G
Guest
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southwind
Member
Males
Males
Hello BABALU
I am not the expert on cannabis but have alot of horticultural and botanical knowledge.
It depends on what you are looking for and how much space and time you have.
Breeding can be as complex or easy as you want it to be.
If you want to find real dominant traits that takes some time and a couple grows of that type to find out unless someone else has already identified the traits.
But if you want to just do some basic crossing pick the male that looks like it has the traits you want and fertilize your females.
If you dont have a trait in mind just pick your healthiest most robust male.
Remember that males flower earlier than females and will have spent all their pollen by the time the females have enough pistils to make a good amount of seeds, but also do it early enough for seeds to mature.
Depending on the type, thats from 30 to 70 days for some equatorial types of C. Sativa (I have heard).
Remember immature seeds are not viable, often,but not always very light colored seeds are immature.
An easy wat to check your seeds to make sure they are good is to "pinch" them, just take one and squeeze in your fingers, if it pops easily, its bad.
Something I do if I have the time is to take a piece of cardboard, punch small holes , just big enough for the seed to rest in, and put it over a strong light, if you can see light through the seed , its bad.
To find out more about breeding do a search here for making seeds, breeding and look on the internet for Mendelian Genetics.
Good luck and most of all enjoy making your crosses and breeding.
Dont be like me and get all obsessed and get to invested in outcome.
Personally I enjoy picking through buds for seeds as much as growing them, and then making gifts of the seeds, its just plain good karma.
sw
Males
Hello BABALU
I am not the expert on cannabis but have alot of horticultural and botanical knowledge.
It depends on what you are looking for and how much space and time you have.
Breeding can be as complex or easy as you want it to be.
If you want to find real dominant traits that takes some time and a couple grows of that type to find out unless someone else has already identified the traits.
But if you want to just do some basic crossing pick the male that looks like it has the traits you want and fertilize your females.
If you dont have a trait in mind just pick your healthiest most robust male.
Remember that males flower earlier than females and will have spent all their pollen by the time the females have enough pistils to make a good amount of seeds, but also do it early enough for seeds to mature.
Depending on the type, thats from 30 to 70 days for some equatorial types of C. Sativa (I have heard).
Remember immature seeds are not viable, often,but not always very light colored seeds are immature.
An easy wat to check your seeds to make sure they are good is to "pinch" them, just take one and squeeze in your fingers, if it pops easily, its bad.
Something I do if I have the time is to take a piece of cardboard, punch small holes , just big enough for the seed to rest in, and put it over a strong light, if you can see light through the seed , its bad.
To find out more about breeding do a search here for making seeds, breeding and look on the internet for Mendelian Genetics.
Good luck and most of all enjoy making your crosses and breeding.
Dont be like me and get all obsessed and get to invested in outcome.
Personally I enjoy picking through buds for seeds as much as growing them, and then making gifts of the seeds, its just plain good karma.
sw
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G
Guest
BABALU
Dj Short's "Cultivating Exceptional Cannabis" has two sections which he talks about his methods for selecting a male plant..... which plants to eliminate and what to look for.
The Art of Breeding//Producing Exceptional Seeds
here's a small snip from Dj's book..... "Males can be tested by smoking or otherwise consuming them. I use only fresh tips, properly cured and rolled into a joint"
Jlp's first link is - Marijuana Botany by R.C. Clarke
Scientific Reference Bibliography
Dj Short's "Cultivating Exceptional Cannabis" has two sections which he talks about his methods for selecting a male plant..... which plants to eliminate and what to look for.
The Art of Breeding//Producing Exceptional Seeds
here's a small snip from Dj's book..... "Males can be tested by smoking or otherwise consuming them. I use only fresh tips, properly cured and rolled into a joint"
Jlp's first link is - Marijuana Botany by R.C. Clarke
Scientific Reference Bibliography
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suzycremecheese
Active member
The best way to evaluate the potential of a male is to cross him to the female in question and evaluate their female progeny. A male is only as good as the daughters he makes and you will only know how good his daughters are after you make them.
This is why I suggest using all available healthy males when making a cross and then culling the females progeny. By culling males before they are properly evaluated you risk losing the best males.
There is way too much going on in the Cannabis genome for you to be able to pick the best male using your senses to evaluate his traits before you breed him. Its like an iceberg. There is so much going on below the surface that you just cant know whats there without running into it.
good luck.
This is why I suggest using all available healthy males when making a cross and then culling the females progeny. By culling males before they are properly evaluated you risk losing the best males.
There is way too much going on in the Cannabis genome for you to be able to pick the best male using your senses to evaluate his traits before you breed him. Its like an iceberg. There is so much going on below the surface that you just cant know whats there without running into it.
good luck.
Charles Xavier
Member
Greetings BABALU.
There is a tremendous difference between phenotypic expression and genotypic inheritance. The best females, for any specific trait, don't always produce offspring exhibiting that trait. The same holds true for the males.
Even under the most favourable of circumstances: an absolute awareness of genotype coupled with Mendelian laws, it's still an educated guess. The laws predict probability and possibility, not actuality.
The only way to evaluate is to progeny test.
Sincerely,
Charles.
There is a tremendous difference between phenotypic expression and genotypic inheritance. The best females, for any specific trait, don't always produce offspring exhibiting that trait. The same holds true for the males.
Even under the most favourable of circumstances: an absolute awareness of genotype coupled with Mendelian laws, it's still an educated guess. The laws predict probability and possibility, not actuality.
The only way to evaluate is to progeny test.
Sincerely,
Charles.
another excerpt from Dj´s book ....
-any male plant that grows to tall or to fast is usually eliminated . the reason for this is that most plants that dedicate so much energy to fiber production are generally best for fiber production.......
..................... Large, hollow main stem are sought while pith filled are eliminated .backed by years of observation , hollow stems do seemto facilitate THC production ....
-any male plant that grows to tall or to fast is usually eliminated . the reason for this is that most plants that dedicate so much energy to fiber production are generally best for fiber production.......
..................... Large, hollow main stem are sought while pith filled are eliminated .backed by years of observation , hollow stems do seemto facilitate THC production ....
The strategy I use when selecting males, is to select for traits I wish to continue in a line or test in a cross. Most often I select for structure (including nodal spacing, branching paterns, and flower number/density), Trichome presence, Vigor, and Aroma. The perspective fathers are then test bred to see how the traits inherit, and either kept for future projects or culled.
suzycremecheese
Active member
What happened to babalu's posts?
This assumes that the genes that control these different traits are linked. Meaning they are so close to each other on the same chromosome that they dont independantly assort. That may be the case, but due to chiasma, a "crossing over" can occur and these traits can occur seperately. While the incidence may be reduced once this crossing over occurs the these traits now travel together opposite of how FJ pointed out and this linkage is rarely borken.
The point is if you rely on things like this to select males you may be eliminating the best ones.
When I have more time I will try to explain linkage better.
FJ said:
This assumes that the genes that control these different traits are linked. Meaning they are so close to each other on the same chromosome that they dont independantly assort. That may be the case, but due to chiasma, a "crossing over" can occur and these traits can occur seperately. While the incidence may be reduced once this crossing over occurs the these traits now travel together opposite of how FJ pointed out and this linkage is rarely borken.
The point is if you rely on things like this to select males you may be eliminating the best ones.
When I have more time I will try to explain linkage better.
G
Guest
i know your not saying dj short doesn't know how to pick out a good male?
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Grat3fulh3ad said:
I agree with Grat3... here.. I would only add that for $20.00 get urself a 30x magnifying glass..... You will be amazed at the resin content in the flower leaves/stalks areas of some males vs. others....I find that i'm looking for glandlular Stalked trichs... "trichs that have a stalk with a bulbish head on them"... also look for the density of the trichs... lastly.. but for me in second only to the trichome view with the 30x and thats SMELL. What is it like and how STONG is it....
When you have a male picked out.... try it on several different strains... to see how dominant the males features are in within each variety... I have found that with some males, certain strains take on a considerable amount of traits from the father... where as with other strains, its hard to see ANY of the males traits..
So just because u cross ur selected male to say a C99 and it works GREAT... it may not work out the same crossing it to something else..
While I agree with the PREMISE that suzycremecheese laid out in his post.. IMHO using to many males in a single project makes it nearly impossible to "track" the results of each breeding male... while using suzy method would CERTAINLY expose u to a broader spectrum of the gene pool thus enhancing the opportunity of finding something VERY SPECIAL.. If your goal is to "isolate" certain traits and enhance thier frequnecy through breeding back breeding and in breeding... it becomes IMPORTANT to know which male was responsible for passing which traits... especially if you plan to isolate the male to be used for futher refining of the genetic makeup..
Peace
BB
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suzycremecheese
Active member
kethup said:
I said nothing of the sort. DJs work speaks for itself. I'm just telling you how linkage works.
bergerbuddy said:
This isnt my method. This is the method used by professional plant breeders with dioecious plants. They came up with this before I was a gamete. Another thing professional plant breeders do is use a lot of plants and either track all the matings or allow bulk pollination.
The bottom line is when it comes to males you risk eliminating good males if you cull them based on linkage or other arbitrary criteria. The ultimate goal is the best female progeny not the best males... keep your eye on the prize.
southwind said:
This might be easier for me with some questions. Linkage. Where to start. The reason that one trait is associated with another. For example desirable buds and hollow or solid stems is because the traits are located close to each other on the same chromosome. The closer they are the more likely they are to be inherited together. Occasionally do to a crossover, thats whats happening in my avatar over there to the left, these traits seperate.
This is one of the ways that genomes are mapped.
I'm sure I've already said this. sorry about that.
If anyone cares, read these links on the subject and then maybe we can have a discussion on it. If you really like the topic do your own search bring back your own links and then we can have a really good discussion on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_linkage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_over
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recombinant_frequency
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moonymonkey
Active member
wa-tissshhhh.....goes the whip! thnx for the lesson sc,.. he he.....always learning something wen your aboard... thnx vry much!++...u go girl! !!...peace moon/
thnx vry much!++...u go girl! !!...peace moon/
Hmm, kinda odd info since what I've read of Rosenthal's and other books is that males generally grow taller and faster for, mainly to grow higher than the females and flower fast to release huge amounts of pollen in time to pollinate the females, I only toss runts but tend to keep all healthy males around, not much fiber plants out there anymore, could be like 30 years ago the situation was different but now I think most of those genes are bred out of the strains of today anyway...the most interesting thing about males is that you just cant tell how they are, smoke tests usually dont tell much unless the males are covered in resins...anyhoo, thats just my 2c.fjällhöga said:
When breeding male with female, traits which should be considered female traits, such as trichs, should not seen in the males that are to be used for breeding surely. These traits are sex determined, and therefore using males with female traits, must be a bad thing. As Suzy said, there are sections on the DNA chain, which do not share genetic info in the way that most other sections do. These are the areas that determine the sex of the plant. Characteristics that are to be found in females are supressed in male plants and vice versa. Reducing the suppression of female traits in male plants, can only, (I would have thought) also result in the reduction of the suppression of male characteristics in female plants.
im with you FJ
the smoke test is ok , but not really important on the males as a breeder wants that the male produces strong/potent/tasty offspring ....
thats the reason , why we here test our males on fem´s which were used for successful breeds and where we think to know what traits are passed on from the already known female ....
the smoke test is ok , but not really important on the males as a breeder wants that the male produces strong/potent/tasty offspring ....
thats the reason , why we here test our males on fem´s which were used for successful breeds and where we think to know what traits are passed on from the already known female ....
Well said bro, exactly my thoughts on this subject. :smile:
suzycremecheese
Active member
All good points FJ, gmt, and FJ but I want to comment on this one...
The only thing a resinous male guarantees is that some of his male offspring may be resinous. Afterall a resinous female does not guarantee resinous male progeny. Why should a resinous male increase the liklihood of resinous female progeny.
FJ said:
The only thing a resinous male guarantees is that some of his male offspring may be resinous. Afterall a resinous female does not guarantee resinous male progeny. Why should a resinous male increase the liklihood of resinous female progeny.
