What is the chemical explanation for the Sativa/Indica dichtomy?

[gloryoskie]

Nothing is as it was, ever.

I am finding surprise that more folks haven't joined the discussion.

My limited experience has shown much similarity in indica or sativa stock at 90 days+ cure.

Almost any quality ripened stock smokes uplifting up to a 21 day cure, in my opinion.
Growers who have noticed a distinct difference between the two, after a 90 day cure, please chime in.

Set and setting. I agree.

 

[de145]

Ok we can argue terminology until the cows come home but there is undoubtedly and indisputably variations in the effect of various strains. Some are almost stupifyingly narcotic and some are intensely the opposite.

I like the Beta Myrcene theory, also it's the only post that contributes to the original question which I am also very interested in.

I'd like to see a comprehensive chemical analysis of cannabis samples of well known and very different in effect strains just to see what the actual chemical difference is. Obviously THC is only a part of the effect and obviously not a large one at that.

 

[de145]

don't forget set and setting, which play a huge role

What role?

I have a Godbud that is a heavy narcotic stone and a Super Silver Haze which is a very energetic and uplifting stone. They are worlds apart and it doesn't matter who smokes them or under what circumstances the unique effects of each are recognized universally.

In no case under any circumstances with any people have I heard someone say "this Super Silver Haze makes me want to go to sleep or just sit here drooling" or people smoking Godbud exclaim "Let's go do something instead of just sitting around like this".

Clearly there is an objective reaction going on that is reproducible and not limited to one person.

 

[shmalphy]

It is the taxonomy that is being disputed not the varying effects of different strains. SSH is well known for it's uplifting high, but that is not something that is characteristic of all sativas, so therefore we cannot attribute this effect to a difference in species, but a variation of chemical compounds called terpenes that have synergistic effects with cannabinoids.

 

[de145]

Yes the taxonomy is being disputed but that doesn't make the original question in-valid, I think it's an excellent and important question that I've thought about before as well.

I don't know what's possible from a lab analysis point of view but if t.v. show science has taught me anything it's that I can get a chart with a nice graph line showing spikes of every chemical compound in the samples if the right people do the testing.

Seriously though I hear about big dispensaries like Harbourside in California claiming they want to do all sorts of good things, they have the money, access to the labs etc, why don't they answer all these basic questions we've all had for so long?

Do a weekly webcast like Mythbusters and anyone can ask questions and the best ones get checked out.

I think a good lab and the right people with the right questions could resolve about half the ongoing discussion threads in existence online.

 

[Duplicate]

I was afraid this might be a dumb question

Totally man, taxonomy and biology are definitely everyday common knowledge. Thanks for asking, I enjoyed this thread.

Broccoli, brussels sprouts, kohlrabi, cauliflower, and kale are all the same species.

I did not know that, thanks.

 

[shmalphy]

http://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Taming-THC-Russo.pdfhttp://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Taming-THC-Russo.pdf

The answer to the original question is phytocannabinoid-terpenoid entourage effects. The only debate that lingers in this thread is whether or not "indica" is a different breed, or mutation of the same species.

 

[shmalphy]

double post

 

[KiefSweat]

Yes the taxonomy is being disputed but that doesn't make the original question in-valid, I think it's an excellent and important question that I've thought about before as well.

I don't know what's possible from a lab analysis point of view but if t.v. show science has taught me anything it's that I can get a chart with a nice graph line showing spikes of every chemical compound in the samples if the right people do the testing.

Seriously though I hear about big dispensaries like Harbourside in California claiming they want to do all sorts of good things, they have the money, access to the labs etc, why don't they answer all these basic questions we've all had for so long?

Do a weekly webcast like Mythbusters and anyone can ask questions and the best ones get checked out.

I think a good lab and the right people with the right questions could resolve about half the ongoing discussion threads in existence online.

quick question, how much would you pay for that info?

 

[Duplicate]

^ Well, like, it should be free, man!

 

[KiefSweat]

I'll give you the info for free if you buy my seeds for $20 each. Lol

 

[shmalphy]

"Millions saw the apple fall, but Newton was the one who asked why."
Bernard Baruch

 

[G.O. Joe]

http://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Taming-THC-Russo.pdf

The answer to the original question is phytocannabinoid-terpenoid entourage effects. The only debate that lingers in this thread is whether or not "indica" is a different breed, or mutation of the same species.

It should be noted that Russo doesn't say anything about anything, do anything at all, much less prove anything. Perhaps he should start with doing something, like measuring nanograms per bong hit of modern strains for whatever terpenes he thinks are responsible. It would be embarrassing to link some compound to something (he does not do this) only to find it is barely present in samples.

Just because a few people managed to get quoted at some point as saying there is more than one species of Cannabis, doesn't make it so.

 

[Ruosk]

Good thread, thanks for everybody contributing scientific information and viewpoint. I would like to see analysis of cannabinoid / terpenoid profiles of strains that can be considered defining or expressive of what we are used to calling sativa and indica - especially landraces from africa and south-america, afghanica indicas and so on, maybe followed by double blinds on psychoactive effects of these certain specimens. If enough data is gathered, some educated guesses could be made on expression of certain active compunds, though this would still be far from anything conclusive.

The sativa and indica thing propably originated in way described in this thread - electric s-a sativas being consumed and only afterwards narcotic afghanica 'indicas' being introduced to public. And our speak is fueled further by commercial interest - if you buy sativa seeds, you expect the high to be UP, and vica versa with Indicas. That being said, in common speak, this vocabulary is in my opinion very useful, and no matter how you feel about it, it's so widespread it's not going to go away, even if it is taxonomically wrong.

 

[VerdantGreen]

- It doesn't. This is a common misconception in cannabis, brought about by lack of knowledge regarding the phytochemical nature of the plant and varying populations of it, ecotypes and selection over time, etc.



- Cannabis is Cannabis sativa. Proposed species beyond sativa have been rejected for many various reasons.

- Sativas don't make you "up", and "indicas" don't make you "down/couchlocked", it's all about the phytochemical makeup of the individual plant and plant population that individual came from as a whole that you are imbibing, and somewhat your personal state of being at the time, that matters.

- If "sativas" just made you "up", and "indicas" "down", there wouldn't be all this hoopla about other phytochemicals within cannabis beyond a few cannabinoids. It isn't as simple as "up" and "down", "sativa/indica" as the editors of high times want to make it to be, and has nothing to do really with the THC/CBD ratio, a very misunderstood topic.

- Terpenoids have various physiological mechanisms via which they can modulate the effects of THC and other cannabinoids.

- Cannabis bred for fiber content can be high in THC (and can possess broad leaves). The general goal of hemp breeders is to select out plants containing THC and select plants for fiber.

- A "sativa sativa"... "Sativa indica"... "Indica indica"... Most people can't even comprehend how silly and ridiculous that actually sounds, about as bad as seed sellers/coffeeshops/dispensaries telling customers plants are 30%indica/70%sativa hybrids, 50%/50% sativa-indica hybrids, or 100%indica/100%sativa, and other pseudoscience regarding genetics

good post cannabologist, but (taking the layman's classification that most people understand) wouldnt you agree, if you had to make a generalisation, that sativas tend to have a cerebral 'up' high and indica/broadleaf tend to have more of a muscle relaxant 'couchy or down' effect?
sure there are many other facets to the effects of cannabis, but that has been my general experience of 20 or more years of growing/smoking.

VG

 

[shmalphy]

In my experience, hazes are lemony, and kushs are peppery, and when you cross the 2, the lemon smelling pheno will have a haze high, and the kush smelling phenos will have a kush high. Also, you can get a pretty good idea of how strong the effect of a strain is by the smell, indicating to me that terpenes play a big part in the high, so I agree with Russo's expaination. YMMV.

 

[KiefSweat]

myrcene may be what people have been attributing the effects of cbd to for all these years.
just tested some buds (in multiple ways) that thought would have had a lot more cbd in them then they actually do.

Next step is to get terpene testing done and start pedigree-ing some plants so to speak.
But I'll put 50cents of my bet that the strain I'm working with now will have high levels of myrcene in it or similar compounds from my basic understanding of how terpenes work.

 

[shmalphy]

where exactly does one get terpene testing done?

 

[KiefSweat]

labs in cali are doing it.
Its been worked on elsewhere.

and you can find other labs that would test botaincails for that type of info (its not cheap) the addition of thc might be an issue in some areas.

 

[Han Grolo]

- I am not opposed to the idea that cannabis could be a ring species, there just isn't any evidence for it. A cannabis "hybrid" population is not a "true" hybrid species, where a hybrid speciation event occurs forming a new species that cannot breed with either parent, it is the result of 2 true breeding inbred populations (ie. populations that will be homozygous for those traits) breeding, the resultant F1 population will be heteozygous (but still readily able to breed with either parent).

(Rubbing eyes) Nice post Cannabol.

I think there is a simple comparison we can make.

Broccoli, brussels sprouts, kohlrabi, cauliflower, and kale are all the same species.

How different are they from each other, compared to cannabis varieties?

The rough summary Mad, is If two varieties can interbreed and produce viable offspring, then they belong to the same species.