Found this, was hoping to get some feedback from the super growers out there. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110804212931.htm
Why 'Clones' are not identical to the mother plant
- Thread starter Frosy
- Start date
Mutations are a part of evolution... and marijuana is a pretty amazing plant in its ability to withstand time. Goes to figure that a plant that can produce both male & female flower parts, might also have the ability to alter itself generation to generation, in clone form & at the cellular level, but manifests in plant growth characteristics. Potential pain in the ass for us, but pretty cool of the plant itself.
Isn't this how UK Cheese supposedly came about... a mutated runt of a Skunk #1 clone that had been around for years & years & years in some dudes closet? Drifted to whatever it is now...???
Isn't this how UK Cheese supposedly came about... a mutated runt of a Skunk #1 clone that had been around for years & years & years in some dudes closet? Drifted to whatever it is now...???
D
dramamine
great article...thanks for posting
Duplicate
Member
This does not apply to taking cuttings from Cannabis.
Cannabis plants, when propagated from clone or meristematic cuttings, do not show the genetic variation (ie somaclonal variation) being discussed in that paper.
The paper specifically discusses regenerants... regeneration is a term used to describe the process of plants going from callus (akin to stem cells, in plants- undifferentiated cells), and subsequent organogenesis into shoots.
This process brings plants from shoots, back down to groups of single cells, and multiplies the cells as callus. After specific treatment with cytokinin and auxin-like chemicals, the cells can be coaxed into forming shoots again. There is work going on currently in Cannabis to determine whether this process induces mutations, or somaclonal variation, as it does in some other species.
However, if the meristem is preserved, as it is when we take cuttings in drug cannabis, there is no genetic mutation and a clone is exactly that- a clone with identical rates of cellular respiration, and production of secondary compounds like terpenes and cannabinoids when compared with the donor or mother plant.
Hope that helps,
-Chimera
Cannabis plants, when propagated from clone or meristematic cuttings, do not show the genetic variation (ie somaclonal variation) being discussed in that paper.
The paper specifically discusses regenerants... regeneration is a term used to describe the process of plants going from callus (akin to stem cells, in plants- undifferentiated cells), and subsequent organogenesis into shoots.
This process brings plants from shoots, back down to groups of single cells, and multiplies the cells as callus. After specific treatment with cytokinin and auxin-like chemicals, the cells can be coaxed into forming shoots again. There is work going on currently in Cannabis to determine whether this process induces mutations, or somaclonal variation, as it does in some other species.
However, if the meristem is preserved, as it is when we take cuttings in drug cannabis, there is no genetic mutation and a clone is exactly that- a clone with identical rates of cellular respiration, and production of secondary compounds like terpenes and cannabinoids when compared with the donor or mother plant.
Hope that helps,
-Chimera
I hope you are kidding bigbag... cytokinins and auxins are not in the same family, and cytokinin is not an auxin. They are both plant hormones, but have different roles within the system. Perhaps I should have been more clear above and typed cytokinin-like and auxin-like molecules.
From plant-hormones.info:
Nature of Auxins
The term auxin is derived from the Greek word auxein which means to grow. Compounds are generally considered auxins if they can be characterized by their ability to induce cell elongation in stems and otherwise resemble indoleacetic acid (the first auxin isolated) in physiological activity. Auxins usually affect other processes in addition to cell elongation of stem cells but this characteristic is considered critical of all auxins and thus "helps" define the hormone (Arteca, 1996; Mauseth, 1991; Raven, 1992; Salisbury and Ross, 1992).
Nature of Cytokinins
Cytokinins are compounds with a structure resembling adenine which promote cell division and have other similar functions to kinetin. Kinetin was the first cytokinin discovered and so named because of the compounds ability to promote cytokinesis (cell division). Though it is a natural compound, It is not made in plants, and is therefore usually considered a "synthetic" cytokinin (meaning that the hormone is synthesized somewhere other than in a plant). The most common form of naturally occurring cytokinin in plants today is called zeatin which was isolated from corn (Zea mays).
-Chimera
From plant-hormones.info:
Nature of Auxins
The term auxin is derived from the Greek word auxein which means to grow. Compounds are generally considered auxins if they can be characterized by their ability to induce cell elongation in stems and otherwise resemble indoleacetic acid (the first auxin isolated) in physiological activity. Auxins usually affect other processes in addition to cell elongation of stem cells but this characteristic is considered critical of all auxins and thus "helps" define the hormone (Arteca, 1996; Mauseth, 1991; Raven, 1992; Salisbury and Ross, 1992).
Nature of Cytokinins
Cytokinins are compounds with a structure resembling adenine which promote cell division and have other similar functions to kinetin. Kinetin was the first cytokinin discovered and so named because of the compounds ability to promote cytokinesis (cell division). Though it is a natural compound, It is not made in plants, and is therefore usually considered a "synthetic" cytokinin (meaning that the hormone is synthesized somewhere other than in a plant). The most common form of naturally occurring cytokinin in plants today is called zeatin which was isolated from corn (Zea mays).
-Chimera
cannagardens
Member
Can one clone a cannabis plant for decades or more without there being any mutations?
No, mutations are part of the natural process. They are a 'mistake' in the DNA duplication process where a DNA strand is not replicated identically, as it replicates.
The mutation rate is extremely low, and it occurs at random throughout the genome. What this means is it is extremely unlikely that the mutation will occur in a gene that is important in terms of our goals as cultivators. Often, the mutation will occur in a region of the chromosome that sits between genes (intergenic spacer regions), and thus will have no effect in terms of the plant's performance. Even if the mutation does hit a gene, due to the redundancy in the genetic code, there is a chance the mutation will have no effect... this is known as a silent mutation. Othertimes, the mutation affects one copy of the gene, but the homologous chromosome still has a functional copy of the gene and again there is no altered phenotype. This type of mutation will not be seen until a down-line individual inherits 2 copies of the defunct allele, and the condition is shown.
Anyhow, to answer your question yes mutations happen, but the chance of it affecting an trait of importance is low... but not out of the realm of possibility.
-Chimera
The mutation rate is extremely low, and it occurs at random throughout the genome. What this means is it is extremely unlikely that the mutation will occur in a gene that is important in terms of our goals as cultivators. Often, the mutation will occur in a region of the chromosome that sits between genes (intergenic spacer regions), and thus will have no effect in terms of the plant's performance. Even if the mutation does hit a gene, due to the redundancy in the genetic code, there is a chance the mutation will have no effect... this is known as a silent mutation. Othertimes, the mutation affects one copy of the gene, but the homologous chromosome still has a functional copy of the gene and again there is no altered phenotype. This type of mutation will not be seen until a down-line individual inherits 2 copies of the defunct allele, and the condition is shown.
Anyhow, to answer your question yes mutations happen, but the chance of it affecting an trait of importance is low... but not out of the realm of possibility.
-Chimera
Damn, you beat me to it. I just saw this at ScienceDaily, and I almost posted a duplicate thread. Glad I checked first.
G
guest5703
Damn Chimera, sweet info!
guerilla415
Member
grow cannabis plants from seed well and you will harvest good meds
grow cannabis plants from clones well and you will get almost the same good meds every time.
still comes down to grower, genetics, and environment.
take care and stay safe
guerilla
grow cannabis plants from clones well and you will get almost the same good meds every time.
still comes down to grower, genetics, and environment.
take care and stay safe
guerilla
GoneRooty
Member
Cytokinins are found in most higher plants, mosses, fungi, bacteria and in transfer RNA (tRNA) in prokaryotes and eukaryotes. There are ~200 natural and synthetic cytokinins.
A little trivia about auxins, Agent Orange was actually a mixture of 2 different auxins:
2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-Trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T)
A little trivia about auxins, Agent Orange was actually a mixture of 2 different auxins:
2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-Trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T)
pezmasterelite
Member
Structural mutations of clones?
Structural mutations of clones?
In the past myself and other friends have noticed structural changes in certain clones of some of our strains( White Rhino x Northern Lights, Sensi Star, Juicy Fruits ).
The plants where started from seed and then held as mothers for some time. We would cut around 60-100 clones from each mother until they were weak and then we took a new plant for the next mother, for 3-4 years.
Randomly we would obtain a White Northern clone which would naturally bush out with many equal height tops, where normally it is very straight.
The Sensi Star plant has a wicked lean to it, no matter the amount or time of holding it up. Once I had a perfectly straight clone with perfectly straight branches. It was so straight I thought it was not SS until it flowered.
Lastly, the JF randomly threw out a clone which had roots 1.5 times as thick and the plant had buds which where denser, flat on the tops, and darker in color, when compared to the ordinary clone.
Are these random structural changes I have noticed in ratios about 1/50-1/100 mutations or are they phenotypic changes caused by the environment?
I have never tried to clone the weird plant to see if it persists, but in some instances I think it may.
Any info would be appreciated, thanks in advance.
Frosy, nice thread.
Structural mutations of clones?
In the past myself and other friends have noticed structural changes in certain clones of some of our strains( White Rhino x Northern Lights, Sensi Star, Juicy Fruits ).
The plants where started from seed and then held as mothers for some time. We would cut around 60-100 clones from each mother until they were weak and then we took a new plant for the next mother, for 3-4 years.
Randomly we would obtain a White Northern clone which would naturally bush out with many equal height tops, where normally it is very straight.
The Sensi Star plant has a wicked lean to it, no matter the amount or time of holding it up. Once I had a perfectly straight clone with perfectly straight branches. It was so straight I thought it was not SS until it flowered.
Lastly, the JF randomly threw out a clone which had roots 1.5 times as thick and the plant had buds which where denser, flat on the tops, and darker in color, when compared to the ordinary clone.
Are these random structural changes I have noticed in ratios about 1/50-1/100 mutations or are they phenotypic changes caused by the environment?
I have never tried to clone the weird plant to see if it persists, but in some instances I think it may.
Any info would be appreciated, thanks in advance.
Frosy, nice thread.
Finally. Someone who knows this in this forum. Praise the saints.
