Why are people against pruning?

[lost in a sea]

but you wont be able to answer anyone though or prove anything because you havent done a side by side,,,

id just remove the pointless lower budsites rather than the important early fan leaves,,

 

[grassott]

Its not impossible to see, we are just missing the emotional component. What I am seeing is not shaded by bias.

You keep thinking everyone is missing something only you can see... then you back off and say its experiment, then it goes back to being an unimpeachable tech ique... it seems to me things that happen anyway are being attributed to defoli

Can you see that the plant's structure is improving with less leaf and more budsites?

And I'm not quite sure about your emotional concept speech, but there again, I've never been an emotional person. Emotion aint got nothing to do with experiment as far as I'm concerned lol

 

[grassott]

but you wont be able to answer anyone though or prove anything because you havent done a side by side,,,

id just remove the pointless lower budsites rather than the important early fan leaves,,

Oh not the side by side thing again? I'm comparing this run with the next run.

I got some non-defolied plants that are gonna get chopped next month. Then I'm gonna chop down the defolied harvested crop in xmas when the results will be in for both crops. Same plant count (6 hempy buckets) on each run. This is way much better than a side by side I reckon.

 

[mad librettist]

id just remove the pointless lower budsites rather than the important early fan leaves,,

very valuable advice here to those willing to listen.

 

[mad librettist]

Can you see that the plant's structure is improving with less leaf and more budsites?

And I'm not quite sure about your emotional concept speech, but there again, I've never been an emotional person. Emotion aint got nothing to do with experiment as far as I'm concerned lol

I am saying your investment in this technique must be clouding your vision, because I see nothing to indicate improvements in structure. Especially considering what you are capable of. You could have simply crushed or bent your apical tip, not wasted a week, and sit back while a better canopy is achieved. Then remove the pointless lower bud sites that are never going to amount to anything but a slowdown for the productive parts of the plant (as in, the growth closest to the most intense light).

You keep wanting to compare your almost-massacred plants to after they recover from abuse, when what matters is how much your plant accomplished in 6 days - almost nothing!

Reminds of the line from catch-22: "we lose money on every sale, but we make up for it in volume".

 

[Rednick]

I guess it is easier for people to be against something then have a balanced view of it.

Seriously depends.
Old animals die, young thrive.
But if the sun burns out, it becomes a judgement call.

"Which creature in the morning goes on four legs, at mid-day on two, and in the evening upon three, and the more legs it has, the weaker it be?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx#The_Riddle_of_the_Sphinx

 

[VerdantGreen]

Can you see that the plant's structure is improving with less leaf and more budsites?

i can understand that it stunts the plant - so i guess that you get more budsites on a smaller plant. personally i have never been short of budsites on a plant and find that if you have more budsites you tend to get more but smaller buds. i grow plants in very controlled conditions scrogged to a square foot screen, and as long as you dont have any big gaps, the buds always tend to expand to fill the space whether there are 12 or 30 of them - with about the same yield.
similar to apples - you tend to get the same weight of fruit regardless of the number of apples (within reason) if you dont thin the fruit you get more apples but they finish smaller.

 

[VerdantGreen]

as for removing budsites rather than fanleaves, i agree its better to leave the lower fans as their energy/nutrients will get recycles by the plant. i remove the budsites under the screen but leave the fans

 

[mad librettist]

I got some non-defolied plants that are gonna get chopped next month. Then I'm gonna chop down the defolied harvested crop in xmas when the results will be in for both crops. Same plant count (6 hempy buckets) on each run. This is way much better than a side by side I reckon.

only remotely valid if both sets of plants get the same amount of time to grow. otherwise you are back to convincing me taking longer to grow is actually an advantage.

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

I am saying your investment in this technique must be clouding your vision, because I see nothing to indicate improvements in structure. Especially considering what you are capable of.

there is a substantial improvement in structure, and im not talking from the point of view of theory, im talking from my "actual " point of view:

1) the lower plants (future budsites/ cuttings) become much much stronger than without the defoliation.

2)the plant its self becomes much larger, theres more than substantial side branching growth. what would have been side branches reaching for light dont really have to fight that much thereby improving there efficiency in overall energy production

3) the fact that the other bud sites or even branches become elongated and those smaller budsites on the lower parts of the side branches become viable bud material, to the point where they actually make up for the "popcorn" bud that you would have lost at the lower part of the plant.

4) it allows you to have a less congested canopy with an abundance of plants allowing you to maximize your grow area, and coupled with bending. . . dude 'nough said!

now in grassott's plant pic the example is one of the best there is!! you may be looking at the plant now, but what you have to look at as a grower is what that plant will eventually become.

its almost the same premise as a scrog grow, you dont care about the fan leave on the main stem, you just need those side branches to get past the mesh so that they can take off.

but like i say to everyone and in al of my posts, dont believe me, do the test grow yourself and run them side by side. once you get two plants have one you just leave alone and the other you take the fan leave off accordingly and you will see the difference yourself.

ive done this numerous times and have seen the benefits each and everytime!

 

[mad librettist]

this is where defoli can take you lol


[YOUTUBEIF]TPufcG3q9ek&feature=related[/YOUTUBEIF]

 

[grassott]

only remotely valid if both sets of plants get the same amount of time to grow. otherwise you are back to convincing me taking longer to grow is actually an advantage.

Fair point. Not remotely valid but very valid. The leafy crop (flowering now) will have the same time as the defolied crop. From the day they was cut from the mom - 1st day of 12/12 will be 9-10 weeks in both. Same time as flowering basically (12/12. I always start from the day I flip when mentioning flower times).

And thanks for the kind words you said about my leafy crop. I've seen defoli'd crops grown under the same 400w lights with MUCH better results than my current crop. The guy told me to research and experiment so I did. Well, am trying to now anyways. Would be easier to get the best out of this experiment if I never had to answer remarks and questions every two minutes, all day long, but I understand why these remarks are being made well before the experiment's completed. They call it human nature lol.

 

[mad librettist]

there is a substantial improvement in structure, and im not talking from the point of view of theory, im talking from my "actual " point of view:

1) the lower plants (future budsites/ cuttings) become much much stronger than without the defoliation.

2)the plant its self becomes much larger, theres more than substantial side branching growth. what would have been side branches reaching for light dont really have to fight that much thereby improving there efficiency in overall energy production

3) the fact that the other bud sites or even branches become elongated and those smaller budsites on the lower parts of the side branches become viable bud material, to the point where they actually make up for the "popcorn" bud that you would have lost at the lower part of the plant.

4) it allows you to have a less congested canopy with an abundance of plants allowing you to maximize your grow area, and coupled with bending. . . dude 'nough said!

now in grassott's plant pic the example is one of the best there is!! you may be looking at the plant now, but what you have to look at as a grower is what that plant will eventually become.

its almost the same premise as a scrog grow, you dont care about the fan leave on the main stem, you just need those side branches to get past the mesh so that they can take off.

but like i say to everyone and in al of my posts, dont believe me, do the test grow yourself and run them side by side. once you get two plants have one you just leave alone and the other you take the fan leave off accordingly and you will see the difference yourself.

ive done this numerous times and have seen the benefits each and everytime!

are you using the same kind of eyes? taking me for a newb perhaps? I know a thing or two about structure, and where a plant is going. I am a scrogger. A scrogger who can't read a plant does not succeed. You can SAY you see improved structure, but I don't see it, and I am not so open to suggestion.

do you realize that most of the advantages you just posted are symptoms of PLANT GROWTH? This is the part that confuses me about the defoliation fad. You get pics of below average progress, and they keep wanting to compare the gross, when what matters is the NET.

What the lower branches do has everything to do with apical dominance, nothing to do with herbivory (unless herbivory winds up affecting apical dominance via pruning).

Culling budsites (as described by master scrogger verdant green a few posts back) and keeping the right ones will make every difference in the world. When you pick the right budsites to keep, the rest sort of just falls into place, fan leaves and all.

Have you never had the experience of a pheno that fills in between the nodes? You'll be looking at your canopy and one day you pull it aside for some reason, and right there, in the "shade" of fan leaves, is massive, dense bud. It's ALMOST as if light gets through to the parts of the plant closest to the light, regardless of how thick the canopy. It's ALMOST as if the lower budsites are actually a waste of time.



one more thing - according to your research, what is the effect of herbivory above ground on the root mass below ground? (ok, the answer is that defoliation causes roots to die back).

 

[VerdantGreen]

i wish you well with your experiments grassot, although i would caution that two runs done at different times is not the best comparison due to differences in temps, humidity etc etc.

if you find answering remarks and questions tiresome then perhaps it would be better to post your defol progress pics in a few less threads
or even wait for the final results and then present them all in one go!

stay safe, it's football for me too so we probably live in the same country

VG

 

[grassott]

i can understand that it stunts the plant - so i guess that you get more budsites on a smaller plant...

It don't stunt the plant as such. It slows down vertical growth rate. What you end up with is a stouter, bushier plant with a shit load of budsites. The node spacing on the branches is absolutely stunning to see too. But this is just on what I've seen so far during this experiment.

 

[grassott]

i wish you well with your experiments grassot, although i would caution that two runs done at different times is not the best comparison due to differences in temps, humidity etc etc.

if you find answering remarks and questions tiresome then perhaps it would be better to post your defol progress pics in a few less threads
or even wait for the final results and then present them all in one go!

stay safe, it's football for me too so we probably live in the same country

VG

Yeah good idea. Its just when I see a defoli thread I wanna show off my experiment to those who are interested. But on occasion I come across people who just wanna argue. Gives me a bit of a headache after a while. Know what I mean?

I'm very suprised at the speed rate of a defolied garden just 6 days after defoli and I wanted to share. then I got bombarded by remarks lol.

Can't say which team I support here. It might give away my identity and whereabouts a bit lol.

 

[mad librettist]

It don't stunt the plant as such. It slows down vertical growth rate. .

any time you stress a plant, you slow down growth. That's because you need to rebuild, above AND below ground. A plant that is getting attacked repeatedly by herbivores is better off staying small and blending in rather than wasting gas trying to get tall. That's why LST and FIM where invented


if you want cryptoform growth, try mixing LED lighting into your system. I am getting good results now with a mixed HPS/LED cycle. And since you keep the growth you get to build the next growth, your shit grows fast and compact.

As VG pointed out, the more budsites you have, the smaller your buds. I do this on purpose if I am harvesting in the summer, but a winter harvest with low RH means I am after big heady buds. The buds you are trying to coax upwards get culled in my garden. My process of elimination is based on a budsite's potential, which is related to how well it can get resources. Try strangling a stem with a twist-tie to reduce the traffic - you will stunt the bud. You want the buds with the most potential for receiving resources to be up top.

 

[grassott]

...now in grassott's plant pic the example is one of the best there is!!...

That means a lot to me mate, especially coming from someone who's done this many times before.

Cheers fella

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

are you using the same kind of eyes? taking me for a newb perhaps? I know a thing or two about structure, and where a plant is going. I am a scrogger. A scrogger who can't read a plant does not succeed. You can SAY you see improved structure, but I don't see it, and I am not so open to suggestion.

do you realize that most of the advantages you just posted are symptoms of PLANT GROWTH? This is the part that confuses me about the defoliation fad. You get pics of below average progress, and they keep wanting to compare the gross, when what matters is the NET.

What the lower branches do has everything to do with apical dominance, nothing to do with herbivory (unless herbivory winds up affecting apical dominance via pruning).

Culling budsites (as described by master scrogger verdant green a few posts back) and keeping the right ones will make every difference in the world. When you pick the right budsites to keep, the rest sort of just falls into place, fan leaves and all.

Have you never had the experience of a pheno that fills in between the nodes? You'll be looking at your canopy and one day you pull it aside for some reason, and right there, in the "shade" of fan leaves, is massive, dense bud. It's ALMOST as if light gets through to the parts of the plant closest to the light, regardless of how thick the canopy. It's ALMOST as if the lower bud sites are actually a waste of time.



one more thing - according to your research, what is the effect of herbivory above ground on the root mass below ground? (ok, the answer is that defoliation causes roots to die back).

i hear you and i just cant sit here and see the point that something is pointless to do when ive seen the growth/results for myself.

and once again i say, you dont have to speculate on it or even argue/discuss it down or try to figure it out or rationalize it, just take one of your plants just one and do it for yourself so you can compare it to the other plants that you have.

right now im in the process of getting things started sort of building up to getting my flower cab filled on a regular basis. once i have the amount of plants i want , bruh, i'll do a side by side myself for you if need be and take pics on a weekly basis.

we can talk about it all day and night, but if your not willing to do the research yourself then what is there for you to gain?

you keep "talking" about the why's of it looking for understanding but for this technique the understanding doesnt come that way. its an action thing, do it for yourself and you will see.

you want someone on here to "tell" you why but there is nothing to tell. everything youve been told have been from perspectives of experience.

i can "tell" you that fire is hot and it burns till im blue in the face but if you dont understand what burning means or what hot is then youve GOT to put your hand in the flame yourself to gain the experience for yourself?

you tell me one thing, the plants tell me another, at this point i have to digress.

 

[noreason]

I'm pretty sure defofoliating a plant is a waste of energy for the system ''plant''.
The carbon-based molecules, created synthesizing them starting from light energy and elements, and then used to create tissues and other things, are been removed artificially.This, in the logic that no energy comes from nothing,tell me that I'm destroying a part of that converted energy.

I'm pretty sure too, that this kind of stress lead to a metabolism modification in a plant.Hormones are a very important key, and I don't exclude that an alteration could lead at inusual expectations, as a massive flowering could be.

We don't really know what a plant does when defoiled, but we can observe it.From what can I see, from grassot's pics, a defolied plant needs more days to vegetate as it needs to recover lost leaves,and this makes sense to me.

6 days and it seems to be not so bigger than it was,but if this make a good flowering, it could worth the veg time in some conditions.

However,as already said, in that recovering week, the plant probably is more prone to be attacked from pests and she also has several wounds opened and if some fungus is in the room, the infection could be a real thing to worry about.

similar to apples - you tend to get the same weight of fruit regardless of the number of apples (within reason) if you dont thin the fruit you get more apples but they finish smaller.

It make sense VD.
Plant has a X quantity of energy comes from the sun and a X quantity of nutrient elements come from the soil.

Combining this two,it can synthesize an X quantity molecules to build the apples.

Example:

The tree has 100 ''coins'' to build apple. every small size apple costs 5 ''coins'', the bigger costs 10.So depending on how the flowering and pollinating went, the tree can build 20 small apples or 10 big apples.Finally the weight will be similar.