Who uses Phosphites?

[krunchbubble]

I hope my efforts help folks to understand why Pure Flower is Pure Bullshit. People are much better off using a PK booster that has phosphates...or better yet, only boost K during per-flowering because boosting P is a waste and goes against goals of most growers (i.e. short, stalky plants).

ive got pics, yields and bud size that shows differently.........

 

[spurr]

I don't buy snake oil. I also value my experience of 2 decades using phosphites over your writing. It costs $5000/acre to grow table grapes. I don't waste a penny on snake oil...... or bad advice.

So there we are.

You surprise me, you have taken my advise before, see what I wrote to you in my other thread on phosphites. It's a fact you are wrong, phosphites do not directly provide P to plants, you can't refute this.

If you see plants with sufficient P from phosphites it's due to microbes (bacteria) breaking it down, which takes awhile. You have tested it outdoors, in soil, no? ...so there we are

Also, above you mention AM fungi, well, sorry to say, but phosphites are systemic fungicides that do not get converted into P once inside the plant (ex. as folair spray). This is why phosphites will inhibit (i.e. prevent) AM fungi infection of host roots. If host roots are pre-infected with Am fungi, and then phosphites are sprayed onto plants, the AM fungi will loose infection and not be able to help the plant. Phosphites prevent AM fungi (and other endomycorrhzial fungi) from helping your grapes, again, you can't refute this and be correct in doing so.

Please, re-read what I wrote with an open mind, because you my friend, are wrong that phosphites are a good replacement for phosphates. There is a mountain of studies and data and proof showing why phosphites do not provide P for plants directly.

Also, please see the pic in my above post. If a cannabis grower, ex. a hydro grower, only used phosphites for P, their plants would be P deficient in no time and suffer badly.

 

[spurr]

ive got pics, yields and bud size that shows differently.........

Then either you are not using only phosphites for P, or you are growing with lots of microbes that are breaking down the phosphites into forms that the plant can use as P. There is no other explanation because phosphites do not provide P nutrition to plants directly. This is not debatable, it's facts of chemistry and botany.

 

[spurr]

@ all,

Please, don't just take a manufacturer word on this topic. Has anyone who is refuting what I wrote actually read any of the studies and papers I posted? Or the paper DonkDBZ posted in this thread (e.g. from my post with the pic in it)?

I do not understand why people have to fight me tooth-and-nail when I try to show inaccuracies in claims, and try to debunk BS in the cannabis world...just because what I often write is new info, and goes against what is thought to be correct info, should not mean what I write is dismissed off hand. I am correct in my claims about phosphites, in that they are a very poor source of P, but a very good systemic fungicide.

 

[spurr]

EDIT:

Above I made a few typos, spelling "phosphites" as "phosphetes", sorry about that.

 

[real ting]

I hope my efforts help folks to understand why Pure Flower is Pure Bullshit. People are much better off using a PK booster that has phosphates...or better yet, only boost K during per-flowering because boosting P is a waste and goes against goals of most growers (i.e. short, stalky plants).

I am not disputing the facts you have presented, but I do have to question the last part about pure flowers being pure bullshit. I've never used the product, but I didn't quite follow your logic there.

You have said that you never need over 50 ppm of P,which I'd guess most base nutrients provide. I'm assuming most people are not using bloom boosters stand alone without base nutrients. So if the K boost is desired, and pure flowers provides that, while also being a strong systemic fungicide, would that not be a good product?

It sounds like you are saying PK boosters are not needed for most growers anyways, but that a K booster would be good, and that pure flowers is primarily a K booster.


You also mentioned that you don't want a P boost in preflowering. Is a P boost beneficial later in flowering? If so at what stage? Or were you trying to say that you don't want a P boost at all, ever, and that you only need a K boost in preflowering, and not after that?

What would the target ppm of P and K be during flowering? Does it change throughout?

 

[spurr]

hope my efforts help folks to understand why Pure Flower is Pure Bullshit. People are much better off using a PK booster that has phosphates...or better yet, only boost K during per-flowering because boosting P is a waste and goes against goals of most growers (i.e. short, stalky plants).

I am not disputing the facts you have presented, but I do have to question the last part about pure flowers being pure bullshit. I've never used the product, but I didn't quite follow your logic there.

You have said that you never need over 50 ppm of P,which I'd guess most base nutrients provide. I'm assuming most people are not using bloom boosters stand alone without base nutrients. So if the K boost is desired, and pure flowers provides that, while also being a strong systemic fungicide, would that not be a good product?

Great point and question!! That is why understanding what phosphites will, and will not do, is key. If someone wants to use it as a K source and as a fungicide, ex. to stop PM, then they are going to be very happy. Phosphites have shown to be effective against PM.

When I wrote "Pure Flowers is Pure Bullshit" I was referring to using it as a P source, and the lies, or ignorance, of Organa (makers of pure flowers).

It sounds like you are saying PK boosters are not needed for most growers anyways, but that a K booster would be good, and that pure flowers is primarily a K booster.

Yup.

You also mentioned that you don't want a P boost in preflowering. Is a P boost beneficial later in flowering? If so at what stage? Or were you trying to say that you don't want a P boost at all, ever, and that you only need a K boost in preflowering, and not after that?

You got it, I never boost P, there is not reason to if P is ~50 ppm. Only boosting K and Ca in pre-flowering is what I suggest. Cannabis growers greatly over-apply P...

What would the target ppm of P and K be during flowering? Does it change throughout?

For flowering, P = ~ 40-75 ppm and K = 125-150 ppm. But that is also the goal for veg and pre-flowing too.

Plants self-regulate uptake of N (nitrates), P, K, Ca, etc. Thus we should strive to give them sufficient levels, i.e. the same we use in veg, and let the plant take what it 'wants'. I never change ferts for veg and flowering; doing so is based upon flawed logic proposed by Mel Frank, Jorge Cervantes, et al., and it's just as wrong now as when they made their incorrect assumptions and hearsay, and called it fact.

Check out this thread of mine for lots more info about how plants self-regulate uptake of most ions:

"Plants self-regulate uptake of ions; they control it, not us, unless we overdo ferts"
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=190653
​

 

[opt1c]

but by using pure flowers one is only applying k as the p is not available, according to you, in pure flowers; probably enough p in the base nutes; especially if you're using flower specific ones to avoid a def while giving the plants all the k they need; maybe that's why it works... and it's antifungal too boot? nice

 

[spurr]

Yes, that is why it works, from the K, not the P. And yup, it's also a fungicide, so conventional growers (i.e. non-biological organic growers) have a dual product in Pure Flowers (or any potassium phosphite product)...just not a source of P. The efficacy of phosphites against PM is nothing to shake a stick at.

 

[opt1c]

i had a strain that overdosed on p once, soma rockbud, using h&g base with top booster; that being said are there any products that are out there that are more k boosters than p boosters other than pure flowers?

 

[spurr]

I would suggest using straight Potassium Sulfate as a DIY bloom booster of K (it also has S so that should be accounted for as to not over apply S):
http://www.hydro-gardens.com/fertcomp.htm

Either that, of use ProTekt, which is Potassium Siliate, this is good for two reasons: the K and the Si. Silicate should be considered similar to a secondary nutrient, on par with S. When ash tests of plants were first conducted near 100 years ago they didn't test for Si, however, Si offers many benefits to plants. Around ~50-75 ppm Si is a good goal.

 

[DonkDBZ]

Pure flowers does not claim to be a P booster. Read the bottle.

It says liquid phosphite to assist in flowering and fruiting.

It even states the same thing the study I posted showed on the bottle



Its just another nice flower booster with the side benefit of killing powdery mildew. I used foliar right before lights out and next day the girls look so perky.

 

[TheBioMaster]

Pure Flowers is some good stuff thats for sure!

Speaking of boosters and flower additives, how do you guys store nutrients that you dont use alot of like Pure Flowers....a gallon of that to a small grower would last for YEARS it would seem! Can you store this stuff in this fridge maybe? No humidity in the fridge right? What about powdered products like KoolBloom? Can that be stored in the fridge? Would it be worth it to have a small fridge like you find in a hotel room in your nutrient storage closet?

Thanks for all the good info!

Peace!

 

[grapeman]

You surprise me, you have taken my advise before, see what I wrote to you in my other thread on phosphites. It's a fact you are wrong, phosphites do not directly provide P to plants, you can't refute this.

If you see plants with sufficient P from phosphites it's due to microbes (bacteria) breaking it down, which takes awhile. You have tested it outdoors, in soil, no? ...so there we are

Also, above you mention AM fungi, well, sorry to say, but phosphites are systemic fungicides that do not get converted into P once inside the plant (ex. as folair spray). This is why phosphites will inhibit (i.e. prevent) AM fungi infection of host roots. If host roots are pre-infected with Am fungi, and then phosphites are sprayed onto plants, the AM fungi will loose infection and not be able to help the plant. Phosphites prevent AM fungi (and other endomycorrhzial fungi) from helping your grapes, again, you can't refute this and be correct in doing so.

Please, re-read what I wrote with an open mind, because you my friend, are wrong that phosphites are a good replacement for phosphates. There is a mountain of studies and data and proof showing why phosphites do not provide P for plants directly.

Also, please see the pic in my above post. If a cannabis grower, ex. a hydro grower, only used phosphites for P, their plants would be P deficient in no time and suffer badly.

I use phosphates for P. But I can tell you that by adding phosphites to my foliar regimen, I have cut my phos acid use (thru drip irrigation) by about 70% with better results. I don't think anyone here is suggesting the use of phosphites as a P source, but there is not doubt in my mind (and a large percentage of the farming industry) the use of Phosphites definitely enhances P within the plant. Any thing we can do to reduce the use of phos acid soil applications is a good thing. The side benefit of being a mild fungicide has been well known for many years.

 

[P. Dondrub]

I used pure flowers several times. As per the advertisement for it stated, I assumed it was a better source of P, I tried using it as a primary source of P one run.

Phosphorous deficiency developed rapidly and severely. Snake oil is right.... I can't believe the way the ads read... I've posted in the past about this product being a big scam.


Systemic fungicide is not what I was looking for. The ad said this is a superior bloom booster, that's what I bought it for, and yet its not even a bloom booster.

 

[P. Dondrub]

I use phosphates for P. But I can tell you that by adding phosphites to my foliar regimen, I have cut my phos acid use (thru drip irrigation) by about 70% with better results. I don't think anyone here is suggesting the use of phosphites as a P source, but there is not doubt in my mind (and a large percentage of the farming industry) the use of Phosphites definitely enhances P within the plant. Any thing we can do to reduce the use of phos acid soil applications is a good thing. The side benefit of being a mild fungicide has been well known for many years.

Personally, I think everyone but you here is suggesting phosphites as a P source....

 

[cyat]

used it , gave it away. Did nothing good for me. Didnt work on my buddies powdery mildew eithier. Similar to agri-phos , waste of time too.

 

[TickleMyBalls]

Then either you are not using only phosphites for P, or you are growing with lots of microbes that are breaking down the phosphites into forms that the plant can use as P. There is no other explanation because phosphites do not provide P nutrition to plants directly. This is not debatable, it's facts of chemistry and botany.

hey idiot... NOBODY only uses phosphites. that is why pure flowers is an ADDITIVE. it states on the bottle to add it to your normal bloom regimen. and most of us cannabis growers use systemic, not foliar, which DOES allow for root access to high levels of P.

If phosphites don't work, there's about 1000 industrial farmers out there you should go waste your time on preaching too, cause industrial fertilizer companies are mostly the ones producing phosphite based nutrients, the canna industry is behind.

get out of my thread with your non-phosphite using ass, because I've increased my yields and plant health and about 5 of my friend's yields by only adding pure flowers.

 

[TickleMyBalls]

I used pure flowers several times. As per the advertisement for it stated, I assumed it was a better source of P, I tried using it as a primary source of P one run.

Phosphorous deficiency developed rapidly and severely. Snake oil is right.... I can't believe the way the ads read... I've posted in the past about this product being a big scam.


Systemic fungicide is not what I was looking for. The ad said this is a superior bloom booster, that's what I bought it for, and yet its not even a bloom booster.

ever think maybe you used too much of it? it is so super concentrated that it is very easy to over feed your plants and cause a nutrient lock out. my theory is that you caused a nute lockout, cause when I use pure flowers my nugs fatten up. I first started using it when growing Katsu Bubba Kush, which is known to need a lot of P. if it doesn't get it, it purples up and stunts the nug growth. the first time I ever used Pure Flowers, was the first time I had a completely green bubba kush, and it also was my biggest yielding bubba ever.

 

[spurr]

Pure flowers does not claim to be a P booster. Read the bottle.

It says liquid phosphite to assist in flowering and fruiting.

It even states the same thing the study I posted showed on the bottle



Its just another nice flower booster with the side benefit of killing powdery mildew. I used foliar right before lights out and next day the girls look so perky.

Pure Flowers is marketed as a P booster, as well as a K booster and a plant 'protector'...