What really makes smoke harsh?

[JackTheGrower]

Maryjohn is an odd ball like most of us are. He offers some input and like me he has had things wrong at times..

Banning is it really necessary?

I

 

[Crazy Composer]

All these were grown with ONLY ProMix for a medium... and fed EXCLUSIVELY with liquid organic nutes.

I grew this way, very successfully, for several years... It's called soiless organic. Not using the outdoor standard for organic soil, but fed by organically sourced nutrients. The very small, fine organic matter present in these organic liquid ferts seem to get into the soiless medium, kick starting an environment within the medium where fungi and bacteria take control and provide enough of an organic process to do the job.

All grown with organic liquid ferts... in straight ProMix... nothing else but water:

It works quite well, as you can see.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I don't doubt good grows but this is organic soil forum.. I try to be a bit of a police on that because I come here for commune with fellow organic soil people.

No disrespect to any garden. Just that Organic soil is way more than liquid feeding.

There are the aspects of time for example. Such as humus formation in soil.

My soil is 8 years or 9 years old.

That is Organic soil. It was made from raw materials rather than buying bulk from a bag. Handmade over time. A source of pride in my garden.

A dick measuring contest is a wrong tacit here Peace.

 

[MrFista]

Must restate my "never use kelp in flower" - I was answering a pm and said

Edited...

"OK. I might still use kelp in a tea in flower... Just not as a foliar or a feed. A bit before flip if I'm looking to get a bit more stretch if I have the room and want to assist the plants filling it. I have no problem with kelp in flower teas per se but teas are different, ACT's, where minimal nutes are taken up by microbes, not nute soups with manufacturers spec type amounts poured in.. I think kelp's awesome I just don't want to be adding it foliar either during flower as senescence is occuring and cytokinin messes with senescence. If you add kelp meal in your soil mix at start up the plant can take what it wants when it wants without forcing these hormones into a leaf system undergoing many metabolic processes tied to flowering that may be disrupted by this treatment. When we flip the lights we want flowers.

Along this vein kelp may assist in cropping by delaying early flowering in plants grown badly that are trying to bolt... This could help farmers with shitty soils. It might also help auto flower strains get bigger before they bud."

ends...

Rich soil, or soil too rich... "fuel too rich" ie: too much nutes. All sorts of problems occur and adding things just exacerbates them.

But how much is enough nutrition?
And how much is too much?

When looking for results again there seems to be a fine line. Diversity of microbial life will increase efficiency of metabolic pathways. Increased sources and amounts of nutrition should increase microbial life - but where's the cut off point?

I find less is always best. I like a little bit of lots of things to the same soil when remixing it over a long period of time. Except when it comes to compost - then less is not best, then I like MORE.

I want to switch to permanent no till beds though. Just time/resources.

 

[Crazy Composer]

I'm sorry you think of it that way, Jack. This is a place for knowledge, not pride. If you don't think you can get heavy yields of smooth bud from liquid organic ferts, I am available to help you know otherwise. And since a pile of great bud is a pile of great bud, it matters very little how it was done, as long as it's relatively healthy to consume. And... since people come here to learn how to grow piles of great bud, it stands to reason that someone who actually does that, might share his thoughts on the topic.

Now, if you might please find me the "soiless organic" forum, please link it here, and I will take the post there. Until that forum materializes, this forum is the most appropriate place to discuss using organic nutrients in a soiless, non hydroponic medium. My inclination is to help people grow at least as good as me, and hope they do better so that I can learn something from them.

As for years old soil... that's cool. You could also go outside and dig up some 4 billion year old soil, too... but that doesn't make it work right for cannabis. Using the same soil time after time is great, I really like that, but it's not exactly feasible for everyone to do... and with all the evidence in our faces, it's obvious that going through all the effort is simply not necessary at all. I have grown killer pot with many different methods... Including outdoors of course... which was 100% organic. Fine smoke is possible with all of these methods... piles of fine cannabis are possible with all these methods, some better than others, but mostly for ease-of-cultivation reasons.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Just as long as we communicate well.. I'm cool.

On kelp I switched to kelp meal after my favorite liquid kelp was kicked out of the organic cert program..

Kelp is something I still watch as it's good and bad for the kind of produce.

But no flush smooth great taste.. That's organics.

An organic soil is not a rich soil or a "too much" soil.. It's a place of decay and natural processes that form a "Soil." I top dress with rich materials and am experimenting with powdered coconut this feeding.
Last grow I tried apple sauce and banana chips.

I have such a soil. An Organic Soil

I am smoking seed shake since I grew seeds this last crop.. No real dry outside of just sitting and drying. At first it wasn't really nice since it's ground through a screen strainer... Twigs, leaves and all.
It's now smooth and very tasty and lives in a canning jar.
I smoke all the J's I want and it ashes perfectly like tobacco cigarettes do.
Smooth is a common occurrence from my experience.

So in closing I feel a living soil system will transfer energy from simple top dressing just fine and that smoothness isn't hurt by not stressing the plant.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I'm sorry you think of it that way, Jack. This is a place for knowledge, not pride. If you don't think you can get heavy yields of smooth bud from liquid organic ferts, I am available to help you know otherwise. And since a pile of great bud is a pile of great bud, it matters very little how it was done, as long as it's relatively healthy to consume. And... since people come here to learn how to grow piles of great bud, it stands to reason that someone who actually does that, might share his thoughts on the topic.

Now, if you might please find me the "soiless organic" forum, please link it here, and I will take the post there. Until that forum materializes, this forum is the most appropriate place to discuss using organic nutrients in a soiless, non hydroponic medium. My inclination is to help people grow at least as good as me, and hope they do better so that I can learn something from them.

As for years old soil... that's cool. You could also go outside and dig up some 4 billion year old soil, too... but that doesn't make it work right for cannabis. Using the same soil time after time is great, I really like that, but it's not exactly feasible for everyone to do... and with all the evidence in our faces, it's obvious that going through all the effort is simply not necessary at all. I have grown killer pot with many different methods... Including outdoors of course... which was 100% organic. Fine smoke is possible with all of these methods... piles of fine cannabis are possible with all these methods, some better than others, but mostly for ease-of-cultivation reasons.

Just be clear when teaching people things then.. Tell them liquid feeding in a medium isn't automatically organic soil.
Then all is right with the world to me.
Organic soil is the Earth in simple terms.. The soil food web and all..

Folks are confused about organic soil and even many folks here are so being clear is a sound help.

You know I don't know if there is a forum for that you say..

Maybe it's time to rethink the categories? I do know this forum is named correctly.

 

[Crazy Composer]

Let me argue that soil can, indeed be too rich. Just answer this question honestly... Would you rather smoke bud grown in lean organic soil, or in an organic soil with a dead squirrel, a pile of dog crap, and a substantial mound of fish guts in it? Sure, the squirrel, crap and fish guts are all organic... so by what I hear from organic purists, you cannot have too rich a soil... therefore you'd still prefer the bud grown with the dead squirrel? Or how about a less extreme example... Grow in pure Fox Farm Ocean Forest soil... All organic, no dead squirrels... but still, there's too much available salt from this soil, and the result is harsher smoke than I, or anyone else with high quality standards for our cannabis would accept. Funny thing is... most people who smoke bud from FFOF will think it's great... but only because they've not seen a brighter light with which to compare it to.

The squirrel is an extreme case, sure, but I don't hear enough organic growers accepting the fact that there IS such a thing as too rich a soil. If you visit the places where this plant is indigenous to, I think you might find that the soils are very lean, very UN-rich. And we are not growing tomatoes here, we're growing something that is to be dried and smoked. Therefore it is of the UTMOST importance to make sure the soil is as lean as possible, while still pulling off a weighty crop. A lean soil will contribute much less in the way of salts to the plant. Salts are fire retardants, not ideal for smooth, clean smoke. Overly rich soils (which release high amounts of ionically available salts), will most assuredly yield plants with more salts on board than you'll get from leaner soils. I see no possible way to think otherwise. Still, I see people harvesting plants in rich organic soils, and these people swear it's smooth. But in my experience, a well-fed plant has not even once... yielded better pot than a yellowing plant in lean soil. I must also point out that... I am handed bud from proud growers all the time, and the honest truth is... I usually give the bud away to someone else who might think highly of it. Point being... what one man calls smooth smoke, may be harsh to someone who is used to something smoother. And the grower may, in fact, be growing the smoothest smoke he's ever smoked... this doesn't mean it's as smooth as it can be. The best pot in one town, can be terrible when compared to the best pot in another town, but the smokers in the first town are happy as clams, knowing they are smoking the best in town.

It's all relative.

 

[JackTheGrower]

That's ridiculously silly speak.

Bye,

 

[Crazy Composer]

That's ridiculously silly speak.

Bye,

Can you explain why this is "silly speak"? Why not be friendly and just talk shop? Why do people get frazzled by hearty debate? Disappointing, really.

 

[thc43]

growing indoors under lights is hardly organic so to me its always going a matter of a compromise, you use what suits you in current grow.

CC as usual lovely plants, for years you've shared what you know and practice what you spreak.. although organic isnt my thing growing in coco is not that far off.

JAcktheGrower,
"Just be clear when teaching people things then.. Tell them liquid feeding in a medium isn't automatically organic so"

That has me a little confused, liquid could be anything from a chem hydro fert to certified organic products or even plain water that wets the soil enabling plants to take up the nutrients that have been broken down from organic matter.

its your argument boys so ill leave you too it.. GRowing PURE organic just aint for me. just wanted to touch base and in courage CC to keep the porn flowing....

 

[Microbeman]

CC; (Apparently) It may be a good thing for you to learn how plants are 'actually' fed organically before you pretend to teach. You have my appologies in advance if I have somehow missed this knowledge base in your epistles.

 

[jaykush]

so how good did the smoke grown with the dead squirrel and dog crap taste? i bet it was smooth as air compared to the FFOF lol.

remember there are a million ways to grow using organic fertilizers/materials. what may be perfect for one person. may be the complete opposite of what another person needs. there is no wrong way really, its just a matter of dialing in your materials to your plants needs, trial and error and experience. that's how you get the best smoke.

as well as GENETICS play the superior role in smoke quality!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!

 

[Crazy Composer]

Microbeman, You are knowledgeable about organics, sure, but you will simply not let yourself know a few things. Namely, that organic soil will release nutrient WITHOUT a plant asking for it. Please, please, please prove this is wrong. I understand what you guys have been telling people about bacteria, fungi, amoeba, etc, etc, etc... this is old hat information... What makes no sense at all is when you say that organic soil can't be too rich because a plant needs to be present in order to release the salts from the organic matter. If you can actually prove that to be true across the board, you will have revolutionized the growing industry single handedly. Sure, plants work with the microherd to release nutrients in an even manner, but this is NOT the only time salts are released in ionic form, into the medium. Simply untrue, a misunderstanding that has been spread through the growing community, recently, and is not helping people understand what's really going on in their soil, or grow cannabis of the finest order.

When you talk with me, you have to understand that you're talking with someone who's goal is to find ways to grow the finest, very finest quality of cannabis, and lots of it, with as easy a method as possible. I know how to do this, and have done it for years. I'm not just talking myself up, either. My herb has lived up to, and changed the standards of many growers who have smoked it. The reason is... I know how this plant does what it does, and how to affect the results I'm after. The proof is in the pudding. To all growers looking for advice from someone, ALWAYS check the person's picture gallery and Albums for evidence that what he/she says actually works for him... And if, like myself, there is a long history of success, with many different styles of growing, you can be pretty well assured that that person is not talking just to be heard.

I am very, very confident in this topic, and I don't care if I come off that way. I have walked the walk, I've made terrible mistakes, and fixed them, learned what does and what does not work by first-hand experience, trial and error, not from books. I can visit a plant in pitch black darkness and tell you if it's eating well, if it's experiencing pH fluctuation, if the pH is acidic or alkaline, if there's too much nitrogen available, etc. This is not cockiness, this is confidence due to experience. I've had seedlings and/or clones going at all times for about 10 straight years non-stop... at the same time I've had crops in beer cups, vegging at all times for about 10 straight years non-stop... at the same time I've had plants in 3 gallon pots vegging at all times for about 10 years straight... at the same time I have had plants at two or three different stages of flower, going all at once, for about 10 straight years. At just about any time in my life, day or night, over the last 10 years, I could go and see seedlings, clones, young veggers, older veggers, early flowerers, mid flowerers, late flowerers... any time I went to the garden. This stuff is my life. Look at my pictures if you want to know whether or not I have enough experience to be confident when I talk on this subject.

Do you know how I got to this level of understanding about this plant? I admit when I'm wrong, so I can own the right information. I notice that many people remain stagnant in their knowledge because they simply don't have it in them to admit when they're wrong about something. This is especially true about many of the old timer organic guys, not all, but many that I have run across over the years. I've smoked the most terrible crap from old hippies who grow organically and will NEVER listen to anyone telling them there's a better way. I think some of those people might be on these boards come to think of it.

That being said, and I'm sure the more delicate sensitivities being rubbed raw... The main theoretical point is... Organic soils, just because they're organic, doesn't mean you'll get good smoke. Why? Because some organic soils are simply delivering more nutrient to the plant than is optimal for the purposes of clean burning, tasty smoke. But it's hard to debate with someone if what I call garbage, they call great smoke... if that's the case, we can never come to an agreement. And yes, I DO end up coming to the conclusion that when someone harvests dark green plants with too much salt in them, and they call it great smoke, that they simply do not know just how good it can get. Experience tells me that plants in overly rich soils at harvest time, will simply NOT smoke as well as plants harvested from leaner soils.

But maybe I'm wrong... maybe the thousands and thousands of plants I've cared for, diligently, over the years have lead me to a misunderstanding? But one thing is certain... rich organic soils at harvest time have ALWAYS equaled less than perfect smoke. ALWAYS. Not as bad as it gets, but not as good, either.

***(Imagine if you will, that I am saying all this to you in person, with a twinkle in my eye... I'm not pissed, nor have I ever been pissed while typing this. This is how I talk with my own friends, and they appreciate honest debate. What I'm trying to do here is help growers who need good info, get to the next level... that's all).

 

[MrFista]

CC - you make some good points. It is a PITA to reclassify organics into many sections we'd need - an organic hydro forum, an aquaponic forum - an organic aquaponic forum, soilless organic, soil organic, vegan organic....

Let's just play nice, proof is proof, the bottles and methods you use work well.

It's not my cup of tea, but that's my choice, not you twisting my arm and telling me so.

Now - on that dead dog. I have aussie friends who bury kangaroos then put weed on top the next season. A family member put a plant on top of a buried sheep (12 months later). The result was a HUGE 3 1/2 lb's of buds on one plant plant. The pelt retains water and the carcass is of course nutes, lots of nutes. This weed was as good as anything on the market then, it was better, smoother.

It's not so much how much material is in the soil, it is the stage of decomposition it is in. There's stable organic matter, then there's hot materials yet to break down. Those hot materials are what we need to minimise.

 

[Crazy Composer]

I agree with that Mr Fista... The degree of decomposition. In the end, though, it's simply a matter of how much salt is being released vs. how much the plant actually needs to do what it does. Any time there are more salts than the plant needs, you will reduce the smoking quality of the herb. I'd love to hear people simply admit that so people are not confused. We are ALMOST on the same exact page, but the small details are where the large results come from.

 

[Trichgnomes]

Just be clear when teaching people things then.. Tell them liquid feeding in a medium isn't automatically organic soil.
Then all is right with the world to me.
Organic soil is the Earth in simple terms.. The soil food web and all..

Folks are confused about organic soil and even many folks here are so being clear is a sound help.

You know I don't know if there is a forum for that you say..

Maybe it's time to rethink the categories? I do know this forum is named correctly.

Bump!

I have to agree with Jack on this one. I believe this was stated by someone in another thread, but I would like to second that one is better off using synthetic chemical nutes than these so-called "organic nutrients."

Crazy Composter- No disrespect, but this is not a yield comparison thread, so forgive me if I am a little slow on the uptake, but how is the proof in the pudding in this case? Yes those pictures are nice, but what relevance do they have? I cannot taste or smell them, so I would really like to understand how this proves anything.

Microbeman, You are knowledgeable about organics, sure, but you will simply not let yourself know a few things. Namely, that organic soil will release nutrient WITHOUT a plant asking for it. Please, please, please prove this is wrong. I understand what you guys have been telling people about bacteria, fungi, amoeba, etc, etc, etc... this is old hat information... .

Have you ever grown from the Soil Foodweb approach, utilizing the nature of nutrient cycling? If 'bacteria, fungi, amoeba, etc. are old hat info,' what is the new info? Liquid food apparently. The info may be old hat to you (whatever that means), but to a lot of us, they are who we trust our medicine with. The only organisms that can truly feed a plant exactly how it wants to be fed, are microbes. No offense to your years of experience, which to me do not mean anything other than that you have accepted one style of growing and got good at it. Living in the rhizosphere or phyllosphere (sp?), IMO, gives one the ability to be much more in tune with a plants needs (forgive me if this is breaching the realm of anthropomorphism).

Sorry for the rant, I guess I should probably get back to the thread:

I believe the biggest factor in what makes smoke harsh--other than some things that have already been mentioned, like a quick dry or high leaf/calyx ratio-- is the subjectivity of one's palate.

 

[Crazy Composer]

I have grown in any way you can probably think of. From hydro tables, buckets, organic hydro, synthetic hydro, rockwool, hydroton, you name it... and as for organic methods, I've grown in beds with styles similar to what you see from MicrobeMan, in soiless organic with liquid nutes, in soiless with synthetic nutes, in rich organic soils fed with liquid organic nutes, with molasses. I have grown right through the entire spectrum of methods. I have not settled for any one style at all. If you look through my pictures, you will be looking at dozens of different techniques, very different from eachother.

Right now, and for the last year or so, I have been working with lean organic soils fed ONLY with dry guano powder as a top-dressing. The only thing besides that I add is... water. NO LIQUID FERTS EXIST IN MY GARDEN. I grow organically, utilizing the soil foodweb. The point here is whether or not organic soils can provide too much salt at harvest time, leading to less than perfect smoke. The answer is YES!!! Unequivocally... yes.

 

[VerdantGreen]

......The only organisms that can truly feed a plant exactly how it wants to be fed, are microbes......

in this case how is it possible to burn/overfeed your plants using organic amendments such as alfalfa meal etc?
If everything is controlled between plant and microbes then how can this happen?

whilst the synergy between plants and microbes is clearly important , i feel that we the grower also have a large influence on how the plant feeds by what we put in the soil or water, and when.

V.

 

[Crazy Composer]

in this case how is it possible to burn/overfeed your plants using organic amendments such as alfalfa meal etc?
If everything is controlled between plant and microbes then how can this happen?

whilst the synergy between plants and microbes is clearly important , i feel that we the grower also have a large influence on how the plant feeds by what we put in the soil or water, and when.

V.

Finally, someone who understands this and is willing to say it. There are so many variables that determine how the smoke turns out, but one thing is absolutely certain, you can get just as crappy a quality from pure organics as you can from unflushed synthetic weed. It comes down to the amount of salt in the plant at the time of harvest.

Let me show you a garden grown in pure organics (composted chicken and cow manure) that looked phenominal, but smoked terribly...




And this is one of HUNDREDS of examples I have experienced to this end. I'm not speaking here without experience.