Why are people against pruning?

[FRIENDinDEED]

I'm pretty sure defofoliating a plant is a waste of energy for the system ''plant''.
The carbon-based molecules, created synthesizing them starting from light energy and elements, and then used to create tissues and other things, are been removed artificially.This, in the logic that no energy comes from nothing,tell me that I'm destroying a part of that converted energy.

I'm pretty sure too, that this kind of stress lead to a metabolism modification in a plant.Hormones are a very important key, and I don't exclude that an alteration could lead at inusual expectations, as a massive flowering could be.

We don't really know what a plant does when defoiled, but we can observe it.From what can I see, from grassot's pics, a defolied plant needs more days to vegetate as it needs to recover lost leaves,and this makes sense to me.

6 days and it seems to be not so bigger than it was,but if this make a good flowering, it could worth the veg time in some conditions.

However,as already said, in that recovering week, the plant probably is more prone to be attacked from pests and she also has several wounds opened and if some fungus is in the room, the infection could be a real thing to worry about.




It make sense VD.
Plant has a X quantity of energy comes from the sun and a X quantity of nutrient elements come from the soil.

Combining this two,it can synthesize an X quantity molecules to build the apples.

Example:

The tree has 100 ''coins'' to build apple. every small size apple costs 5 ''coins'', the bigger costs 10.So depending on how the flowering and pollinating went, the tree can build 20 small apples or 10 big apples.Finally the weight will be similar.

i highlighted what stood out to me for my comment, since i never thought of it in this way, for those of you who want to try it and arent willing to sacrifice a plant or two to try it out until you are told more information, think of it as taking one step back in order to take two steps forward.

i refer to grassot's pic because , hell, his plants looked like they recovered better than mine have.

when i started to defoliate, i never thought to do it at the vegetative stage from that far in the beginning, i always defoliated a week or two before i switched 12/12.

and being totally honest, there is a whole lot of horticultural jargon being tossed around that i am not familiar with and thats cool if your knowledge of horticulture is at that level, BUT for those of you that dont know how and where those terms and vocabulary apply, i implore you to TRY IT YOURSELF!! its a simple technique with great benefits, right up there with bending, twisting, topping, scrogging and the like.

DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT! im not asking anyone to "believe" me or go out on leap of faith because of what im "saying" im asking you to go out on a limb because of what ive experienced as have soo many others.

when i read ppl trying to debunk something its ok, that type of thing is gonna happen, but when its something that ive done myself and i read ppl writing things that shoot it down before its even given a chance when i know of the benefits i just cant stand by and say/ respond with nothing.

but you know what, its something i have to stop anyway, im a bit of a debater and i can go toe to toe with a topic i have knowledge and experience about and this is a topic i can throw experience and pictures at till my crop comes in. your grow, your choice ultimately

im out ya'll, happy growing to all

 

[mad librettist]

why would I need to try for myself, when I have people to try it for me, with pics?

Surely we can just get measurements from people who are trying the technique?

I like the pics, because I get to see how a person interprets it. In this case, someone posted pics of low net growth after defoliation, yet that same person insisted the pics show good results. How am I supposed to take this, other than with the usual grain of salt? It seems to me that on a regular basis some kind of radical technique shows up with its own devotees.

I've learned here on IC that a person's words need to be matched up to a picture, so that I can figure out how to interpret the words, and how to approach their undocumented claims. For instance, considering the claims that go with the defoliation pics in this thread, I am very unlikely to believe accounts of fast growth or improved structure without more pics and data.

I will, however, gladly and freely believe that cannabis and other plants are amazing organisms that can recover from a defoliation disaster. When a plant rebuilds, it can sometimes do so very quickly - the recovery is much faster than normal growth would have been. This is truly impressive, and perhaps accounts for the impression that defoliation is productive. Also accounts for why people "need to see for themselves" rather than rely on data and metrics. Measuring things is objective, and will show us without fault whether a given technique correlates with increased production. To get the subjective effect from watching a plant recover, you have to be there.

 

[grassott]

OK I got some good news for the leaf lovers, but very bad news for me.

My girls are having a period or summat by the looks of things. I xplanted them into hempy buckets yesterday, only to check them this morning and their leaves are as droopy as hell.

Say FrienDinDeed, does this happen to your defol'd crop often? It seemed like they was recovering nicely from their defoli just before the xplant. I should never assume things I guess.

Also, I ran outta perlite as I was xplanting them in their hempy buckets which is a bummer. So instead of 6 buckets I have to use 5. Gotta get me some perlite ASAP!

Oh this experiment is a lonely sport

 

[grassott]

this is where defoli can take you lol


[YOUTUBEIF]TPufcG3q9ek&feature=related[/YOUTUBEIF]

I wanted to watch the video but it doesn't seem to work

Oh and you asked about my lights earlier. VEG: 70w MH and 280w worth of cfl lighting. In flower I use a 400w hps at the moment.

Oh I get the joke now very funny

 

[GanjaPharma]

the solar panel analogy would work if:
solar panels got less efficient as they grew larger.
old solar panels shaded out your budsites and kept them from hardening and developing.
plants ran on electricity.

defoliation and pruning of foodcrops for bigger table ready produce is as old as rome. (roma tomatoes have been hand defoliated for over 2000 years)

mebe its best to look at defoliation from a broader agricultural point of view rather than a ganjacentric approach, when deciding if there is potential in the technique.

heres a nice read. a study on cabernet sauvignon that perfectly parallels the essential question this thread is asking. http://www.sasev.org/journal-sajev/sajev-articles/volume-12-1/art3%20quality%20characteristics%20of%20vitis%20vinifera%20grapes.pdf

at the end of the day, i have stopped advocating defoliation ...mainly because the debate is so focused on dogma rather than experience. people ask me, and i tell em "ya it works great. dont try it."
if they are anything like me, they will see for themselves.

 

[grassott]

Yeah Ganja that's what I'm doing with this experiment at the moment. Trying it and seeing it for myself. Kinda shitting my pants at the moment though. The girls got that "droopy leaf" syndrome as if they're getting me back for giving them a massacre

 

[VerdantGreen]

the solar panel analogy would work if:
solar panels got less efficient as they grew larger.
old solar panels shaded out your budsites and kept them from hardening and developing.
plants ran on electricity.

defoliation and pruning of foodcrops for bigger table ready produce is as old as rome. (roma tomatoes have been hand defoliated for over 2000 years)

mebe its best to look at defoliation from a broader agricultural point of view rather than a ganjacentric approach, when deciding if there is potential in the technique.

heres a nice read. a study on cabernet sauvignon that perfectly parallels the essential question this thread is asking. http://www.sasev.org/journal-sajev/... characteristics of vitis vinifera grapes.pdf

at the end of the day, i have stopped advocating defoliation ...mainly because the debate is so focused on dogma rather than experience. people ask me, and i tell em "ya it works great. dont try it."
if they are anything like me, they will see for themselves.

nice post, i think one problem is that defoliation is a relative term, and now we have people advocating total defol of the plant numerous times in veg and flower, my thoughts always spring to that extreme when people say defol.
i would agree that older leaves are less efficient and indeed i do remove some older leaves myself if they are in the way of budsites etc but i think of this as keeping things tidy rather than defol.
interesting point about the tomatoes, but tomatoes are fruit and ime the defoliation is to allow sunlight to the fruits in order to ripen them - so not really anything like the extreme defol prescribed above, more like removing older leaves that are on the way of flowers?

the grape study is interesting in that it didnt seem to make much difference -but then again they were removing only a third or so of the leaves.

cheers

VG

 

[grassott]

I see a lot of people advising others to not prune off large, light blocking fan leafs. Just wondering why it is not advised?

Thank you!

Due to the responses to my experiments so far, I think it boils down to one thing. Some people are too afraid to try something. We're all like that as humans to an extent.

Lets take anal sex for example. That's something I'd never try but plenty of my mates tell me how great it is, the girl loves it and blah blah blah. I'm not gonna try it coz I think It'll stink out the bedroom and I don't want her excrement on my manhood. This is my fear.

These leaf lovers fear that the plant's gonna get disease or they're gonna lose there ability to photosynthesise and a string of other fears.

I wont experiment with the anal, but I'll give this leaf thing a go and report my findings in an unbiased manner.

 

[mad librettist]

the solar panel analogy would work if:
solar panels got less efficient as they grew larger.
old solar panels shaded out your budsites and kept them from hardening and developing.
plants ran on electricity.

defoliation and pruning of foodcrops for bigger table ready produce is as old as rome. (roma tomatoes have been hand defoliated for over 2000 years)

mebe its best to look at defoliation from a broader agricultural point of view rather than a ganjacentric approach, when deciding if there is potential in the technique.

heres a nice read. a study on cabernet sauvignon that perfectly parallels the essential question this thread is asking. http://www.sasev.org/journal-sajev/sajev-articles/volume-12-1/art3%20quality%20characteristics%20of%20vitis%20vinifera%20grapes.pdf

at the end of the day, i have stopped advocating defoliation ...mainly because the debate is so focused on dogma rather than experience. people ask me, and i tell em "ya it works great. dont try it."
if they are anything like me, they will see for themselves.

the way you use the word, I defoliate. I remove many leaves and many budsites. probably half or more.

 

[mad librettist]

Lets take anal sex for example. That's something I'd never try but plenty of my mates tell me how great it is, the girl loves it and blah blah blah. I'm not gonna try it coz I think It'll stink out the bedroom and I don't want her excrement on my manhood. This is my fear.

bro, it's totally worth trying. you can get an enema kit and have your partner clean out the pipes before hand. have fun!

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

OK I got some good news for the leaf lovers, but very bad news for me.

My girls are having a period or summat by the looks of things. I xplanted them into hempy buckets yesterday, only to check them this morning and their leaves are as droopy as hell.

Say FrienDinDeed, does this happen to your defol'd crop often? It seemed like they was recovering nicely from their defoli just before the xplant. I should never assume things I guess.

Also, I ran outta perlite as I was xplanting them in their hempy buckets which is a bummer. So instead of 6 buckets I have to use 5. Gotta get me some perlite ASAP!

Oh this experiment is a lonely sport

nah brother, neva happened to mine, but if im not mistaken the hempy bucket is something along the lines of hydro or a slow version of it?

right now im running things in soil less mix, all peat, very lil bone/blood meal, a lil gardenlime, i rely the nutes to come from my waterings/feedings (molasses/budswel/supertea). for my soil less moms (or atleast i am hoping they are) just straight ph"d water with molasses.

i dont know if because its in soil less mix that, that makes some manner of difference, neva ran hempy buckets so not really sure wy they would droop, i would suspect that they will pick back up in no time. if you have to water more often then maybe a hit of some water with light nutes would treat em kindly?

yeah i know, about the experimenting being a lonely thing, thats why i reeeally wish ppl wouldnt just go by other ppls pics, because we all have varying grow styles and situations.

if others would undertake the experiment then we could see defoliation in action in those varying conditions and environments and not only would that data be added to the whole but those individuals maybe the ones to get the better results outside of you or i

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

Due to the responses to my experiments so far, I think it boils down to one thing. Some people are too afraid to try something. We're all like that as humans to an extent.

Lets take anal sex for example. That's something I'd never try but plenty of my mates tell me how great it is, the girl loves it and blah blah blah. I'm not gonna try it coz I think It'll stink out the bedroom and I don't want her excrement on my manhood. This is my fear.

These leaf lovers fear that the plant's gonna get disease or they're gonna lose there ability to photosynthesise and a string of other fears.

I wont experiment with the anal, but I'll give this leaf thing a go and report my findings in an unbiased manner.

i feel you on that bruh, wife and i tried that anal shit and never again!!! hurt her and me.

all we can do is advocate an experienced truth/fact. i willl shout to the rafters 'cause defoliation was the reason i lost alot of my crop a year or two ago messin with some idiot.

had some quality genetics (the white, dabney blue, and cheese -the clone only,UK version!!!!) and they all dies cause i had no room! was defoliating the shit outta everything, had plans set in motion and it all depended on this asshat i had a coop grow with. kept tellin the dude to chop, chop em now, i gots no room left, things are getting root bound, things goota get transplanted into flower NOW! told the cat to give me a key i'll take care of everything, didn't feel comfortable doing it, so all my shit died just kept watering hoping that they would hold on, but came in the grow spot one day and everyone was drooped over dead!

so from that experience alone i know for fact that defoliation works, a lil too well if you ask me! lol

as far as disease, nevah happened to me, not since ive been growing. had to deal with the borg one time but that was my own foolishness (got cocky and brought a big ass SSH mom out into the backyard, got paranoid and brought it back into the cab. . . veeery bad move). nute deficiency, light burn, nute burn but never plant disease.

i have to roflmao, because if someone were to see the state of my plants now they would call them dead bitches walkin' ! lmao just open wounds and sores everywhere 'cause of defoliating! lol

 

[grassott]

OK everyone. I have a strong feeling that certain experienced growers and ICMag moderators are against the way I am sharing my experimental results and the way I am portraying myself. My sole intention is to share the results of my unbiased experiment.

It has been suggested that I post my findings in fewer threads, which is understandable. Therefore, I only intend to share my experiment in this thread and here...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163&page=185 (a lengthy thread and one which has caused much defoliation debate).

I know I can appear rather brash at times, but when I am doing something which I believe has the possibility of benefiting others, I refuse to back down to experienced growers who have x amount of grows under their belts, assuming that I'm some kind of noob (I've been growing on and off for the past 18 years for those of you that don't know me) no matter what the outcome of my experiment will be. I feel that ICMag is becoming like a communist state where a "noob" conducting an experiment has to trod on egg shells in fear of being silenced or worse, even banned.

From now on I refuse to answer to argumentative people throwing their lengthy posts filled with the most boring mathematical/scientific jargon I have ever seen since my college days. This is a ganja growing experiment after all and I wish these guys would smoke one, chill and allow me to conduct my experiment in peace. This would make it much easier to report my findings on ICMag.

Going back to the topic at hand (my experiment) I had (and still have) a real scare. My girls are still droopy so I've flushed them heavily with ph'd water, hoping thatthey will recover. I'll keep you posted. Many thanks for your understanding in this delicate matter.

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

OK everyone. I have a strong feeling that certain experienced growers and ICMag moderators are against the way I am sharing my experimental results and the way I am portraying myself. My sole intention is to share the results of my unbiased experiment.

It has been suggested that I post my findings in fewer threads, which is understandable. Therefore, I only intend to share my experiment in this thread and here...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163&page=185 (a lengthy thread and one which has caused much defoliation debate).

I know I can appear rather brash at times, but when I am doing something which I believe has the possibility of benefiting others, I refuse to back down to experienced growers who have x amount of grows under their belts, assuming that I'm some kind of noob (I've been growing on and off for the past 18 years for those of you that don't know me) no matter what the outcome of my experiment will be. I feel that ICMag is becoming like a communist state where a "noob" conducting an experiment has to trod on egg shells in fear of being silenced or worse, even banned.

From now on I refuse to answer to argumentative people throwing their lengthy posts filled with the most boring mathematical/scientific jargon I have ever seen since my college days. This is a ganja growing experiment after all and I wish these guys would smoke one, chill and allow me to conduct my experiment in peace. This would make it much easier to report my findings on ICMag.

Going back to the topic at hand (my experiment) I had (and still have) a real scare. My girls are still droopy so I've flushed them heavily with ph'd water, hoping thatthey will recover. I'll keep you posted. Many thanks for your understanding in this delicate matter.

i get you man, i been on here for god knws how long and ive seen and dealt with all types.

youve got the guys that just found something out and think they are holy'er than thou, then youve got ppl on here who just found something out and want the wold to benefit from it

youve got the know it all that know more than anyone else and have the "how dare you with your simple farmers knowledge dictate to me a better method!", then youve got the types that know so much that they know they know nothing at all.

i can understand the repetitive thing, ive been guilty of it from time to time myself, but my thing is acutally longevity with posts, yes i can go on and on and on. teh mods do have to keepa reign on things because i , and im sure many others as well, dont want to see another "overgrow.com" flameout here as well.

my story/start is just like everyone elses, you start blazin, get tired of the backalley/hallway bullshit then you start the "trying to find someone thats holding" shuffle. after some time you say fuck it and start to think about growing your own. . .(flash years ahead) . . . then you find your self with years into a site like this (god ive been at this a long time).

keep doing what your doing, after some time i get it, the things that are done on here are done for a reason, although they dont know me i try to get the point across that i am not that "in tune" i dont read the tuo, or uto or tou or whatever it is, on a regular basis, BUT just let me know the where/what/how/who/why i did something wrong and i am more than happy to give them that respect of falling in line. i am who i am, i am a nice guy, i say what i think and will wish you the best of days after it all.

***btw - creators, mods, designers--->

fight the good fight, your doing fine, as long as someone and i mean just one benefits from what you and so many others are saying, then its worth it.

 

[grassott]

^ thanks friend.

On a happier note, I checked on my girls this morning and boy did they look happy. I'm glad I fed them ph'd water. I think they was pissed coz I chopped off the leaves, xplanted them and fed em full stregth nutes, all in one week (hey, I'm still getting this technique dialled in and I'm learning from my mistakes lol).

Now they are just covered in beautiful budsite leaves all pointing upwards. It's weird lol. Peace all.

 

[grassott]

...but if im not mistaken the hempy bucket is something along the lines of hydro or a slow version of it?...

I tell you what mate, I've grown several methods over the years and I'm sticking to hempy buckets now. IMHO it's the most simple method of grow. It's a passive hydro system. No soil is used. The medium I use is 3:1 perlite/vermiculite. Just feed them with passive hydro nutes and away you go. Simply brilliant. The girls get massive as soon as the roots hit the rez. You'll see monsters in my gallery pics of hempies grown under small lights.

If you wanna check out more on this simple grow method, spend some time on this thread...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=98419
It's the shizzzzz

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

I tell you what mate, I've grown several methods over the years and I'm sticking to hempy buckets now. IMHO it's the most simple method of grow. It's a passive hydro system. No soil is used. The medium I use is 3:1 perlite/vermiculite. Just feed them with passive hydro nutes and away you go. Simply brilliant. The girls get massive as soon as the roots hit the rez. You'll see monsters in my gallery pics of hempies grown under small lights.

If you wanna check out more on this simple grow method, spend some time on this thread...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=98419
It's the shizzzzz

ok i remember now that you have reminded me, i remember that you leave a inch or two at teh bottom, that being the rez, so that the roots have something to drink from so they are never really dry.

but in your opininon is it a good method to keep moms with? thats where i am in my grow right now, i need/want a better way to not only get massive moms but keep them aswell.

in the mom section of my veg cab i can keep atleast 8 2gl buckets. right now im still running soilless mix for my moms and i can tell with each grow bag how much growth im gonna get out of it.

im in the middle of transitioning from soil to hydro and wanted to do the same for my mom section as well. wanted to do dwc but dont wanna deal with straight water for that section just in case something does go wrong, i can deal with it with a slower method.

at times i have to leave my grow along for a week, two at the most, i wanted something that can hold up for about a full week, couple of days past if need be.

what say you sir?

 

[grassott]

Hello Friend. I don't keep mothers (I grow perpetually without keeping mothers) but having a mom in a hempy bucket should be ok I should think. I water them every 2 - 3 days. Leaving them unwatered any longer than 4 days is pushing it. I hand water, therefore have no idea on them fancy auto irrigation set ups.

If I was you I'd ask these questions in the hempy thread. Always a friendly bunch of people in there, so someone else might know about leaving them for over a week or two (if it's possible).

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

Hello Friend. I don't keep mothers (I grow perpetually without keeping mothers) but having a mom in a hempy bucket should be ok I should think. I water them every 2 - 3 days. Leaving them unwatered any longer than 4 days is pushing it. I hand water, therefore have no idea on them fancy auto irrigation set ups.

If I was you I'd ask these questions in the hempy thread. Always a friendly bunch of people in there, so someone else might know about leaving them for over a week or two (if it's possible).

yeah thats what ill do then, was gonna think to ask but too tired and busy man, getting updates ready, tweaking my system topping things up keeping males down! lol

well brotha, im done here, it was a good thread to start and i hope it helps a few ppl along the way, as i stated before as long as it helps one or two then its worth it.

stop by the diary once in a while check out what ive got goin on

but i will surely be investigating this hempy thing a lil more. i do remember it and was thinking about doing it but god that shit looks messy as hell and then having to either replace/reuse perilite and vermiculite?! naah, i dont think that one is for me, but god the results are truly tempting though.

see you out there

 

[NeWcS]

Has anyone who used to prune stopped doing it? And why?