Why 'Clones' are not identical to the mother plant

[Crusader Rabbit]

A single mutation is not going to take over any clone. A mutation occurs in a single strand of DNA or RNA within a single cell. Only if that cell reproduces will the mutation be replicated. I've never heard of cannabis cancer and so can think of no way for a mutation to take over an entire plant. Think of it, a single cutting is composed of a gazillion cells with identical DNA. Why should an error in a single strand within the nucleus of one of these cells cause the entire plant to change? It's not going to happen.

Now if a mutation occurs within a sex cell which contributes the DNA to a seed or pollen, then that single mutation can become part of a new cell created in fertilization. The individual seed birthed from this sprouts a single plant which will contain that single mutation within every one of it's countless cells. That's why the dentist's assistant covers your crotch with a lead apron before irradiating you.

 

[mofeta]

In the past myself and other friends have noticed structural changes in certain clones of some of our strains( White Rhino x Northern Lights, Sensi Star, Juicy Fruits ).

The plants where started from seed and then held as mothers for some time. We would cut around 60-100 clones from each mother until they were weak and then we took a new plant for the next mother, for 3-4 years.

Randomly we would obtain a White Northern clone which would naturally bush out with many equal height tops, where normally it is very straight.

The Sensi Star plant has a wicked lean to it, no matter the amount or time of holding it up. Once I had a perfectly straight clone with perfectly straight branches. It was so straight I thought it was not SS until it flowered.

Lastly, the JF randomly threw out a clone which had roots 1.5 times as thick and the plant had buds which where denser, flat on the tops, and darker in color, when compared to the ordinary clone..

I too have seen this type of thing. I also have seen reports here about similar stuff, I seem to remember some people reporting how they got a percentage of "dud" cuts from their mothers, that were phenotypically different than other cuts from the same mother. I know of a BBxC99 mother that the cuts can reliably "switched" to a different phenotype. One phenotype, the "normal" one is very similar to C99 structurally, and is on the sweet side. The other is more "indica" like, with bloated buds, large bracts and a musky, skunky, catpissy smell and taste. It also has a flattened, striated stem and whorled phyllotaxy.

The mom is kept in organic soil, and exhibits the "normal" phenotype. Cuts taken and grown in organic soil retain this phenotype. Cuts taken from the same mom and grown hydroponically, and really "pushed" with strong nutes and high light intensity switch to the other phenotype. The first sign of the switch is a broadening and flattening of the stem, and the emergence of whorled phllotaxy. The growth is more vigorous in general. As the clusters develop, the bracts are much larger than the normal phenotype and resin is more skunky and earthy. If you examine the two side by side, you would swear they came from different plants. I don't know if a cut that has been switched to the second phenotype can be switched back to the normal one.

Are these random structural changes I have noticed in ratios about 1/50-1/100 mutations or are they phenotypic changes caused by the environment?.

I suspect that what you are describing, and what I described above are epigenentically controlled changes. They are not mutations (change in genotype), they are changes in the way an identical genotype is expressed phenotypically due to environmental signals to epigenetic switches that alter gene expression.

I have never tried to clone the weird plant to see if it persists, but in some instances I think it may.

I hope you do this. The guy with the cut I described above is going to do the same thing with his. I am really eager to find out if the switch persists, or can be switched back and forth.

 

[Guest 150314]

Are these random structural changes I have noticed in ratios about 1/50-1/100 mutations or are they phenotypic changes caused by the environment?

From my experience I would say the latter, if you run a monocrop you will see plants/branches that look slightly different from the same run. A room will have microclimates, there are just so many variables to complicate things.. time of year etc..

When you monocrop and start running number it becomes really apparent, once in awhile out of a tray of cuttings I take there will be a few plants that dont branch like the others even if they were all cut from tops of the same mom. I attribute it to different levels of growth hormones?

What do you think chimera? I don't know the science behind this, these are all just things I have noticed and pieced together in my head.

 

[mofeta]

Hey pezmasterelite, I forgot to ask: Have you noticed any stem fasciation like I described in any of the cuts you were talking about?

 

[thefatman]

Damn Chimera, sweet info!

Ditto.

 

[pezmasterelite]

stem fasciation?

stem fasciation?

I always thought it was phenotypic variations, I usually only run 8-16 of one strain, so I rarely see this phenomenon.

I would love to post a side-by-side of it, only have to wait until I see it again, probably sometime this year, I am selling a bit of clones.

I am not sure I have noticed this, where would you look for it, the main top, or side branches? I have noticed fasciation on tops from light damage or nutrent toxicity, but I don't think I have seen it randomly.

 

[mofeta]

Hi pez

I wasn't very clear, what I meant was did the cuts that were different than normal (bushy instead of straight, straight instead of leaning etc.) have any fasciation.

Fasciated stems are flattened and weird looking. I have an old stem around that is a good example. I'll try to dig it up and post a pic.

Thanks for the reply

 

[Aerokush101]

This is good info, especially from Chimera, but Chimera, I have a question. Why is it that we "my friends" and I have a Pure Kush plant that seems to be 2 different types of plants in the clones. Well, for further explanation, one type is the usual PK, thick stems, robust leaves, hardy, nothing wrong with the plant. Then, there are the freak clones, the ones that are a little deformed looking, thinner stems, airy type of growth seems to be the "TREASURE" among clones. Now before you begin to think that I am some moron that doesn't know what he's talking about, believe me it took balls for me to bring this up. Because after I acquired the original clones and passed them out to friends, they both reported back to me regarding their findings of different phenotypes in the same clones...

I informed them both that they had either mislabeled the clones or something was significantly different with the feeding of the plants. I found the same things had happened to me with the clones, a skinny, weird growing plant within my PKs was the more potent and desired plant when identified. So our next step was to separate the different plants from the others and take clones consistently from that plant. But, with no success, even the deformed plants would show the same 2 different variations of growth. This all came from 1 clone that was sent to me from a friend in Oregon. Any explanations? I have pictures of this in my old picture forum if you would like to see.

 

[mofeta]

This is good info, especially from Chimera, but Chimera, I have a question. Why is it that we "my friends" and I have a Pure Kush plant that seems to be 2 different types of plants in the clones. Well, for further explanation, one type is the usual PK, thick stems, robust leaves, hardy, nothing wrong with the plant. Then, there are the freak clones, the ones that are a little deformed looking, thinner stems, airy type of growth seems to be the "TREASURE" among clones. Now before you begin to think that I am some moron that doesn't know what he's talking about, believe me it took balls for me to bring this up. Because after I acquired the original clones and passed them out to friends, they both reported back to me regarding their findings of different phenotypes in the same clones...

I informed them both that they had either mislabeled the clones or something was significantly different with the feeding of the plants. I found the same things had happened to me with the clones, a skinny, weird growing plant within my PKs was the more potent and desired plant when identified. So our next step was to separate the different plant for the others and take clones consistently from that plant. But, with no success, even that plant would show the same 2 different variations of growth. This all came from 1 clone that was sent to me from a friend in Oregon. Any explanations? I have pictures of this in my old picture forum if you would like to see.

Hi Aerokush

It sounds like you are talking about a similar phenomenon that pezmasterlite and I are talking about. Very interesting! I am particularly interested in the fact that changes didn't persist in the clones of the "rogue clones" (for lack of a better term), and that both variations were still expressable.

Have you noticed any environmental triggers for the switch?

Have you noticed any stem fasciation or similar morphological abnormalities in your rogue cuts?

Thanks

mofeta

 

[Aerokush101]

Hi Aerokush

It sounds like you are talking about a similar phenomenon that pezmasterlite and I are talking about. Very interesting! I am particularly interested in the fact that changes didn't persist in the clones of the "rogue clones" (for lack of a better term), and that both variations were still expressable.

Have you noticed any environmental triggers for the switch?

Have you noticed any stem fasciation or similar morphological abnormalities in your rogue cuts?

Thanks

mofeta

Honestly, we don't do anything different from and the other. Actually we don't even know if we have that expression of clone until it vegs and becomes 2' or 3' tall. The only thing is that plant is thinner, and a bit slower than the rest. But over time you get one, and its a celebration. Like, "damn, I got 2 this time..." We normally keep that smoke to show off with friends...

The difference is amazing, slightly more potent, more aggressive high, tastier, and the buds are slightly longer, or "stretched" looking. Funny how things come and go, we rarely run the PK like we used to, but she will never leave my veg room.

 

[mofeta]

Honestly, we don't do anything different from and the other. Actually we don't even know if we have that expression of clone until it vegs and becomes 2' or 3' tall. The only thing is that plant is thinner, and a bit slower than the rest.

Wow that's really interesting. I was going to ask if it was individuals in a crop, or the whole crop. It seems like the change just happens spontaneously in yours, since only a few plants of a group under basically identical environmental conditions switch.

The difference is amazing, slightly more potent, more aggressive high, tastier, and the buds are slightly longer, or "stretched" looking. Funny how things come and go, we rarely run the PK like we used to, but she will never leave my veg room.

Yeah that is what got me about my friends BBxC99 rogue, it didn't just look different, the cannabinoid/terpene profile is very different. It smells and tastes different. The high is different. Not within the normal range of variation you'll find from a normal clone crop. Very different.

Thanks for your input. I hope more people chime in with their experiences with this kind of thing

 

[Aerokush101]

no problem, I have been very reluctant to comment on such an issue. Good Luck to all.

 

[mofeta]

no problem, I have been very reluctant to comment on such an issue. Good Luck to all.

Well I'm glad you did. You are the only person I know of to take a cut of one of the unusual clones and see what happened. I think that your results indicate that it is not a sport (mutation).

 

[pezmasterelite]

Hi all,

I have been reading Marijuana Botany recently by Robert Connell Clarke. He refers to the sports as being able to pass the mutated genes down in their progeny.

I am trying to think now if I have any seeds around which could be from mutated clones, but I don't think they would be separate from other seeds of the usual clones I have collected from the same strains.

I plan on crossing a pair of plants next time I see a mutant clone. I always have males around and usually one flowering for some project. I will cross an ordinary and mutated clone from whichever strain I see, probably Sensi Star first as the straight-up sport shows up more frequent than any others I have seen in my plants. Then I will grow two test batches to see if the phenotypes are different between the seed batches from each the ordinary and mutated clone.

If this works, it would be quite beneficial for others with much nicer cuts and much nicer mutations than structural changes. I think it may, but does anybody with the PK wish to knock up their favorite plant?

 

[Jah Leon]

DNA in cuttings can change. This is because the role of breeding and its pheno type development is created by the code P=G+E . P=phenotype G= Genetics and E= environment

This means that mutation always do happen as explained by Chimera but what is not mention is mutations can be progressive or recessive which means that plants can mutate in a positive or negative way to cope with its environment. The negative mutation on recessive genes is called sliding. This is why some clone only strains disappear.

Bless; love and gratitude

 

[gloryoskie]

I noticed cuttings taken from different branches of the same mom grow out differently in flower. Also I noticed cuttings from that same mom were more robust after I let her get bigger under more light. Is this just a silly notion, I don't know. Always learning.

 

[ShroomDr]

From a physics or philosophical view, nothing is as it was, once separated from its 'mother', it is no longer identical to it...

However, in practicality, if your eating apples, or naval oranges, ya might want to investigate the origins of your fruit, instead of insinuating noticeable genetic drift from properly taken clones...

Your granny smith apples DO NOT come from granny smith apple seeds.

 

[bombadil.360]

did I miss it or no one mentioned the most obvious thing that differentiates cuttings from their moms?

no, not mutations...

cotyledons, yes, cuttings never have them. parents from seed do.

does it matter?

who knows.

peace

 

[*mr.mike*]

It goes without saying that cuttings can be different on a genotypical as well as phenotypical matter.

Cannabis has plenty of transposons ready to do work at ANY time. These can quickly and noticeably change some characteristic of your growing plant "overnight." Stresses on the plant, such as heat, too much UV, micronute "poisoning," etc., can all activate transposon systems, creating mutations...

Two of the easiest to note (IMHO) trait changes due to transpositional rearrangement are in isoprenoid synthesis and sex ratios.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

A whole three pages without a mention of spontaneous changes in other 'clones', like the spur mutations in apples......aren't we an insulated community?