what do ya growas think about Selfing?

[Guest]

a bit of info I came across courtesy of JackStraw over at CW.........

How close the offspring are to the parent will really depend on the parent. If the clone that is selfed is extremely homozygous for the desired traits, then the chances are probably good that you will get some offspring very close to the parent. However this is not the case with most modern "strains" and I would not expect selfind to produce consistent results. I view it more like an f2 of an f1 cross, you are going to see some variation in it, and most notably you will see some deleterious recessives brought out ( albino g13s for instance).

In simple terms: the stability of the sefled seeds will depend on the stability of the clone you self, and most modern clones are probably not stable.

CBF

 

[King]

Cannabis is the only annual that I'm aware of that has male and female plants(dioecious).All other annuals have both sexes in the same plant(a-sexual) and they pollenate themselves.

Okay this seems strange to me. So how does cannabis have the ability to pollenate itself if it's dioecious? And so what is a hermie? XX? XY? XXY?


Did some searching:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioecious
Seems cannabis would fall into the following category
Trioecious (or subdioecious) - male, female, and hermaphrodite plants are all in the same population.

Annuals are a one shot deal,it's entire lifecycle occurs in a single season.Therefore,annuals put a lot of effort into reproducing.If they did not evolve this way they would not have survived with such a short lifespan.
I believe that all Cannabis is hermaphroditic and it is a ressesive trait in most Cannabis although some hardcore landrace Sativas such as Thai are rather prone to it.
As Freakazoid pointed out,this is a built in survival mechanism.It is a last ditch effort by the plant to reproduce under adverse or stressfull situations.
If you take a female plant(XX) and repress the female hormones with a chemical,there is no reason for the plant to become male,rather it should stay in a constant state of veg creating no pistils.

You're correct. It doesn't in fact become a male. It flowers male producing XX pollen.

If you deprived a young girl of estrogen she would not turn male,but she would not develope breasts or menstrate normally either.

We're not cannabis, cannabis is not human. Comparisons between the two will be accurate as soon as I grow roots and start absorbing nutes, and can use light as energy.

More likely is that the stress of the chemical application that causes the plant to become a hermaphrodite.This can also be done with gibberelic acid and perhaps a whole host of other chemicals that have yet to be found.
If it was truly possible to reverse the actual sex of a plant then you wouldn't see people cutting down males because someone would have figured out how to turn them into females by now if it were as simple as hormone application.

I'm sure this is being experimented with somewhere. It's mentioned in the big thread at CW covering reversing. I believe it's actually Lucifer who mentions this. Imagine what something like this could do for male selection. I'm sure people said similar things prior to female sex reversal.


The original reason people used the selfing in Cannabis was to create all female seeds.Hermie pollen from a "XX" plant will create seeds that only have "XX" chromosomes,and therefore should all be female.But as I said,I think all Cannabis has a ressesive hermie trait and theres no way to tell if you unlock that trait if it will only last that generation or carry over to the seeds.

Taken from the sight I linked to above, kind of interesting:
It is thought that flowering plants evolved from a common hermaphrodite ancestor, and that dioecy evolved from hermaphroditism. Hermaphroditism is very common in flowering plants—about 70% are hermaphroditic, while only about 5% are dioecious and 7% are monoecious. About 7% of species exhibit gynodioecy or androdioecy, while 10% contain both unisexual and bisexual flowers (Molner, 2004).

JLP

Maybe a more accurate term would be "female flowering reversal" instead of "female sex reversal"

 

[Freakazoid44]

Maybe a more accurate term would be "female flowering reversal" instead of "female sex reversal"

Bingo! Good post, man...

 

[tokinjoe]

My original intent for my summer grow this year was to go with Fem seeds but after posting on it, and subsequently reading threads such as this, I'm going with clones across the board, the exception being BBxNL. Ima grow those for the hell of it.

 

[Rgd]

S1 selfing

"there is still a chance of getting a plant the same as the original"

Using sts?

Very very much so!


I would say if you have the real clone, go for it. [duh]

Though people have found s1's they claim are better than the real deal clone.

Why?

Because some real deal clone onlys are polyhybrids and have other
little gems in there .

If not, you should get a darn good copy of the original most every time.

I am not talking about RM's s1's i have no idea how he does what or whether they are s1's

But the s1's i have tried are something else!

 

[suzycremecheese]

THere is still the possibility of variation when you self a plant.

Think of it this way. There are two allele possibilities for every gene in the plant. If the original plant is homozygous at a gene then the selfed progeny will be identical to the parent at that gene. However if the original is heterozygous you have 3 possibilities. Homozygous of one allele or the other and heterozygous. When you take into account epistasis, and multigenic traits this can make the selfed progeny different than the parent. That being said if you grow out enough progeny you should see something similar to the parent.

As far as the concerns about selfing... the biggest problem is that if this method is relyed upon to heavily a great deal of diversity can be lost. This is however, just one more tool in the responsible plant breeders tool box.

 

[Raco]

Good info suzycremecheese
And about commercial s1´s:
I recently learnt that one selected cutting from a commercial line bred by a good friend of mine was reversed,and it´s being sold by one of those newest seed banks(that sell feminized only) UNDER ANOTHER NAME!!
It´s a shame...that pisses me off to the max.

 

[Rgd]

"As far as the concerns about selfing... the biggest problem is that if this method is relyed upon to heavily a great deal of diversity can be lost. This is however, just one more tool in the plant breeders tool box."

Yes i agree.
Good reply.

 

[muddy waters]

i crossed a landrace sativa from south america with nirvana blue mystic and accidentally selfed one of the 2 females i got. i grew 4 S1s and all were female, 1 was killed by a friend's cat before flower, 2 were grown by another friend outdoors, and 1 is being grown by me in a cab right now. the 3 which got to the flowering stage all displayed branching and flower structure similar to the 2 original female F1s as well and all had the blueberry smell. the 1 S1 that was chopped already and smoked has a similar taste and effect to the originals as well.

all in all i'm quite pleased with my first selfing experiment. i am taking the last S1 flowering now and pollinatng with a sativa-dom male of mysterious origin. i'm hoping the blueberry smell will continue dominant.