because i am lazy and am out of timers LOL
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Why go 24 hours lights on??
- Thread starter thcrefugee
- Start date
guambomb813
Member
good sharing, glad to see more people who are feel theyre plants benefit from it. I gotta say i've been got my eco dialed decently in now and so I guess now is a better time for me to try to run a garden with 24 and take pictures to see.
But I feel that to accurately see the difference you gotta have the cuttings start off at the same level - this is something I did not know to do before now it's just how I clone. Particularly the level starches(carbohydrates) because the cuttings with the most starches will root easier and stay vigorous and healthy throughout the hormone change and quickly grow once vegetation has begun compared to one cutting that was low (some i've found have little to none) on starches. These cuttings can take 2-3x the amount of time to root due to the fact that he necessary starches to complete the hormone switch aren't present. which when the plant becomes stressed trying to stay alive and also change hormones to root it will for sure have weakened cell wall structure and then can be more susceptible to pathogens if allowed. With the weakened cell walls if the plants "immune" system could potentially cause more damage then good by boosting the defenses into overdrive.
anyways sorry boys can't smoke during the week so weekend comes and i get a blunt in me and i rant!
But if your interested in knowing which of your chosen cuttings are the most potent in starches you can first just choose by looking for the ones that look nice and healthy green but has a real firm feel (not like the woody shell that the immune system builds for defense).
Then you can determine even further by doing whats called the iodine starch test. by mixing iodine with potassium iodide you can dip the ends of each cutting in it and the more starch will stain a darker color and the less starch i have seen little to no color stain.
maybe something to try if your bored, high, high and bored...
-.-
That's something new. I'll probably hit you up in pm when I'm not high to ask more
that was good info.
Do you know if purple in the leaf stem means anything? I have been told it is a sign of good energy/starches?????
I have from research found that your lower shoots have more hormones for rooting. So if you find a lower good looker it'll make a good cutting,
combined with the above info from Guam, which is awesome, should have more success
statusquo
Member
Great example of a potential hidden variable a lot of us, I know I did, might miss in regards to analyzing photoperiods' effects on cannabis.
http://www.marijuanagrowing.com/dhtml/books_bible.php
in this book it makes reference to where the best hormones are for cloning. Like a christmas it tree it clearly labels the lower shoots best for rooting.
in this book it makes reference to where the best hormones are for cloning. Like a christmas it tree it clearly labels the lower shoots best for rooting.
guambomb813
Member
for sure would love to swap info.
Rooting hormones such as IBA and NAA come from source tissue, which are leafs. Sink tissue is roots. Rooting hormones are made in leafs and moved to roots, for cuttings (without roots) sink tissue is the basal end.
Spraying rooting hormones as foliar is the better application for cuttings vs. dipping basal end when taking a cutting. But using both gives the best results. I have tested this many times with specific rooting hormones, etc.
Taking cuttings from any area on the plant is the same in terms of rooting hormones, younger leafs are better though, not older.
Jorge is wrong on so many topics it's insane, including this topic and the topic of 24/0. Granted, I am not sure exactly what he wrote, if you can quote the part you are referring to I can better explain what he is most likely getting wrong.
I think a major issue with this thread, and the claim of 24/0 are BS claims by Jorge who doesn't know his ass from a stinky bud. I called him out weeks ago about all the wrong info he writes. For some reason cannabis growers take what he writes as truth and fact without questioning it. He makes assumptions and calls them facts.
Cannabis growers need to start thinking critically, analyzing claims without accepting them at face value; demanding references. Don't just take his word for it, and don't just accept what any book author writes hook-line-and-sinker. The fact he offers zero references to academic lit should speak volumes!
@ guambomb813
I will respond to you tomorrow about your questions regarding studies and data I have collected. And I can offer insight into how to properly conduct tests, etc.
FWIW, I plan to use quantum sensors, photosynthesis chamber, chlorophyll fluorometer, chlorophyll meter, gas chromatography, thin layer chromatography, Brix score (accounting for N, K, irradiance; those factors that affect Brix), testing levels of Rubisco, etc., etc., to conduct testing cannabis on the topic of this thread. Also a really neat tool that measures growth by centimeter per X time period...
Of course, accounting for variables such as those I listed back on page 2 or 3 is important too, ex. Air to Leaf Vapor Pressure Deficit, media-water status, water tension in media, Co2, irradadiance, DLI, SPD (using a spectroradiometer) etc., etc.
I will respond to you tomorrow about your questions regarding studies and data I have collected. And I can offer insight into how to properly conduct tests, etc.
FWIW, I plan to use quantum sensors, photosynthesis chamber, chlorophyll fluorometer, chlorophyll meter, gas chromatography, thin layer chromatography, Brix score (accounting for N, K, irradiance; those factors that affect Brix), testing levels of Rubisco, etc., etc., to conduct testing cannabis on the topic of this thread. Also a really neat tool that measures growth by centimeter per X time period...
Of course, accounting for variables such as those I listed back on page 2 or 3 is important too, ex. Air to Leaf Vapor Pressure Deficit, media-water status, water tension in media, Co2, irradadiance, DLI, SPD (using a spectroradiometer) etc., etc.
guambomb813
Member
You know I haven't ever noticed or thought of what the purple is. I'll see on my next starch test! thanks!
That's weird about your research maybe with the variables I have in my room things are not optimum but i've found that on average the lower branches are hit or miss on starch levels being high... so I tend to choose mid-upper more mature branches because for me there seems to be higher chance of getting a branch with higher overall health and starches. (i lst so I guess horizontally higher haha)
But this all could very well due to certain factors of my grow that put me out of the parameters to have what your research shows should have higher starch levels. Interesting enough though now I am determined to figure this out -.-
Sorry if we are going off course here...I find relevance in it all but I can see how some might not see it the same!
guambomb813
Member
Excited to hear it. I know my way around science here and there and am learning everyday but the terminology you use is like alot of these botany books and articles I have read....I must read them over and over + alot of googling to be able to comprehend most of what you say. Not like this is a bad thing for you, just means I have alot to learn so teach away, if you don't mind to try to write in terms that might be easier for us who aren't as familiar with the topic at hand I would appreciate it mucho!!!
if it's not too much trouble i'd like a pretty picture in a sense. -.-thanks spurr.
I am pretty sure B.Friendly is citing info from J.Cervantes, but about hormones, not starches (which are metabolites). And par for the course, Jorge is wrong in terms of hormones. Jorge needs step up and learn what is correct and understand what he writes is mostly wrong info.
To your suggestion of about testing starch with the iodine test, it's not quantitative, it's comparative, which is better than nothing. To test starch levels quantitatively why not use something as simple as converting starch to glucose and then measuring the quantity of glucose [1]?
If you want to do test starches with more accuracy and in a quantitative manner, you should use quantitative methods, otherwise the error margin increases due to 'guesstimates' using the iodine test.
[1] See this paper:
"Quantification of starch in plant tissues"
Alison M Smith & Samuel C Zeeman
Nature Protocols 1, 1342 - 1345 (2006)
http://www.nature.com/nprot/journal/v1/n3/full/nprot.2006.232.html
Here is a worthwhile read about why excess starch levels can inhibit biomass production by plant:
Starches are built up in the day in plants, and degraded into carbon at night that is used by the plant to grow. That is another reason why a night time is important (to prevent starch excesses).
Branches of a healthy plants getting sufficient irradiation should have plenty of starches; but branches lower on plants not in direct irradiation will have lower starches. Thus you are correct, taking clones from higher up in the plant is better for starch content.
Arabidopsis thaliana is a "model organism" for plants, its' DNA has been fully sequenced and its an ideal model organism for plants. Like how mice are model organisms for humans in drug trials. Thus data collected from testing Arabidopsis thaliana is valid for most all other plants, including cannabis.
Cannabis isn't special, studies on many other C3 plants are fully usable for cannabis in most cases, especially with Arabidopsis thaliana.
"Starch as a major integrator in the regulation of plant growth"
PNAS June 23, 2009 vol. 106 no. 25 10348-10353
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/25/10348.full.pdf+html
Here are two decent write-ups for using the iodine starch test you wrote about, while not quantitative, it is quasi-quantitative (i.e. comparative):
1. "Testing leaves for starch: the technique"
http://www.practicalbiology.org/are...g-leaves-for-starch-the-technique,73,EXP.html
2. "Photosynthesis: A Controlled Experiment"
Coley, Juana
Rosa Parks Middle School
http://mypages.iit.edu/~smile/bi8904.html
yrs, spurr
Excited to hear it. I know my way around science here and there and am learning everyday but the terminology you use is like alot of these botany books and articles I have read....I must read them over and over + alot of googling to be able to comprehend most of what you say. Not like this is a bad thing for you, just means I have alot to learn so teach away, if you don't mind to try to write in terms that might be easier for us who aren't as familiar with the topic at hand I would appreciate it mucho!!!
thanks spurr.
Hey,
I will try to explain the concepts better so ppl can learn and not feel overwhelmed, sorry. I don't mean to write it in Latin (figuratively), it's just what I am used to doing. If you want me to clarify any points, words, concepts, etc., please feel free to ask. I will help until it becomes clear. The learning curve is a bit steep, but once the curve is surmounted it gravy!
I can't use different terms than I am using because there are no other terms to use, but I try to explain everything fully to better help people.
http://www.bits4farms.co.nz/products/3614-brix_meter_digital_.aspx
Brix Meter Digital, who's used one?
Refractometers (A.K.A Brix Meter) http://www.agriculturesolutions.com/Refractometers-/-Brix-Meters/View-all-products.html
Refractometers are a simple optical instrument that measures the amount of light refracted in a liquid. Refractometers measure on a "Brix" scale and measuring the Brix level of fruits and vegetables is very important because it is a great indicator of flavor and quality.
The higher the brix level of your fruits juices is, the higher the dissolved solids in the foods juices such as sucrose, fructose, vitamins, minerals, amino acids, proteins, hormones and all the other goodness that the plant puts into the food is. It is estimated that in a healthy fruit or vegetable, approximately 80% of the brix is represented by the natural sugars which give the food its great flavor and goodness. It is believed by many people to be the best indicator of quality available in one quick and simple test.
Refractometers are a standard piece of equipment for many Agronomists and is a standard tool used in the fruit and citrus industries. Juice factories and vineyards especially use refractometers so they can measure the level of flavors in the juices and blend them to consistent brix level every time. Many companies are also now offering big bonuses to farmers who can produce high brix fruits because it means they have to add less artificial sweetener to the juices which are devoid of any nutritional value (unlike natural sugars).
We hope that someday, every kitchen will have a refractometer so people can test the quality and nutrient density of the foods they are consuming.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=garden&field-keywords=Brix+Meters+&x=9&y=22 not sure which one is worth buying or if it's at all worth buying one, but I am guessing the info is useful
What say you????????
Brix Meter Digital, who's used one?
Refractometers (A.K.A Brix Meter) http://www.agriculturesolutions.com/Refractometers-/-Brix-Meters/View-all-products.html
Refractometers are a simple optical instrument that measures the amount of light refracted in a liquid. Refractometers measure on a "Brix" scale and measuring the Brix level of fruits and vegetables is very important because it is a great indicator of flavor and quality.
The higher the brix level of your fruits juices is, the higher the dissolved solids in the foods juices such as sucrose, fructose, vitamins, minerals, amino acids, proteins, hormones and all the other goodness that the plant puts into the food is. It is estimated that in a healthy fruit or vegetable, approximately 80% of the brix is represented by the natural sugars which give the food its great flavor and goodness. It is believed by many people to be the best indicator of quality available in one quick and simple test.
Refractometers are a standard piece of equipment for many Agronomists and is a standard tool used in the fruit and citrus industries. Juice factories and vineyards especially use refractometers so they can measure the level of flavors in the juices and blend them to consistent brix level every time. Many companies are also now offering big bonuses to farmers who can produce high brix fruits because it means they have to add less artificial sweetener to the juices which are devoid of any nutritional value (unlike natural sugars).
We hope that someday, every kitchen will have a refractometer so people can test the quality and nutrient density of the foods they are consuming.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=garden&field-keywords=Brix+Meters+&x=9&y=22 not sure which one is worth buying or if it's at all worth buying one, but I am guessing the info is useful
What say you????????
Anything worth knowing can be taught in a simplified way because we are talking methods here. People can talk around shit all they want but until they say "do this" or "try that" it has no meaning. If you have advice give it, end of story.
Brix meters are good, esp. good digital ones, but not for testing starch because Brix meters can't distinguish starches well at all. Brix score is a way to judge the relative health of a plant via. (mostly) sugars, healthy cannabis should have a score of ~10-15+. Brix score is affected by many factors, thus we need to account for them for most accuracy, such as N and K levels in sap with "Cardy" meters, irradiance, etc.
Brix meters are good to use, but their value for cannabis growing is somewhat limited. They are better used for food crops like applies, grapes, etc., where high Brix means more flavor.
I have a buddy who has been testing with very good Brix meters, Cardy twin nitrate and Cardy potassium meters, etc, for many years. He grows huge outdoor plots. He too sees limited value of Brix score after testing brix for many years for various experiments.
When using Brix meter a good goal is try to and keep the score at or above 10 for cannabis.
guambomb813
Member
guambomb813
Member
Thanks for all the new info, stoked to read up on it.
I know you can't change terminology you use but you can alter the way you express it if you choose to. Im mainly talking about your earlier debates with japan, I found alot of points you were trying to make were over my head. I actually enjoy reading something that is over my head because it gives me drive to understand better, how else does one learn?
-.-
I know you can't change terminology you use but you can alter the way you express it if you choose to. Im mainly talking about your earlier debates with japan, I found alot of points you were trying to make were over my head. I actually enjoy reading something that is over my head because it gives me drive to understand better, how else does one learn?
-.-
guambomb813
Member
Spurr, do you think that quantifying the starch test through the glucose as you've described would be practical in our usage in quickly finding the best of the cuttings we take? I'm not sure of all methods that can be used to quantify the test in a practical manor in terms of clone selection so if you could further explain?
statusquo
Member
@guambomb813: Spurr has some other posts/links in a different thread where DIL and other terms like that are fully explained in detail. I too was confused at first but once I read the external primary sources I had a much better understanding. IIRC spurr links to another thread earlier in this one where he has a bunch of references. The specific article I'm mentioning is titled something along the lines of: Effects of Prolonged Photoperiod, Spectral Quality, and Light Dosage
@Japan: "Anything worth knowing can be taught in a simplified way because we are talking methods here." I'm sorry but this is just flagrantly wrong There are many things that are worth knowing that aren't just simplified 'teks'. In fact, it is because people just want these simple 'teks' with no background context/understanding that so much misinformation and non-idyllic methods are spread. Lastly, spurr doesn't come out and explicitly say "do this" but if you dedicate the necessary time, you can infer what to do based on the information.
@Japan: "Anything worth knowing can be taught in a simplified way because we are talking methods here." I'm sorry but this is just flagrantly wrong
There are many things that are worth knowing that aren't just simplified 'teks'. In fact, it is because people just want these simple 'teks' with no background context/understanding that so much misinformation and non-idyllic methods are spread. Lastly, spurr doesn't come out and explicitly say "do this" but if you dedicate the necessary time, you can infer what to do based on the information.
