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Who bred Original White Widow?
- Thread starter emeraldfarmer
- Start date
- Status
Raco is correct. La Niña is not Haze x Black Widow. It is Mullum Madness x Black Widow. I too would like to know why a breeder who prides himself on listing accurate plant lineages would purposely misinform his potential customer base. This question could also be extended to his latest Ortega release. When did Ortega become Northern Lights? According to Nevil, Ortega and NL are two separate, unrelated lines. Shanti has yet to explain any of this.
M.
I too would like to know why...best white widow I ever smoked was in the dam at dekabouter coffeeshop...don't know where is came from or who the hell grew it but thats the only thing they had on the menu and moroccan hash...
shantibaba
Active member
Hi All
Well nice to see the discussion going on, but since all strain descriptions are free to view on the mns site I do find it amusing you all still dissatisfied or not clear, but i will endeavor to clear up some of these things.
Mullum madness the version we were growing in the late 70s ans early 80s in that area was known as the Aussie Haze. If you were there and smoked it you would agree as it was very close to NH in my opinion and therefore I classified it similar to all of those who were after Haze type flavors. Maybe it was a little unclear to those of you who believe all the Haze bro stories and there various versions depending upon who you talk to....but I am only going on the flavors and breeding traits when I name my strains.
Now as for Ortega it was a selection of a NL1 hybrid...making it indica(afghan). If Nevil says something different then remember I made the selection from seed not Nevil. I made it from old seed of Nev`s and since he has not been active the last period of time i wrote it down according to the names written on the old seed packets in his writing.The original one was also an afghan hybrid so again just a difference in breeders versions of the select plant. The same goes for NL version I use at MNS...so hope that makes things a little clearer for you that are confused.
I suggest the best thing to do in the future for clarity is ask directly to the company selling the version you are interested in and asking the breeder of that seed, as names from many companies do not represent the old world things in genetics.
Nothing was done on my side to be anything but clear so ask me in future if you wish to get it correct as far as MNS strains go.
All the best sb
Well nice to see the discussion going on, but since all strain descriptions are free to view on the mns site I do find it amusing you all still dissatisfied or not clear, but i will endeavor to clear up some of these things.
Mullum madness the version we were growing in the late 70s ans early 80s in that area was known as the Aussie Haze. If you were there and smoked it you would agree as it was very close to NH in my opinion and therefore I classified it similar to all of those who were after Haze type flavors. Maybe it was a little unclear to those of you who believe all the Haze bro stories and there various versions depending upon who you talk to....but I am only going on the flavors and breeding traits when I name my strains.
Now as for Ortega it was a selection of a NL1 hybrid...making it indica(afghan). If Nevil says something different then remember I made the selection from seed not Nevil. I made it from old seed of Nev`s and since he has not been active the last period of time i wrote it down according to the names written on the old seed packets in his writing.The original one was also an afghan hybrid so again just a difference in breeders versions of the select plant. The same goes for NL version I use at MNS...so hope that makes things a little clearer for you that are confused.
I suggest the best thing to do in the future for clarity is ask directly to the company selling the version you are interested in and asking the breeder of that seed, as names from many companies do not represent the old world things in genetics.
Nothing was done on my side to be anything but clear so ask me in future if you wish to get it correct as far as MNS strains go.
All the best sb
Childs Play
Childs Play
Oh come on now, nipping a shantis heels? why? because tom and nevil didnt get along? i think both tom and nevil can handle themselves, dont ya think?
Whom then lived in india and collected parental stock for the cross?
Whom then went to brazil and collected parental stock for the cross?
Whom lived in Aus and actually grew it? You?
Have you smoked, grown or even reveiwed pics on this very site of Mullum?
Inquiring minds want to know?
Childs Play
And..how old were you in the late 70´s? 12? 13?
Oh come on now, nipping a shantis heels? why? because tom and nevil didnt get along? i think both tom and nevil can handle themselves, dont ya think?
Whom then lived in india and collected parental stock for the cross?
Whom then went to brazil and collected parental stock for the cross?
Whom lived in Aus and actually grew it? You?
Have you smoked, grown or even reveiwed pics on this very site of Mullum?
Inquiring minds want to know?
M
MummyCat
So if something breeds and tastes like what you think a haze should taste and breed like you'll call it a "haze?"
hmm, interesting
that´s bs ^^
wtf??
I´m not Tom ...I´m not his mother LOL
If they don´t get along I couldn´t care less FYI
that´s bs ^^
wtf??
I´m not Tom ...I´m not his mother LOL
If they don´t get along I couldn´t care less FYI
They were ?'s to the only reason i could think of you would be dissin' shanti like that. If you say it aint so, then i guess it isnt. Fair enough?
I like all 3 of the guys to tell ya the truth, and all the growers including you Raco. Its disheartening to see everyone in a big put-down competition, when its ALL good.
Stdane
Active member
A little BIG.....
A little BIG.....
From MNS-forums on the White/Black Widow;
Latrodectus mactans, also known as the southern Black Widow spider was the primary taxonomy used to describe the three species of spiders commonly referred to as the Black Widow spider prior to the early 1970’s. Unknown to most, there exists three species of the North American Black Widow spider. Along with Latrodectus mactans, the Latrodectus variolus (northern Black Widow) and Latrodectus hesperus (western Black Widow) are considered species of the North American Black Widow spider, not to be confused of course, with the false Black Widow spider. Such is the case with the infamous White Widow variety of cannabis, a strain of marijuana whose pedigree ultimately consists of a union between a South Indian hybrid and Brazilian Sativa. Her introduction to the masses in 1994 marked the end of an era in Dutch breeding circles and the beginning of a dynasty. Now known as Black Widow, the original White Widow would forever change the face of Dutch breeding and would go on too cement itself firmly as being among the most important strains of cannabis developed in the 20th century.
White Widow was originally bred by Shantibaba, the original founder, owner and head breeder of The Green House Seed Company (GHSC). The variety known as White Widow immediately catapulted itself into rock star status upon introduction to the public in 1994. Within a year of its initial release, White Widow took first place at the High Times Cannabis Cup in 1995 and a wave of copy cat White Widow varieties hit the market soon after. In 1996, both Nirvana and Dutch Passion seed companies purchased a single pack of White Widow seeds respectively from Shantibaba himself at the GHSC and within a year released their own versions of Widow. It wasn’t long before one would be hard pressed to find varieties of cannabis seed available from Holland that weren’t hybrids of the original White Widow released in 1994, literally breathing life into the Dutch cannabis breeding scene that had lagged in the time prior to White Widows release. For many years in Holland varieties such as Northern Lights, Skunk, Afghani and Haze were staples of the Dutch breeding community and with the introduction of White Widow came a renewed vigor in breeding top of the line, commercial and medicinal quality strains of cannabis. With success my friends, breeds greed and contempt for ones fellow man. A wave of White Widow varieties were available to the public by the late 1990’s, all of which were either hybrids a selected White Widow variety from a commercially available pack of F1 White Widow seeds from the GHSC, backcrosses from the original Widow or in some cases out right fraudulent lines to begin with. Having no true relation to the original Widow through hybridization or backcrossing. Imposters! To add to the growing complicated Widow landscape of the time, unscrupulous characters such as Ingemar, a former employee of the GHSC and self described breeder emerged claiming to be the true breeder of White Widow, offering their own version of the now legendary strain of cannabis. As if the whirlwind of disinformation wasn’t enough, along with Ingemar, yet another man who calls himself “Ecotronics” has laid claim to being the true breeder of White Widow and has been insistent everybody else is making money off of his line. While nothing is ever as black and white as it would seem from the outside looking in, it’s this kind of success and ultimately, confusion, that leads to the eventual name change of the original White Widow to the now proverbial Black Widow.
For those of you who may be in possession of genetics related to the Ingemar White Widow, but whom may be finding this article disappointing, I have you covered in that department as well. At one point in time, the man known as Ingemar worked for the GHSC, but if you were to believe Ingemar’s own account of the pedigree of his White Widow lines, one is left with the impression we are talking about distinctly different lines of White Widow from that of the Mr. Nice Seeds White Widow aka Black Widow. According to Ingemar, who now proudly assumes the title of “The Father of White Widow”, the pedigree of his line of White Widow is a secret, but that it was ultimately created from two seeds found in hand rolled hash which were subsequently selectively inbred for at least six years. Ingemar claims to have had access at the time to acres of land that he used to select the best plants from literally thousands of specimens. Again, the exact criteria Ingemar used to select his plants are kept a secret but he has been quoted as stating feed back from numerous medical users over the years played a role in the selection process of his particular White Widow line. According to Ingemar, the GHSC now uses his White Widow lines with express permission given solely to Arjan to use the name White Widow. In an ironic twist of fate, the GHSC now takes complete credit for the breeding and success of White Widow, without mention of either Ingemar or the true breeder of White Widow, Shantibaba, who of course is the only person in existence today with access to the original mother and father lines that created this now mythical variety of cannabis.
As was mentioned earlier, the pedigree of the Mr. Nice seeds Black Widow is the result of a union between a south Indian hybrid indica and a Brazilian sativa. The south Indian hybrid was found at Kovalum Beach, but it was ultimately cultivated in the surrounding mountainous terrain of Kerala. Shantibaba has stated in the past that the special qualities of the south Indian hybrid were enough for him to schedule a “safari” into the mountains of Kerala to find it on his Enfield bike. Within a few days, Shantibaba found himself “sitting in a café drinking a chai and smoking a joint”, when a middle aged, glassy eyed fellow approached him and helped finish off his smoke. After getting severely stoned and drinking the last of their tea, Shantibaba accompanied the man back to his farm only to discover this was the grower of the strain that had lead him into the mountains to begin with. After several days of testing numerous samples of marijuana, all of which had been cultivated, selected and “bred” for years based on resin production, selection was ultimately made on what would later become known as one half of the legendary pedigree of Black Widow. The man who helped Shantibaba finish his joint and ultimately supplied the seed that would later become known as the South Indian hybrid, told him that the seed had always been in his village, but that variation existed among the line depending on which village you visited to gather your wares. The plants are said to finish rather fast, but aesthetic wise have a sativa-esk appearance to them. Along with the Black Widow, several hybrids of this deadly lady have went on to garner much acclaim in their own right, most notably the White Rhino (now known as Medicine Man) and Great White Shark (also known as Peacemaker and Shark Shock), both of which have won a multitude of awards and cups in their own right, with the Medicine Mans pedigree consisting of Black Widow x Afghani and the Shark Shocks pedigree being Black Widow x Skunk#1. These are the original, “true blue” champion lines that garnered the reputations which precede themselves. Both lines find their ultimate pedigree traced back to the original White Widow bred by Shantibaba at the GHSC, now of Mr. Nice seeds (MNS), fronted by the legendary hash smuggler Howard Marks alongside the original “King of Cannabis”, Neville Schoenmaker.
It should be noted there are several Widow Hybrids available to the public from MNS, but all varieties containing the name Widow in the description come from either a select male or female cultivar, both from the same generation whom have underwent extensive testing. Hybrids such as Medicine Man, La Nina, G13xSkunk and Shark Shock are all varieties offered by MNS that encompass the Black Widow father as the main building block for their pedigrees. The exact formula of this male is somewhat of a mystery for all but the select few, however extensive breeding was done on the original White Widow (Black Widow) line and the male contains both the South Indian hybrid sativa/indica and the Brazilian Sativa. In very general terms, within a pack of seed of Black Widow one should expect the females to yield somewhere in the neighborhood of 350-400 grams per square meter. Of course it is phenotype dependant, but an experienced grower could probably do better with some time spent working with the line. Outdoors, the plants can be expected to finish by mid-October. Between the major three, Black Widow, Medicine Man and Shark Shock, the Medicine Man is touted as the fastest variety, coming in between mid September and October with the Shark Shock expected right around the beginning of October, give or a take a few days of course. Of all the hybrids however, Shantibaba describes the Shark Shock as the most successful breed of the ‘90s. One can not go wrong with any of the Widow selections; however the Black Widow is obviously perfect for the amateur breeder. If one was to find themselves in Amsterdam with some time to spare to try each line for them selves, according to Shantibaba the Katsu coffee shop on the Sarphatti Park, along with a gentleman known as Mr. Haze (supplier of official MNS gear to many Dutch coffee shops) and quite a few others stock the MNS Black Widow.
When it’s all said and done, at the end of the day, those at Mr. Nice Seeds hold the original parental lines that produced the White strains that won all of the acclaim in the mid to late 1990’s. The awards and cups are documented, and exist as irrefutable proof of the true origins of the White Widow line. These varieties of White lines are not nearly uncommon, but are of a quality rarely seen on a consistent basis that have managed to capture the hearts and minds of millions of cannabis enthusiasts the world over. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to be led in the wrong direction when it comes to the quest for the true White Widow. Now the picture should be painted much clearer for you. Though, the search has only just begun. Selection is the key to success with any variety, but with some diligence you too can have a mother plant that produces herb almost too toxic to indulge in on a consistent basis. Heed my warning; this is one of the most powerful varieties of cannabis known to mankind. Handle with care, because these lines are known to leave even the most experienced of smokers pleading for mercy. Good luck out there, friends. However, if you go to Mr. Nice seeds to get your Widow you’re not going to need it.
A little BIG.....
From MNS-forums on the White/Black Widow;
Latrodectus mactans, also known as the southern Black Widow spider was the primary taxonomy used to describe the three species of spiders commonly referred to as the Black Widow spider prior to the early 1970’s. Unknown to most, there exists three species of the North American Black Widow spider. Along with Latrodectus mactans, the Latrodectus variolus (northern Black Widow) and Latrodectus hesperus (western Black Widow) are considered species of the North American Black Widow spider, not to be confused of course, with the false Black Widow spider. Such is the case with the infamous White Widow variety of cannabis, a strain of marijuana whose pedigree ultimately consists of a union between a South Indian hybrid and Brazilian Sativa. Her introduction to the masses in 1994 marked the end of an era in Dutch breeding circles and the beginning of a dynasty. Now known as Black Widow, the original White Widow would forever change the face of Dutch breeding and would go on too cement itself firmly as being among the most important strains of cannabis developed in the 20th century.
White Widow was originally bred by Shantibaba, the original founder, owner and head breeder of The Green House Seed Company (GHSC). The variety known as White Widow immediately catapulted itself into rock star status upon introduction to the public in 1994. Within a year of its initial release, White Widow took first place at the High Times Cannabis Cup in 1995 and a wave of copy cat White Widow varieties hit the market soon after. In 1996, both Nirvana and Dutch Passion seed companies purchased a single pack of White Widow seeds respectively from Shantibaba himself at the GHSC and within a year released their own versions of Widow. It wasn’t long before one would be hard pressed to find varieties of cannabis seed available from Holland that weren’t hybrids of the original White Widow released in 1994, literally breathing life into the Dutch cannabis breeding scene that had lagged in the time prior to White Widows release. For many years in Holland varieties such as Northern Lights, Skunk, Afghani and Haze were staples of the Dutch breeding community and with the introduction of White Widow came a renewed vigor in breeding top of the line, commercial and medicinal quality strains of cannabis. With success my friends, breeds greed and contempt for ones fellow man. A wave of White Widow varieties were available to the public by the late 1990’s, all of which were either hybrids a selected White Widow variety from a commercially available pack of F1 White Widow seeds from the GHSC, backcrosses from the original Widow or in some cases out right fraudulent lines to begin with. Having no true relation to the original Widow through hybridization or backcrossing. Imposters! To add to the growing complicated Widow landscape of the time, unscrupulous characters such as Ingemar, a former employee of the GHSC and self described breeder emerged claiming to be the true breeder of White Widow, offering their own version of the now legendary strain of cannabis. As if the whirlwind of disinformation wasn’t enough, along with Ingemar, yet another man who calls himself “Ecotronics” has laid claim to being the true breeder of White Widow and has been insistent everybody else is making money off of his line. While nothing is ever as black and white as it would seem from the outside looking in, it’s this kind of success and ultimately, confusion, that leads to the eventual name change of the original White Widow to the now proverbial Black Widow.
For those of you who may be in possession of genetics related to the Ingemar White Widow, but whom may be finding this article disappointing, I have you covered in that department as well. At one point in time, the man known as Ingemar worked for the GHSC, but if you were to believe Ingemar’s own account of the pedigree of his White Widow lines, one is left with the impression we are talking about distinctly different lines of White Widow from that of the Mr. Nice Seeds White Widow aka Black Widow. According to Ingemar, who now proudly assumes the title of “The Father of White Widow”, the pedigree of his line of White Widow is a secret, but that it was ultimately created from two seeds found in hand rolled hash which were subsequently selectively inbred for at least six years. Ingemar claims to have had access at the time to acres of land that he used to select the best plants from literally thousands of specimens. Again, the exact criteria Ingemar used to select his plants are kept a secret but he has been quoted as stating feed back from numerous medical users over the years played a role in the selection process of his particular White Widow line. According to Ingemar, the GHSC now uses his White Widow lines with express permission given solely to Arjan to use the name White Widow. In an ironic twist of fate, the GHSC now takes complete credit for the breeding and success of White Widow, without mention of either Ingemar or the true breeder of White Widow, Shantibaba, who of course is the only person in existence today with access to the original mother and father lines that created this now mythical variety of cannabis.
As was mentioned earlier, the pedigree of the Mr. Nice seeds Black Widow is the result of a union between a south Indian hybrid indica and a Brazilian sativa. The south Indian hybrid was found at Kovalum Beach, but it was ultimately cultivated in the surrounding mountainous terrain of Kerala. Shantibaba has stated in the past that the special qualities of the south Indian hybrid were enough for him to schedule a “safari” into the mountains of Kerala to find it on his Enfield bike. Within a few days, Shantibaba found himself “sitting in a café drinking a chai and smoking a joint”, when a middle aged, glassy eyed fellow approached him and helped finish off his smoke. After getting severely stoned and drinking the last of their tea, Shantibaba accompanied the man back to his farm only to discover this was the grower of the strain that had lead him into the mountains to begin with. After several days of testing numerous samples of marijuana, all of which had been cultivated, selected and “bred” for years based on resin production, selection was ultimately made on what would later become known as one half of the legendary pedigree of Black Widow. The man who helped Shantibaba finish his joint and ultimately supplied the seed that would later become known as the South Indian hybrid, told him that the seed had always been in his village, but that variation existed among the line depending on which village you visited to gather your wares. The plants are said to finish rather fast, but aesthetic wise have a sativa-esk appearance to them. Along with the Black Widow, several hybrids of this deadly lady have went on to garner much acclaim in their own right, most notably the White Rhino (now known as Medicine Man) and Great White Shark (also known as Peacemaker and Shark Shock), both of which have won a multitude of awards and cups in their own right, with the Medicine Mans pedigree consisting of Black Widow x Afghani and the Shark Shocks pedigree being Black Widow x Skunk#1. These are the original, “true blue” champion lines that garnered the reputations which precede themselves. Both lines find their ultimate pedigree traced back to the original White Widow bred by Shantibaba at the GHSC, now of Mr. Nice seeds (MNS), fronted by the legendary hash smuggler Howard Marks alongside the original “King of Cannabis”, Neville Schoenmaker.
It should be noted there are several Widow Hybrids available to the public from MNS, but all varieties containing the name Widow in the description come from either a select male or female cultivar, both from the same generation whom have underwent extensive testing. Hybrids such as Medicine Man, La Nina, G13xSkunk and Shark Shock are all varieties offered by MNS that encompass the Black Widow father as the main building block for their pedigrees. The exact formula of this male is somewhat of a mystery for all but the select few, however extensive breeding was done on the original White Widow (Black Widow) line and the male contains both the South Indian hybrid sativa/indica and the Brazilian Sativa. In very general terms, within a pack of seed of Black Widow one should expect the females to yield somewhere in the neighborhood of 350-400 grams per square meter. Of course it is phenotype dependant, but an experienced grower could probably do better with some time spent working with the line. Outdoors, the plants can be expected to finish by mid-October. Between the major three, Black Widow, Medicine Man and Shark Shock, the Medicine Man is touted as the fastest variety, coming in between mid September and October with the Shark Shock expected right around the beginning of October, give or a take a few days of course. Of all the hybrids however, Shantibaba describes the Shark Shock as the most successful breed of the ‘90s. One can not go wrong with any of the Widow selections; however the Black Widow is obviously perfect for the amateur breeder. If one was to find themselves in Amsterdam with some time to spare to try each line for them selves, according to Shantibaba the Katsu coffee shop on the Sarphatti Park, along with a gentleman known as Mr. Haze (supplier of official MNS gear to many Dutch coffee shops) and quite a few others stock the MNS Black Widow.
When it’s all said and done, at the end of the day, those at Mr. Nice Seeds hold the original parental lines that produced the White strains that won all of the acclaim in the mid to late 1990’s. The awards and cups are documented, and exist as irrefutable proof of the true origins of the White Widow line. These varieties of White lines are not nearly uncommon, but are of a quality rarely seen on a consistent basis that have managed to capture the hearts and minds of millions of cannabis enthusiasts the world over. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to be led in the wrong direction when it comes to the quest for the true White Widow. Now the picture should be painted much clearer for you. Though, the search has only just begun. Selection is the key to success with any variety, but with some diligence you too can have a mother plant that produces herb almost too toxic to indulge in on a consistent basis. Heed my warning; this is one of the most powerful varieties of cannabis known to mankind. Handle with care, because these lines are known to leave even the most experienced of smokers pleading for mercy. Good luck out there, friends. However, if you go to Mr. Nice seeds to get your Widow you’re not going to need it.
shantibaba did it... don't let ingemars talk fool you
blessss
blessss
FumanChuuuuu
New member
Shantibaba born in February 1964 in Melbourne Australia.
Am I wrong?
Am I wrong?
But in all honesty, Shanti is a stand-up guy...
And his Haze stock is authentic, as for labeling something Aussie Haze or something to that accord, I believe it was just a mistake at that time and place..
Clearly, he's working with Haze stock from 70's California, I can, at the very least, attest to that..
Everyone just light a fat
(Haze if ya got it! ) and relax...Then, start cleaning the house...
Bless
I was on back in those days... CW and OG mostly, but CC as well intermittently...
I remember this discussion Raco, among many great ones..
Hempy used to post these screenshots too, before he got the boot..
There was less hype back in those days, things seemed more genuine and I gleaned valued information with eyes wide..
They're still wide open these days, well, maybe a bit hazy...
JAH Bless
p.s. itsbenfun,
Obviously, folks respect Raco around here, well I do...
He's not a shit-slinger, in fact, he's a very knowledgeable person who offers help whenever anyone asks..
No need to be lecturing Raco, he's been around a looooooooooong while...
post-post muthafiznuckin scrizipT..
And as to who bred the White Widow???
This says it best...
Seriously though, that South Indian strain wasn't just some bush seeds Shanti picked up from some random tea-vendor..
It was an old man's strain, lived in Kerala I believe...
Was in his hands for many years before Shanti got it..
fwiw
FumanChuuuuu
New member
Interviews. I guess is real information. Always Dancing Date.
For example:
Sorry for my bad english.
Stdane
Active member
The real deal
The real deal
I think you're right on this Fumanchu,I'm from 1963 and he looks my age,certainly not 10 yrs older or younger,so if he smoked or bred in the 70's,well he started very early lol,but then again who didnt....I was 14 when I sucked on my first chillum....remember the hands position on this hashpipe... and the hash man,red lebanese,gold stamped black afghan and pollen maroc...those were the days...oops sorry gettin' all nostalgic here.
As to Shantibaba,he's the real deal,I've chatted with him on his forums,regarding some saeeds I bought there,the germ rate was low apperently on this particular batch,nevertheless I had germed 7 outta 15,and he gave some advice on how to proceed and at the end at conversation he said that I would receive a new pack of Shit,I told him there was no need for that,as I might not have treated them as I should have,but he just said that the germrate wasn't as good as it could have been,and therefore he would send some new ones.
I gotta tip my hat fer a man like that,full of knowledge,kind and respectful.
The real deal
I think you're right on this Fumanchu,I'm from 1963 and he looks my age,certainly not 10 yrs older or younger,so if he smoked or bred in the 70's,well he started very early lol,but then again who didnt....I was 14 when I sucked on my first chillum....remember the hands position on this hashpipe... and the hash man,red lebanese,gold stamped black afghan and pollen maroc...those were the days...oops sorry gettin' all nostalgic here.
As to Shantibaba,he's the real deal,I've chatted with him on his forums,regarding some saeeds I bought there,the germ rate was low apperently on this particular batch,nevertheless I had germed 7 outta 15,and he gave some advice on how to proceed and at the end at conversation he said that I would receive a new pack of Shit,I told him there was no need for that,as I might not have treated them as I should have,but he just said that the germrate wasn't as good as it could have been,and therefore he would send some new ones.
I gotta tip my hat fer a man like that,full of knowledge,kind and respectful.
- Status
