what do ya growas think about Selfing?

[JohnBudd]

I am learning more everyday, thanks for setting me straight on that.
I assumed that hermi's were an issue in stock and parentage. I know shocking,light leaks and various other things make hermi's appear, but is that not due to a flaw in its past genetics?
I have made many mistakes over the years with growing, and hermi's only appeared on certian strains, at certian times(usually near finish)....it seemed my stabile strains would not hermi, but crazy hybrids did from time to time.
I obviously need to do some more reading before I chime in here again, but thanks for getting the brain ticking here.....actually saw some "silver colidial?" at the health food store.....is this the same stuff??? 30bux for 4 oz?
This is a great place......I can be way off base, stick my foot in my mouth, wrong assumptions, set straight, and still feel good about the whole thing........right on!

 

[Guest]

giantmanbags, you wont get a filial generation from a self. mendals theroy does not apply in a self to the best of my knowledge. I do believe you will see variation from any plant you self. it would make sense that a IBL would have a tighter group.

selfin is not a short cut to filial generations. I think it is a tool to expose plants you wouldnt normally see in a population.

JB, im not settin ya straight bro, the extinction factor is somethin I read, ive not proven it just up for disscussion, someone else might have another take on that theroy.

hermaphrodites are a natural occurance, all strains have the gene. hermaphodite free advertisin is just plain bunk. no such thing. some strains maybe predisposed to exhibit that trait with minimal stress, were others are more resistant to it.

coloidal silver is for human consuptuion, more of a shamans elixer the shit they use to self plants you dont even want to get on your skin. very dangerous stuff.

JB when ever a thought springs to mind, speak up. ideas are what makes the world go round, and creates lively discussion. intended here

CBF

 

[Capt. Crip]

CBF

CBF

Heres another thought to ponder......What about collecting pollen from my indica dominant female and instead of pollinating herself I used it to pollinate a "female" Afghani?Do you think the variation would show under this circumstance.

This would in effect produce an F1 hybrid even though pollen was collected from a female.Where selfing the Blueberry is "Suppossed" to be an IBL cross,although your results would indicate otherwise.

The results you have gotten reminds me most of what I expect from the F2 generation.Were all the females resinous in the fem BB sat. ?

Just some more things to think about......
I guess the only way to get answers to these questions is to do the crosses and grow them out.
Take care all..............................CC

GiantMB,An IBL and an F1 clone are completely different beast.The IBL is a line that has been bred into itself for many gernerations to stabilize .
An F1 hybrid is the result of crossing 2 of these IBL's.The F1 is usually more vigorous and potent than both parents and posesses the so-called Hybrid vigor,which will cause these plants to outgrow most plants in the garden.
...........................................Take care

 

[Guest]

Heres another thought to ponder......What about collecting pollen from my indica dominant female and instead of pollinating herself I used it to pollinate a "female" Afghani?Do you think the variation would show under this circumstance.

capt, i wouldnt have a clue. Im no where near that point, if i ever go there. im just growin. if I ever do any breedin i dont think it will be from selfed seed till more is known about what happens down the line. never know though.

This would in effect produce an F1 hybrid even though pollen was collected from a female.Where selfing the Blueberry is "Suppossed" to be an IBL cross,although your results would indicate otherwise.

can ya call a cross with fem pollen a F1? a sibX from fem seed where a male was found(JLP) what do I call it? im usin SF1 first selfed sibX?????????LOL

F1, as ya know is the first filial generation, filial is between brothers and sisters...........dont know where im goin with this ya fugged me up with that one.

The results you have gotten reminds me most of what I expect from the F2 generation.Were all the females resinous in the fem BB sat. ?

usin the SBC im growin for example(from S2 seed)done with sensa soak, might not be considered femminized seed, the S2 plants were varied like a F2 pop, and the sibX plants again have variation. one male and one female used in the sibX. you would think they would be much tighter group, like 2 or 3 maybe, but like I said before theres 5 at least. Ill look real close at um when they get older and see if they come together.


CBF

 

[skunkafryed]

I've followed the developments over the last couple years and I have grown selfed seeds.The only true way to re-produce an elite clone is to clone it,not self it.
JLP

Thats exactly my take on this subject. I chimed in on a blackberry test grow thread and had my head nearly chopped off for saying such things . My point was that the blackberry from seed is NOT the real blackberry. The only true blackberry is from clone. Same thing with the og kush and bubba kush. If you cant get it from clone from a reputable source then you cant get it. Plain and simple. Same with the ECSD, Trainwreck, Purps, Trinity... and numerous others. Otherwise grow good genetics from REPUTABLE breeders.

 

[skunkafryed]

F1 seed stock, picking stout/stinky males, and frosty/healthy females is the only way............."It's not nice to fool with MotherNature"........lightning sounds ect.....you get the point.

Spot on imo.

 

[truecannabliss]

Am i right in thinking that although s1 will give variation,there is still a chance of getting a plant the same as the original, if so i think it is well worth getting s1 in order to find a mother with the desired characteristics so that she can be cloned senseless.

 

[Freakazoid44]

Yeah, but

Yeah, but

hey JB, nice you dropped in. selfin is actually a natural occurrance in pot. as all have seen, plants(some more than others) hermie from many causes. In nature, a plant that does not get pollinated, or stressed by animals, weather, bugs, whatever stresses the plant, causes what is called a extinction factor, that kicks in and the plant will self/hermie to continue another generation.

just a idea i have read else where.

CBF

Yes, that's natural, and that survival ability would be passed along genetically. For what we all want, we don't want that hemaphroditism to be passed along, so we're trying to create a selfed plant by stressing in a way that will also not pass along hemaphroditism. The chemicals used to unnaturally stress the plant to produce non-hermie female seeds (also unnatural) makes it quite distinct from any naturally ocurring process, I'd think.

 

[Guest]

Yes, that's natural, and that survival ability would be passed along genetically. For what we all want, we don't want that hemaphroditism to be passed along, so we're trying to create a selfed plant by stressing in a way that will also not pass along hemaphroditism. The chemicals used to unnaturally stress the plant to produce non-hermie female seeds (also unnatural) makes it quite distinct from any naturally ocurring process, I'd think.

Interestin point, human selfin of the plant with what ever chem chosen induces the plant to hermie. i dont know what actually takes place once the chemical is applied, but either way the plant is a hermaphrodite. whether chemicals or nature. the chemical just induces the plant to hermie. just as mother nature would.

as for passin on the hermaphrodite tendencies, I believe that begins with the plant that was used in the process. its been reported many times of selfed seed with a abundance of hermaphrodies in the population. where as other S1s from breeders do just fine. also one thing to keep in mind is that most hermies are a result of growin enviorments. to many times i look at growers pics and they suffer from heat stress. how many growers have OPs that are 85F or more. cripes i seen a grower not to long ago that had a heatin pad under his flowerin plant in a 80f plus OP, LOL.

Truecannabliss.......in my exp findin the original clone in the selfed seed is prolly as good as findin the elite clone from regular seed. but that is just my assumption. anything could happen. you would think that a selfed clone should produce at least 1 or 2 very close plants. I dont believe they do.

CBF

 

[King]

Jesh. What experience CBF? The three seeds you grew from Reeferman? Sorry but that's hardly experience IMO. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm an expert or anything to that nature. I wish Lucifer would pop in and give his thoughts on the subject. I bet they've grown quite a few of the feminised Blueberry Sativa that you bought, and they continue to self, imagine that. And I gotta ask how exactly you would have even have known what the Blueberry Sativa clone grows like to compare your selfed seeds to? Did you get a cut of that from Reeferman to grow along side those beans?

When you use Silver Nitrate and Sodium Thiosulfate, what happens is the female flowering hormone is suppressed within the plant. IT IS NOT A HERMIE. Understand? A hermie is a male & female. This is not the case here. As long as we keep sprayin the plant it is only a male and will NEVER be female. No female hormone within the plant, no female.

There's two great threads at cannabisworld covering this topic.

Selfed seeds are gettin a bad rep here, and this shouldn't be the case until more selfing/growing is done. This could very well be the future of cannabis. If I'm wrong I'll come back and eat my words, I have no problem with that. I just don't think it should be put down like it is without it being really understood and tested more.

 

[HerbWeedman]

Well excepting the questioning of experience (it isn't necessary on such a fresh method/subject) and skunk bringing his problems here (that isn't the way it was skunk and you know it) this thread has given me great reading, a new perspective on selfing (I'm still not Sold on it) and some information that was not known to Herb. Great thread CBF. This is the kind of discussion that is good for the site.

 

[Guest]

Jesh. What experience CBF? The three seeds you grew from Reeferman? Sorry but that's hardly experience IMO. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm an expert or anything to that nature. I wish Lucifer would pop in and give his thoughts on the subject. I bet they've grown quite a few of the feminised Blueberry Sativa that you bought, and they continue to self, imagine that. And I gotta ask how exactly you would have even have known what the Blueberry Sativa clone grows like to compare your selfed seeds to? Did you get a cut of that from Reeferman to grow along side those beans?

hey king, Ive grown RMs S1s, a purp kush S1 and the SBC S2. I dont claim to be a expert in anyway, just wanna talk about selfed plants. what i say is what I see. im not dissin anybodys gear here. did i say RMs gear was crap?

I only thing I have to compare to is pics from RM. like I said the third pheno of the BBsativa I believe was close to the clone in appearance.

When you use Silver Nitrate and Sodium Thiosulfate, what happens is the female flowering hormone is suppressed within the plant. IT IS NOT A HERMIE. Understand? A hermie is a male & female. This is not the case here. As long as we keep sprayin the plant it is only a male and will NEVER be female. No female hormone within the plant, no female.

thank you that sheads a diff light as to a selfed plant bein a hermie.

Selfed seeds are gettin a bad rep here, and this shouldn't be the case until more selfing/growing is done. This could very well be the future of cannabis. If I'm wrong I'll come back and eat my words, I have no problem with that. I just don't think it should be put down like it is without it being really understood and tested more.

im not readin where selfed seed is gettin a bad rep? were just swappin IDEAS, not documented research. just enjoyin each others comments and investigatin what is happenin when selfed beans are grown out. we are tryin to understand, hence the thread. id like to see more of your ideas as well, were not here to argue, or slam a peep for his ideas and if Im commin off like that im sorry.


thanks to all who have participated in the thread and look forward to more interestin input from IC growas

CBF

 

[Freakazoid44]

How chemicals differ from nature

How chemicals differ from nature

Interestin point, human selfin of the plant with what ever chem chosen induces the plant to hermie. i dont know what actually takes place once the chemical is applied, but either way the plant is a hermaphrodite. whether chemicals or nature. the chemical just induces the plant to hermie. just as mother nature would.

as for passin on the hermaphrodite tendencies, I believe that begins with the plant that was used in the process. its been reported many times of selfed seed with a abundance of hermaphrodies in the population. where as other S1s from breeders do just fine. also one thing to keep in mind is that most hermies are a result of growin enviorments. to many times i look at growers pics and they suffer from heat stress. how many growers have OPs that are 85F or more. cripes i seen a grower not to long ago that had a heatin pad under his flowerin plant in a 80f plus OP, LOL.

CBF

Here's where I think that differs - you may have a plant that has been bred to basically be very, very resistant to going hermie. The natural inclination has been bred out of it, and it isn't genetically there.

When someone uses STS or eXe solution, they're chemically completely suppressing the natural ethylene production (the female hormone in MJ), which causes male sex to develop instead of the female.

Taking a plant that has almost no natural inclination to go hermie, and chemically suppressing it's female hormones doesn't change the genetic characteristics that make it resistent to being hermie. And we're not forcing a plant to go hermie here, we're "reversing" it's sex by completely supressing it's natural inclination.

If you gouge my eyeballs out, my kids will still have eyes, because my genetic makeup is to have eyes, you've just altered the physical expression of my genetic traits - you haven't changed my DNA.

So, similar in how it's expressed, but at what level those expressions are caused is quite different.

{edit} I see, now that I did the reading I should have before, that the hermie vs. reversing and chemical mechanisms have been covered. Sorry for the rehash!

 

[JLP]

Hormones and chromosomes are two different things.Spraying any solultion on your plant will not change it's genetics."XX" is female and male is "XY".Unless your spray bottle contains an extra Y chromosome then you are not "creating a male" from an all female plant,you are causing a female plant to sport pollen sacs.A man can take hormones to grow bigger breasts but this doesn't make him into a woman.


Definition from the new word dictionary:
Her-maph-ro-dite n.
1.a person or animal with the sex organs of both male and female.2.a plant having stamens and pistils in the same flower.

The questions and reservations about feminized seeds didn't start with this thread,this conversation has been going on for years.


JLP

 

[Freakazoid44]

Yeah, but....

Yeah, but....

Hormones and chromosomes are two different things.Spraying any solultion on your plant will not change it's genetics."XX" is female and male is "XY".Unless your spray bottle contains an extra Y chromosome then you are not "creating a male" from an all female plant,you are causing a female plant to sport pollen sacs.A man can take hormones to grow bigger breasts but this doesn't make him into a woman.

What if he's really hot in drag....close enough? Worked for Eddie Murphy....

 

[King]

Hormones and chromosomes are two different things.Spraying any solultion on your plant will not change it's genetics."XX" is female and male is "XY".Unless your spray bottle contains an extra Y chromosome then you are not "creating a male" from an all female plant,you are causing a female plant to sport pollen sacs.A man can take hormones to grow bigger breasts but this doesn't make him into a woman.


Definition from the new word dictionary:
Her-maph-ro-dite n.
1.a person or animal with the sex organs of both male and female.2.a plant having stamens and pistils in the same flower.

The questions and reservations about feminized seeds didn't start with this thread,this conversation has been going on for years.


JLP

Hi JLP, than what exactly is a hermie chromosome wise? XX? XY? XXY? Do they all of a sudden gain another chromosome at a certain point in their life?

Why does a female plant not flower female than if we keep spraying it? Seems the only logical answer IMO is the flowering hormone. This is why some people are finding a second application is necessary on certain strains. To keep the female hormone suppressed. If it wasn't kept suppressed the plant would start to grow female flowers and cease pollen production. It'll revert back to 100% female, with no pollen sacs. How can this be explained?

 

[Freakazoid44]

Hermie genetics

Hermie genetics

Hi JLP, than what exactly is a hermie chromosome wise? XX? XY? XXY? Do they all of a sudden gain another chromosome at a certain point in their life?

Why does a female plant not flower female than if we keep spraying it? Seems the only logical answer IMO is the flowering hormone. This is why some people are finding a second application is necessary on certain strains. To keep the female hormone suppressed. If it wasn't kept suppressed the plant would start to grow female flowers and cease pollen production. It'll revert back to 100% female, with no pollen sacs. How can this be explained?

For the most part, a female that goes hermie has female flowers with X (half of the XX) genetics, then produces male flowers with X pollen (half of the XX genetics). Darwinistically speaking, the survival mechanism is to make it to the next season in the hopes of a genuine male being near enough to pollinate.

As far as suppressing the hormone, it's genetics plus expression. The genetic predisposition is there to produce flowers, and female ones, but the physical dynamic that creates the female flower is the female hormone production. Lacking the female hormones, it will push out male flowers. I think a lot of how much and how often has to be applied depends on the plants natural tendencies.

My question would be - would a male plant inundated with constant ethylene push out female flowers? Or is it that male plants don't have the mechanism to produce female flowers under any conditions, and female ones have the capacity to produce either - but also have the ability to produce female hormones? I'm pretty sure work has been done on this and there are probably a ton of links about this that I don't have at my fingertips.

I do recall a thread on OG where a guy kept his male plant alive forever (into the next growing season), and it pushed out trichomes eventually. It was weird, to say the least.

Ones that produce more hormones, or are more sentitive to the female hormone will, indeed revert if a follow-up spray isn't applied. Something in between might produce the male flowers to maturity, then also produce female flowers as well. One that has weaker hormonal tendencies will be set back enough by the spraying that there wouldn't be time to recover, so it produces a lot of pollen in male flowers, and no female flowers.

The real test would be - reverse the sex on a plant, take it to harvest, then reveg, though I'm not sure how revegging would work for a male plant. Or take cuttings after reversed and grow the clones out.

In either case, the reveg or the clones would be female.

One analogy that helps me out is humans and sleep. We think of sleeping as something we have to do to recover from wakeful activity. Actually, sleeping (if I remember my classes 15 years ago) is the default state of the brain. Certain hormones we produce cause our brain to be wakeful, and when those are depleted, the brain goes back to it's baseline state - sleep.

The baseline state, it seems, is pollen producing flowers, and the production of ethylene is needed for the production of "female" flowers.

 

[JLP]

Cannabis is the only annual that I'm aware of that has male and female plants(dioecious).All other annuals have both sexes in the same plant(a-sexual) and they pollenate themselves.Annuals are a one shot deal,it's entire lifecycle occurs in a single season.Therefore,annuals put a lot of effort into reproducing.If they did not evolve this way they would not have survived with such a short lifespan.
I believe that all Cannabis is hermaphroditic and it is a ressesive trait in most Cannabis although some hardcore landrace Sativas such as Thai are rather prone to it.
As Freakazoid pointed out,this is a built in survival mechanism.It is a last ditch effort by the plant to reproduce under adverse or stressfull situations.
If you take a female plant(XX) and repress the female hormones with a chemical,there is no reason for the plant to become male,rather it should stay in a constant state of veg creating no pistils.If you deprived a young girl of estrogen she would not turn male,but she would not develope breasts or menstrate normally either.
More likely is that the stress of the chemical application that causes the plant to become a hermaphrodite.This can also be done with gibberelic acid and perhaps a whole host of other chemicals that have yet to be found.
If it was truly possible to reverse the actual sex of a plant then you wouldn't see people cutting down males because someone would have figured out how to turn them into females by now if it were as simple as hormone application.
The original reason people used the selfing in Cannabis was to create all female seeds.Hermie pollen from a "XX" plant will create seeds that only have "XX" chromosomes,and therefore should all be female.But as I said,I think all Cannabis has a ressesive hermie trait and theres no way to tell if you unlock that trait if it will only last that generation or carry over to the seeds.

JLP

 

[Freakazoid44]

Good stuff for a bunch of stoners!

 

[Guest]

been on the road last few days. seems we have really gotton down to the dirty on the hermie issue when plant is selfed. JLP resonates my thinkin on it as i believe the plant is just bein stressed with the chems. like I said just my thinkin

somas rodelization is a natural self, wouldnt you agree? lettin a plant go late in flower and it will produce pollen to carry on. the plant not bein pollinated durin its flowerin cycle stresses the female plant into makin bananas.......this i have seen for myself with different strains......some will say its not stress its the plants normal doing. I like to think other wise, that the plant from not bein pollinated is stressed and its extinction factor kicks in.

CBF