which qualities to look for when choosing a male plant for seeds?

[Farmer John]

Muahaha thanks for the laugh Verite!

 

[Dkgrower]

Greath read, I toked 2 joints and found alot very informative.

I grow outdoor and that is where i do my breeding.

I have always been confused on choosing what male, so I always turned out to cut the first males and waited abit so more males turn up and pick one out of them.
The latest males to show I always get rid off.

When I realized that males ofcause also have a thing to say., I started to rub the stem to get a sence of the smell. also go with the healthy males. Newer used the stem to tjeck.

One time I was lurking in on a freinds project, he tryed fore some time to make a seed line fore greenhouse growing out of a skunk no 1, that he loved so much.

He tryed many things, one day where he were a my house, he to some cutting of some outdoor plants that growing, we numbered them and he got some 15 males, he crossed all of them to the skunk#1, the results there where some variation in each seed line, but in one of them the plants where very similar and they realy performed well under the greenhouse. The male was a under dog and was very small one and one off the lateste in flowering. A note all the male had the room and light to show there real statue so this trend small/late flowering this male had was in the gens.

Thanks all fore the input.

Dkgrower.

 

[Elephant Man]

Just wanted to say hello to all and thank you for this thread.

This info could not have come at a better time for me.

I am new to growing, but due to injury, I have been able to devote nearly all my time to it....mixed blessing.

I am driven by a passion to help those that need it grow there meds, even if they are as frugal as I am...recycling soil, micro, whatever weirdness I do. New to posting here, but I am 'all over the net'.

Sorry for the off-topic intro...but I felt an introduction was necessary for those who have taught me so much indirectly...hopefully we will cross paths again very soon.

I learned early on that cloning to me is a 'tool' and a boring monotonous thing I am done with, other than feeling a BX may be necessary, I avoid it as much as possible.

Since I grow from seed, I have to make my own. I do not NEED to distribute my cured flowers, or my seed...so I really don't see any harm in doing this. Yeild, flower times, are also my least concern, no trouble so far growing enough for myself.

Of course though, I want healthy plants, which is why I am posting here.

Really trying to get to the question guys (and gals)...please bear with me.

One more short off topic...I lean toward sativa high (love growing them too), and although I do not have a field in Columbia, I am very interested in trying to do my part in the preservation of 'landrace' sativas...if there are any left...I will try to keep from invoking that topic.

Ok...I lied...one more off topic. I try to grow outdoor...but indoor. I use all organics, soilbeds, various sprectrum light and cycles, huge sativas controlled by 'born in flower', yada yada....basically my little 'indoor garden'.

(applause) Finally the question.

Given a population of ...say...100...will natural selection work? Fems seem really easy to choose , but I have been staring at males for weeks...without actually making it to the progeny stage, out of say...50 (10 strains) full flowered males, I have only 2 that stand out.

But...as pointed out by Suzy (very nice layman's descriptions, thank you) it appears to me, that unless I use progeny for male selection (fems too?) I miss out on variety, because of recessive genes.

Thanks for reading along, if you made it this far...here is the question.

I have only begun to understand Mendel's and the amazing hybrids 'built' by a few...anything I do in that area right now will be trial and error until I learn more.

But 'landraces' (99% sativa or whatever) bring up many more questions...assuming I locate one, can I just let natural selection do it's thing? (inbreed only)

You might see some 'ignorance' come out it seems, honestly, it is not...it is noob eagerness. Whenever I fail to understand something, I apply what my grandmother taught me in the garden , simple farming stuff. So far with organics it has worked...so I guess by some of your posts, I am thinking I can use something similar?

A soilbed 100X open pollenation with...say...10 males and 90 fems? Cull half? Choose...say....10 fems and 3 males?

Please, everyone understand, I know the legal dangers of populations, and yes...I do filter intake and exhaust in 'this room'. I am curious what some more experienced and knowledged here would suggest I try? I value ALL of your opinions.

Thank you...Eman.

 

[Guest]

A soilbed 100X open pollenation with...say...10 males and 90 fems? Cull half? Choose...say....10 fems and 3 males?

For preservation of the gene pool use as many plants as possible for a open pollination. We always flower the males separately as small plants and collect the pollen, mix and pollinate the females. Plants do not have to be bigger than will give you sufficient seeds from all. While doing this select your 10 females and 3 males by the methods you wish to use take cuttings and make another accession with those selections whilst keeping the bulk of the seeds mixed and stored from the open pollination as a preserved line.

Given a population of ...say...100...will natural selection work?

Natural selection within a Landrace line is a natural process obviously. But it is not possible to re create their natural habitat and seasonal fluctuations or numbers indoors, and i think your referring to indoors? which is a very non natural environment that will place its own selection pressure on the line, so it would not 'work' indoors if that is what you mean..

Nice thread..

All the best, hhf

 

[Guest]

What about UVb as a selection pressure for males in early development as was explored by Vic High, anyone used these strategies? there is discussion on the old BCGA message boards..this is a snippet of a old conversation at Marihemp.

Vic High..

UB - selecting the right male has long been a challange for me, I never want more than 5% of a seedgrowout used as seed parents for the next generation. That is alot of selective pressure if used correctly. I've long on this before, if not at CW, then probably here. Anyway, apart from all the standards like vigour, phenotype, aroma, etc, I am now playing with UVb. My reasoning is that those best protected from UVB (thc content effects this?) should be the most potent. What is strange is that others have independantly observed that the more aromatic males tend to be their better males. And the aromatic males in my garden have faired the best under intense UVb exposure. So there may be something there, time will tell. In time, I can see some sort of spectrometry or chromatography such as GLC being used to determine the cannabinoid profile of males as part of the selection process.

Much of our ideas are unsubstantiated so whatever the selection methods, ultimately Soul hit the nail on the head, you don't know if you made the right choices until you look at the daughters.

all the best, hhf

 

[Elephant Man]

For preservation of the gene pool use as many plants as possible for a open pollination. We always flower the males separately as small plants and collect the pollen, mix and pollinate the females. Plants do not have to be bigger than will give you sufficient seeds from all. While doing this select your 10 females and 3 males by the methods you wish to use take cuttings and make another accession with those selections whilst keeping the bulk of the seeds mixed and stored from the open pollination as a preserved line.



Natural selection within a Landrace line is a natural process obviously. But it is not possible to re create their natural habitat and seasonal fluctuations or numbers indoors, and i think your referring to indoors? which is a very non natural environment that will place its own selection pressure on the line, so it would not 'work' indoors if that is what you mean..

Nice thread..

All the best, hhf

Very valuable info...cant thank you enough. Let's just say for arguements sake, that I get this strain. I know I cannot 'prevent' it from adapting to me, just a guy playing with dirt wanting to hold on to something as long as possible. I could possibly push 250x....but I feel anything less than 100 would pe pointless (as you stated). I simply do not enjoy cloning. I am not afraid to make a mess, and I promise to keep it to myself...I am stubborn enough to wind up in 'hermieville' I guess...so I thought I would try asking first.

I am just a turkey chilling with eagles here, looking for someone to take me under their wing...my last 'mentor' is MIA. I am not trying to create a 'business' or 'name for myself'...just old fashioned growing, learning and sharing...nothing more. Should I in the next 10 years or so, feel I learned something about growing...or even what I like to smoke...then perhaps I will relocate somewhere like Africa and try to make a difference...other than that...just looking for advice.

 

[fjällhöga]

often i dont clone my plants for selection ...
ex: i started the pack Old Time Moonshine , culled all cripples after 4 weeks .. , 2 females which are looking promising , 1 AF male which was culled and 1 unsexed plant , no clones at all !!! I will prepare both of the females for revegging when the time has come .... , then im waiting for the nugs to dry and cure about 2 weeks to get the greenyness out of the nug , then im testin daily another plant .. , every time at first smoke of the day ... , When those nugs (all) are smoked up a decision should be on its way , if not , all plants prepared for revegg should started to produce new growth by now .... , wait some more weeks and take cuttings ... [ so you can avoid a to long veg to get the plants mature , {26 weeks} ] , no mess with labeling 10´s of clones , maybe more ...

sry for going off topic like this

Fj

 

[NdefusableChrnc]

There is another thing I never mentioned which may be most important in male selection, but that doesn't really occur on a quantifiable level so I leave it out. Having an intuition and being in tune with your garden helps alot...

HEAD,
i'd like you to explain this to me.
.. do you just keep it in mind and will the goodness to show? it'd be hard to put myself down on a undercover cross dresser.
what if God took a male gene out to make a female of his creation aside from man

as a recap for everyone, this shit has not been figured out yet and you'd need to map the genome. in the end it'd be nice if males were as potent as females. great looking males were selected over time to produce the greatest looking females; that in itself is probably a ratio or tendancy that has been influenced.
i'm wondering how long cannabis has been bred this way and if there is a time where an elite girl at the time came from or even descended from a poindexter. but then you got guys like from dexter's laboratory.
if this strain can inbreed itself to survive, doesnt the male side need to know how to produce the juice. i wouldnt say the same thing about vegatative growth though.

 

[guest123]

hey guys , did u all consider that testing a plant isnt just growing it indoors??
and quite possible climate , environment and a host of other things can also influence your seed making attempts ??
ive selected heaps of males and females and made seeds ,, tested them over and over etc ...
but ive also grown heaps of seeds that were made from random males and females from where i grow ,, and i can tell u they were often the most impressive of all ,,, obviously there were goers and non goers ,, but the cream of the crop far outdid the best of the chosen parent stock ... only problem was the randomness ....
given that i generally will grow seeds from select and tested parents ,, cause best to know what your going to end up with ,,,, bit like buying a dog ,, u can read about temperment , behaviour etc ,, before u decide if it suits u .....

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

HEAD,
i'd like you to explain this to me.
.. do you just keep it in mind and will the goodness to show? it'd be hard to put myself down on a undercover cross dresser.
what if God took a male gene out to make a female of his creation aside from man

as a recap for everyone, this shit has not been figured out yet and you'd need to map the genome. in the end it'd be nice if males were as potent as females. great looking males were selected over time to produce the greatest looking females; that in itself is probably a ratio or tendancy that has been influenced.
i'm wondering how long cannabis has been bred this way and if there is a time where an elite girl at the time came from or even descended from a poindexter. but then you got guys like from dexter's laboratory.
if this strain can inbreed itself to survive, doesnt the male side need to know how to produce the juice. i wouldnt say the same thing about vegatative growth though.

Absolutely... It has nothing to do with 'willing' anything to happen... Though an abstract concept, being in tune with your garden and breeding by 'intuition' is in no way a metaphysical one... It would not make much sense for me to try to say that one could "wish a plant to elite status"...

It is more about combining science and feeling... having a general sense for the plant and a feel for how crosses go together... Not to imply that any breeders today are prodigies, but In my mind it is similar to the way that a untrained composer who has a feel for the music can put out symphonies of renown without ever being able to explain the technical aspects of music theory... He doesn't write down a page full of notes and then 'will' them to become music, he has an innate intuition about how they need to be put together to become music.

 

[NdefusableChrnc]

but ive also grown heaps of seeds that were made from random males and females from where i grow ,, and i can tell u they were often the most impressive of all ,,, obviously there were goers and non goers ,, but the cream of the crop far outdid the best of the chosen parent stock ... only problem was the randomness ....
.....

anyone else know if shanibaba, dj short, rez, head, etc... have found their genius fathers more often than not by not biasing the father candidates?

if a line has become solidly stabilized by pro breeders than wouldnt the males already carry the trait for potency for their daughters at pretty much the same rate? i guess this would be betting on you dont find a king kong among these males in your lifetime

does it seem likely to breed males to have as much potency as females ?

if they have not found the gene in males which relates to female potency, isnt it possible in the smallest sense that we wouldnt know if males even have an affect on the potency of their daughters ?

im pretty sure after all this time shantibaba, dj short or some old guys have gone through finding out odds on this and sooner or later you'd find at least one correlation with all of them, extra resin i dont know; but i'd like you guys to put yourselves down on this one and tell me

the best father is either the most true breeding to the mother, enhances the mother, or is just lotto to begin wiht so you plan for at least noding, growth, flower time, shape etc

how were the fathers for c99 picked ?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Actually, most of the guys you've named have their own ideas about what signs to look for in males... Everyone can only base their ideas on their own experiences and the experiences of those they trust, and the expressions of cannabis are varied enough that a definitive identifiable 'list' of sure fire elite male flags would be impossible to come up with...

Of course as has been suggested here observable traits are the only initial way to narrow a field of prospective parents. I suggest initially selecting away from weakness in males, and selecting toward strengths in females. Once this initial selection is done, growing out progeny and testing give you more narrowing of the field, until the majority of the progeny come out with the most potential of having the desired genotype.

There are resinous males, and they are good to use. There are not so resinous males that would be equally as good to use. The same can be said for hollow stems, or any other marker. That is why I say initial male selection should be mainly selecting away from weaknesses... I also like to consider the structure of the males and their flower density fairly highly in selecting. (i.e. in a field of 20 healthy males of differing phenotype which show no real weaknesses, I might narrow it down to the 5 with the densest flower clusters, and the most favorable size and structure for the project.

 

[farmerlion]

It is so impressive to see adult's discuss and disagree and not start name calling. I have just recently joined this site. You all should be applauded on the quality of people you are. keep up the good work!!!

 

[Guest]

Mutant males are bad? How do we know?
If this is true aren't mutant females or females with genes that can go mutant bad?

I have some blueberry x williams wonders vegging
cripsy leaf look,slight maroon coloration at the new growth

weird.. and it toped itself


Im going to guess the blueberry is DJ's and the williams wonder is rez's

So the mutant genes are pretty strong.. and any cross I may do could go mutant?

Same goes for 3leafs per node?
Sour Diesel IBL x Deep Chunk

Double Strawberry Diesel

Pure Power Plant
far right.. this one I got a picture of where it started to grow as a tri node.

These didn't always look this way thou,they switched when I switched them to 12/12 also the majority of them went male and didn't get that big at all. No growth regulators where used..

I see people saying don't throw out your mutant females all the time because they may turn into something great. Why not for male?

With some mutants "snapping out of it" and growing regular. Maybe every plants has mutant genes and DJ did something to make em come out.
ducksfoot is pretty weird..if that was to fall in my lap before I knew about it I'd probably call that a mutant heh.
wonder what else is locked away in cannabis

I'm a newbie just learning to grow and breed,if I make no sense just ignore me heh.