which qualities to look for when choosing a male plant for seeds?

[suzycremecheese]

when DJ Short stated from his experiance hollow stemmed plants produce potent plants then another experianced grower states hollow stemmed plants are weak could it be that the genes they are working with have this linkage? like one has hollow/strong and the other hollow/weak

Yes, youve got it. Its very possible that a few of the genes that control potency, and the genes that control stem hollowness, are very very close on the same chromosome. One grower may find that hollow stems and potent plants seem to always go hand in hand. If the grower doesnt grow out hundreds of plants, or maybe even more, they may never see this linkage break.

Its possible that somewhere, while working a different line, the exact opposite is true for some other grower. These traits are still tightly linked but another grower finds that hollow stems seem to always make hemp.

If enough hybrid seed is grown out, assuming this became a focus of a breeding project, this linkage can be broken and either grower can produce plants with the opposite results.

 

[Verite]

My take on it is its a lot like riding a bicycle.. eventually you get better at it or your gear suffers. Sure is a hella lot easier picking nice females out of the crowd but if you dont get good at picking out the stellar males your stuff is going to have a tough time improving.

While I havent heard it mentioned yet one of the things I rely on heavily when selecting my males is the 'upper stalk rub-down check' where I take a taller male [ 12+ inches or taller ] and rub the upper nodes of the main stalk between my forefinger and thumb then rub my fingers together and give it a good whiff.

The 'feeling' Im looking for is a greasy oily stick high in terpenes that Ive come to associate with more potent males and the scent Im looking for is similar to the smell when you ruffle the tops of the plant. Ive trashed perfect looking males that didnt pass this test. Fortunately theres been plenty of males to choose from.

 

[Ganico]

I plan to simply use pollen from all the males, until I know what the hell I'm doing properly. Any obviously bad plants will be chucked though, freaks,mutants,etc.

How's that for a real goon ass plan?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I do the same thing, verite...
With All of this being said, and cannabis breeding being illegal everywhere in the world...
Almost every cannabis grower has a limited amount of space, and test-crossing every male and growing out the progeny on a meaningful scale is nearly impossible...
Some selection has to be made, and some criteria have to be used for said selection...
If some selection criteria have to be used, then the age old process of selecting desirable traits and culling undesirable traits seems to be the best initial method to reduce male numbers. From here I completely agree that selected males need to be 'test bred' in order to make final decisions on breeding stock...
Sure you may inadvertantly cull the 'best' male, but 'best' is a bit subjective since everyone does not have the same taste...

 

[Guest]

Rock Paper Scissors

That is what selections seem like to me. I'm not a whiz here in this field of discovery. I tend to only crack open a book when there is something escaping a more sound and complete interpretation of my observations.

Looking at animal and plant life, often times, a dominant trait is but marginally dominant. Usually aided by the environment. Switch environments, recessive traits can become dominant, yes?

I have only recently begun selective breeding and found myself at a hurdle...I'm pursuing what I've (no idea if I'm correct here) determined to be a recessive trait of the two phenotypes that emerged from the mother. I want short, stout, bushy plants. Which seems to be losing out to a taller, awfully symmetrical trait. I'd like that trait to get kicked to the curb. I find a taller plant to be just too darn prone to damage here in the hurricane belt. I truly do not appreciate the sight of a plant having been plowed over by wind.

So how do I go about fostering a recessive trait to overcome the unwanted dominant trait? Thats when Rock Paper Scissors comes to mind.

Space is a key issue for me. Keeping ten males around, isolated, waiting on the outcome of the progeny....sheesh eh! I see every husked over embryo as potentially being 'the one'. Which has me tending toward always wanting to germinate one more.
Utterly impractical considering limited available space.

My appreciation to those that have made sound observations and have gone about sharing their knowledge with others...thank you.

 

[Dignan]

Almost every cannabis grower has a limited amount of space, and test-crossing every male and growing out the progeny on a meaningful scale is nearly impossible...
Some selection has to be made, and some criteria have to be used for said selection...
If some selection criteria have to be used, then the age old process of selecting desirable traits and culling undesirable traits seems to be the best initial method to reduce male numbers. From here I completely agree that selected males need to be 'test bred' in order to make final decisions on breeding stock...

That was very well said. There is the ideal scenario (large scale that is available only to a few folks) and then the reality of the situation. I still believe it's very important to discuss/learn about what true breeding would require should we ever find ourselves in the ideal scenario.

 

[suzycremecheese]

I plan to simply use pollen from all the males, until I know what the hell I'm doing properly. Any obviously bad plants will be chucked though, freaks,mutants,etc.
How's that for a real goon ass plan?

Actually Ganico thats a great plan. If you have the time and space to keep track of your pollinations youll be able to tell via the progeny which males are really the keepers.

With All of this being said, and cannabis breeding being illegal everywhere in the world...
Almost every cannabis grower has a limited amount of space, and test-crossing every male and growing out the progeny on a meaningful scale is nearly impossible...
Some selection has to be made, and some criteria have to be used for said selection...
If some selection criteria have to be used, then the age old process of selecting desirable traits and culling undesirable traits seems to be the best initial method to reduce male numbers. From here I completely agree that selected males need to be 'test bred' in order to make final decisions on breeding stock...

Sure but since there is no statistical proof that any of these male selection techniques work you may actully be wating more time and space and making less progress than if you took it slow and did your progeny tests.

According to studies with other dioecious plants, basing your selection of non target sex plants on traits normally attributed to the target sex is usually not productive.

Looking at animal and plant life, often times, a dominant trait is but marginally dominant. Usually aided by the environment. Switch environments, recessive traits can become dominant, yes?

I see your dilemma will. Obviously you know a little about Mendel but inheritance of traits goes way beyond dominant and recessive. If only it was black and white like this we'd have mapped the cannbais genome in a closet.

The fact of the matter is that most of the traits that Cannabis growers are concerned with are quantitative meaning they are controlled by more than one gene. This gives more possibilites than just tall and short. It gives the possibility of everything in between and then the environment, as you pointed out plays a role. If only it ended there.

Then there is epistatsis...
Read up on it and if you want we can discuss it more...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistasis

That was very well said. There is the ideal scenario (large scale that is available only to a few folks) and then the reality of the situation. I still believe it's very important to discuss/learn about what true breeding would require should we ever find ourselves in the ideal scenario.

Yes grateful makes a good point. It doesnt matter what works best if you end up in jail doing it. However there is room for improvement even with low plant numbers.

I've said a few times before, maybe even in this thread, that its important to try to use an equal number of males and females. I forget the equation of the top of my head but I will look it up... If you use 1 male, regardless of how many females you use, your effective breeding population is always going to be less than 4. All the plants in your population will carry the genes from that male. That reduces diversity significantly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_population_size

 

[Guest]

Hey suzy...thanks for the link. Grasped it. As well as now find myself wondering the role of epistasis in determining sex when, according to the page, science is working off of a theory...'Negative epistasis and sex are thought to be intimately correlated'

Correct me if mistaken...theoritically, with breeding, one could produce a pheno with seed that one would expect to be consistently male, or, expect to be female. With the occassional mutant maturing into the other sex? Would the short-cut be skipping to the chase and using microscopic infusion of genetic material into a plants DNA to actively control a plant's sex?

 

[suzycremecheese]

Correct me if mistaken...theoritically, with breeding, one could produce a pheno with seed that one would expect to be consistently male, or, expect to be female. With the occassional mutant maturing into the other sex?

Theoretically it can be done and is done with some crops.

For example. In asparagus the desired sex is the male. It produces the best spears. So in the final step of asparagus breeding The female is crossed to a super male... A super male being YY for the sex chromosomes. XX being female and XY being male. So when you cross an XX to a YY you always get XY. The same is done in cannabis with feminization. If a herm XX plant pollinates a XX female you can only get females and herms.

Theoretically if the female is stressed to herm and doesnt carry and genes for herming you should not get any herms. I dont know much about htis end of the science though so Im just repeating what I've heard. If you use a genetic XX herm and an XX female you should expect females and herms.

http://aesop.rutgers.edu/~asparagus/program/male.html

 

[Verite]

... I've said a few times before, maybe even in this thread, that its important to try to use an equal number of males and females. I forget the equation of the top of my head but I will look it up... If you use 1 male, regardless of how many females you use, your effective breeding population is always going to be less than 4. All the plants in your population will carry the genes from that male. That reduces diversity significantly...

Is this similar to whats seen in the dog breeding world where selective inbreeding has caused inherent problems in certain breeds like Dalmations, etc?

Also at what point would diversity work against the strain? Early/late developement? Could you end up diversifying a strain to the point where selecting 'specials' from a sea of mediocres would be downright impossible on a small scale grow?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Sure but since there is no statistical proof that any of these male selection techniques work you may actully be wating more time and space and making less progress than if you took it slow and did your progeny tests.

According to studies with other dioecious plants, basing your selection of non target sex plants on traits normally attributed to the target sex is usually not productive.

Yes grateful makes a good point. It doesnt matter what works best if you end up in jail doing it. However there is room for improvement even with low plant numbers.

I don't need statistical proof... I grow out my seeds and my breeding methods result in improvements over the parents, repeatedly...

Why do I need statistics, when I get results? Sure there is always an ideal way and if anyone wants to set me up in a super secret underground laboratory with 100 seperate 1000 watt rooms I'll do things the ideal way...

Yes there is room for improvement even with low plant numbers, and selecting away from undesirable expressions and toward desirable ones is the only way to achieve it in a timely manner...

There is another thing I never mentioned which may be most important in male selection, but that doesn't really occur on a quantifiable level so I leave it out. Having an intuition and being in tune with your garden helps alot...

 

[suzycremecheese]

I don't need statistical proof... I grow out my seeds and my breeding methods result in improvements over the parents, repeatedly...

I'm sorry Grateful I didnt mean to insinuate that you werent making improvements. Just that without the research we cant prove your line is improving as much as it is capable of.

That is what this thread is about after all. Male selection. I didnt mean any offense by it at all. I'm not hear to criticize the way you anyone else does anything. If they are having success it is working for them and then why should they change.

 

[suzycremecheese]

Is this similar to whats seen in the dog breeding world where selective inbreeding has caused inherent problems in certain breeds like Dalmations, etc?

I guess that there is some correlation but I think plants like Cannabis are much more forgiving than mammals. Animals are capable of a fraction of the offspring per mating that Cannabis is, and a female Cannabis plant can simultaneously carry the seed of many males. I believe this, as well as some other factors, make Cannabis much more forgiving of inbreeding than any animal.

Also at what point would diversity work against the strain? Early/late developement? Could you end up diversifying a strain to the point where selecting 'specials' from a sea of mediocres would be downright impossible on a small scale grow?

Not sure if I totally grasp the question. If your doing preservation/ conservation the idea would be to prevent the loss of alleles from a population. There are many reasons for doing so. Most likely commercial and closet grows arent part of that.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I'm sorry Grateful I didnt mean to insinuate that you werent making improvements. Just that without the research we cant prove your line is improving as much as it is capable of.

That is what this thread is about after all. Male selection. I didnt mean any offense by it at all. I'm not hear to criticize the way you anyone else does anything. If they are having success it is working for them and then why should they change.

No sorry's necessary, and no insinuations taken... I know My breeding methods aren't being attacked, just discussed... Funny thing, I would've thought more breeders willing to come into this thread and discuss their methods... But maybe too many people think of questions and discussion/debate as confrontational...

I'm really enjoying the thread, and the discussion, and agree with almost everything you've said suzy, from one perspective or another...

Most certianly we cannot ever be sure that any breeding project is reaching it's 'maximum improvement potential' unless every possible male is used... I'd love to have the facilities to do a more in depth comprehensive breeding project... maybe someday... I'm actually making a facility upgrade at the moment, but not to the super secret underground complex...

Peace and Love

 

[Farmer John]

Well, I already said that my "method" is the same that human has used before there were labs, I just try and select always the plants that are healthy and have something I like, I dont have or need any scientific proof , if something works and pleases me then I keep it and probably love it, if not, then I have to try something else, I do my selection by watching and growing plants not their dna, if something works then it works if not then not and you dont need to be a scientist to see what happens, helps a lot if one uses well bred or landrace, in out and back crossed - whatever you want, plants as parents and not some silly polyhybrids or any other hermie factories, not to say that breeding hermies isnt the way-for some it is, but anyhoo, you all get my point, human has done this selction through its history, kinda the same thing about men wanting beautiful women as mother of their children.:smile:

 

[Brownpants]

The fact of the matter is that most of the traits that Cannabis growers are concerned with are quantitative meaning they are controlled by more than one gene. This gives more possibilities than just tall and short. It gives the possibility of everything in between and then the environment, as you pointed out plays a role. If only it ended there.

I disagree with this statement. There is not enough information available at the moment to speculate that most of the traits are quantitative. CBD to THC ratios is thought to be controlled by a single gene, also plant height is also thought to be co-dominantly controlled as well. I am sure there are many more examples of specific traits being controlled by single genes.
To me, Quantitative traits in cannabis are represented by more general traits like plant vigour or complex aromatic terpenoid combinations. I believe the aroma of cannabis is controlled by more than one gene, each gene controlling a different terpenoid molecule(s). Specific aromas like pineapple or blueberry appear when other terpenoid genes have been turned "off", while complex aromas appear in a cumulative fashion when more than one gene has been turned "on" creating more general aromas like sweet, foul, or sweet and foul at the same time. This is of course an overly simplified example.

Also, when working on a new strain Mendelian genetics is more useful than population genetics. But if you are working on a small population like a landrace strain, then population genetics becomes more important to secure the health of the population. This is where you need a certain amount of males breeding with a certain amount of females to secure enough genetic variability within the population to withstand diseases or other environmental changes.

Just my 2 cents of the day.
-BP-

 

[Farmer John]

And of course the other way around, women wanting handsome men as breeding tools lmao.

 

[suzycremecheese]

I would've thought more breeders willing to come into this thread and discuss their methods... But maybe too many people think of questions and discussion/debate as confrontational...

Or maybe someone has some technique that they havent heard mentioned before and they want to keep it to themselves.

 

[GMT]

My methods are simple, I just pick the ones with 3 leaves lol.

 

[Verite]

Or maybe someone has some technique that they havent heard mentioned before and they want to keep it to themselves.

" Crap, busted again.. maybe if I hold real still they'll just walk away. "