what do ya growas think about Selfing?

[Guest]

my take from what i have grown.................

selfin a plant brings out recessive genes not other wise seen. I mean ancient shit

damn sure aint the elite clone!

as for hermies.........IMO it depends on the stock used and the breeder.

is it good for the gene pool? hell no, theres gonna be peeps all over spreadin selfed plants of elite clones that are bunk. its already outta control IMO.

even if ya somehow miraculously get a dup of the selfed plant, ya have 9 other plants that are not the elite. there still that strain but not the plant.

if ya took 10 selfed beans, and ten reg beans of the strain, i dont think the population would be close.

anyway just some thoughts to ponder.

CBF

 

[JLP]

I've followed the developments over the last couple years and I have grown selfed seeds.The only true way to re-produce an elite clone is to clone it,not self it.
You can stress the clone to check for hermaphroditism before you self it but that is really just a tool not a guarantee.
Here's a pic of a Reeferman's Feminized Blueberry Sativa.Notice anything wrong?
If it was a hermie I wouldn't think twice about it but that one,in appearance,looks like a solid male.No hairs ever appeared on it.If it was made from a selfed female then what is it?A single sex hermie?








The other 2 I have going look fine,all hairs and no sacks.
I'm willing to try just about anything but I'm not really impressed by the results of the few grows I've done.


JLP

 

[Capt. Crip]

JLP

JLP

Yes it could be a male hermie.Have you tried to stress it to see if it will produce any female flowers?
I agree and disagree with the above statements.1,if you have a plant in clone-only form with very special traits that you would like to share you must self to get seeds and/or begin a stabilization process.My SF is a perfect example.I can cross it with a true-breeder such as Blueberry but I will still have to deal with variation because the SF itself is not stable.In order to get more stable results with my SF crosses I have to stabilize the desired traits through selfing,there is no other way.
Another point is that choosing male plants is not easy.By selfing a selected female you do away with biggest part of the unknown(the pollen donor).It is much faster to stabilize a specific trait if both the female and the male (female pollen donor)have the desired trait.
Just a thought................................CC

 

[Guest]

I did the RM fem BB sativa, three plants all diff phenos, not even close. thought I had the clone plant or close, looked just like it, and purped up but was very weak potentcy wise. didnt see any hermies or a male.

capt, so you like a self for speed is what your sayin? or you just dont want any other genes in your line. cause you could outcross the clone with a placebo strain, and work back. selfin isnt the only way to stabilize traits, as im sure ya know. when your selfin your SF, you dont see alot of variation in that selfed pop.

some say a self is like a cube, faster stabilization of a line. i dont see that, i see lots of variation in the selfed pops ive grown. I may be missin your point. just seems selfin your plant creates more work to get rid of the recessives that appear.

CBF

 

[Guest]

I've followed the developments over the last couple years and I have grown selfed seeds.The only true way to re-produce an elite clone is to clone it,not self it.
You can stress the clone to check for hermaphroditism before you self it but that is really just a tool not a guarantee.
Here's a pic of a Reeferman's Feminized Blueberry Sativa.Notice anything wrong?
If it was a hermie I wouldn't think twice about it but that one,in appearance,looks like a solid male.No hairs ever appeared on it.If it was made from a selfed female then what is it?A single sex hermie?
JLP

Ive had males in two selfed seed grows, did a sibcross with one that im growin now, SBC. mainly just to see what the plants do. i think selfin stresses the plant, its extinction genes kick in and the selfed plant will throw out a male, just a theroy though. thinkin if ya grew out a large enough batch you would experience a male in the pop.

CBF

is there such a thing as a single sex hernie?

 

[Capt. Crip]

yes but

yes but

If you are growing big enough populations and making proper selections you can weed out unwanted traits in as little as 3 generations.You are speaking of Cubing when you spoke of outcrossing and working your way back following the desired traits,is this correct?

I do see tons of variation in selfing an F1,but each successive cross gets better/more stable.You do have to grow out a bunch to "find" what you are looking for (especially F2's)but for me I would rather self my SF then to outcross and work back although similar results could be had with both techniques.
You make a good point.That's the way they stabilized the Cinderella99,yes?Cubing?

 

[Capt. Crip]

one more thing

one more thing

There is something to be said about not having to deal with male plants.Special males are hard to discover and even harder to find a specific trait that can barely show itself without female flowers.This is another avenue we have to look down with this question.
It is nice to be able to look for something special in an all-female population.
It does seem easier in theory. :smile:
Male plants are a bitch But you gotta love em'
Well anywayzz :friends: Take care......................CC

 

[King]

Will let you know in a few weeks. Bubba and OG getting ready to go. Alittle variation in the 2 OG, all 4 Bubba's look pretty identical to me. I don't really see how recessives are going to show more like you say CBF. I strongly believe in feminised seed until I'm convinced otherwise, even with an occasional male here and there. Males seem a waste of time to me. Males don't show female flowering traits.

May I ask what traits you select for in your males you breed with? Do you smoke the sacs? Do you just take the fastest growing male?

Gonna do some selfing here and a big grow of the selfed seeds. Should be able to pop 45 selfed beans in my NFT and just let them go, right next to a clone from the original mother of course.

 

[Capt. Crip]

King

King

The best methods for choosing males is not smoking them IMO(who can bare it with mounds of buds laying around )I like to use the odor as my judge.A stem rub can tell you a bunch.The most odorous male will usually be the most potent.You can also feel for stickyness in the plants to determine which is the most resinous,but smoking males is torture :wink:
Take care......................CC

 

[Guest]

king I look for the most vigorous males, the most resinous, and what i like to see in growth. use the smell stem rub on all plants as capt had said. have been usin single males for my tiny projects but believe that selectin as many males and mixin there pollen across all the females. further down the road try and use single mutiple males across one lady to pick the best performin males. thats some time down the way.

the recessives, plants so far from the selfed plant, is what im seein. just for a example, the BB sativa, three phenos, one close to the original plant. shorter compact lots of bush to it. one with sativa bud. light airy, had the BB leaf shape and bushy, still tall like a sativa. the other a thai lookin plant, asian sativa for sure. big phat airy bud, spindly plant. that one right out of the stone age.

i cant speak on all femmed seed of course, but Ive tried three strains and really none that i would say im real happy with. selfin is more in line with what capt is doin, a breedin tool, i dont think the resultin selfed plants are for commercial seed.

capt, yes outcross, select the plants your lookin for and back to the mom or dad. however you run it. yes more time consummin. yeah C99 was worked in this manner. exact way the grimm bros performed it i dont know. have read there process on it a few times.

thanks for your comments and ideas. look for more input as we ponder selfed plants

CBF

 

[Capt. Crip]

CBF

CBF

It's crazy you got all different pheno's.
Theres something in this question for sure!When I cross my sweetheart female Blueberry to my standout male Blueberry I get stable results.Yes I have grown them out and it seems very stable.But seeing that the selfed Blueberry that RM did has so much variation seems strange.You would think they would have been somewhat stable ,but your results were the oppisite of my standard cross.
Do you think this variation has come about because of him choosing such an odd plant(sat dom Blueberry) from the population.Do you think the variation would have been there if he had chosen a standard Indica dominant plant to self?
How was the high from the sativa dom plant from your grow,the asian-like plant?

 

[Guest]

capt, i truely believe that the self of the plant is what brings out these plants. reefermans BB sativa plant is like 1 in 100 in a blueberry pop. and thats from the early BB runs. now how many plants would you have to look at to find the plant i grew(have pics if ya havent seen um). Im thinkin well over 500. i need to grow the rest of the beans and see if that plant pops up again. or any of the others. have ya selfed one of your BBs? try it, self that female BB you use in your standard cross. see what kind of plants come outta her. inbred as BB is you will get plants from the dawn of time

i seen the same results with other strains. and look at that male of JLPs........what is that? that plant just crawled outta the ocean, lol.

the strawberry cough, hasnt been that diverse, but still for a stable strain I dont think you should see 4 to 5 phenotypes. more by the time I wallow through the rest of the SF1s(ref).

im not seein anything amoung the plants that you could say all have. maybe node spacin, lol. no really, theres plants i could group by leaf shape, height and such. but i dont think it would be 50% of the pop.

the indica/sativa thing i been thinkin over. the diff fem beans i have grown, it seems like its always the sativa side of the genes that display themselves. the jungle in um, lol

hey all dont take things to heart, this is just general discussion(cover my azz)LOL

on the smoke from the BBsativa. asian lookin plant.....with out lookin back at comments, it was a tad harsh on the throat, earthy with slight fruit. was not a head bangin sally. up head with a med duration, around 1hr. at the time i really wanted the BB taste and smell. almost convinced my self, lol

CBF

 

[Capt. Crip]

hum?

hum?

That male is a strange fellow,I wonder if it's a stray seed that got mixed in with the fem seeds.
CBF,
Yes indeed,I will try to self the Blueberry female to see what happens.Should be intresting to say the least.Great topic BTW.
Take care.....................CC

 

[Guest]

capt, thanks for jumpin in, glad ya did. it is interestin. and ill keep an eye out for the BB mom down the road like to see the results also.

CBF

 

[JLP]

Here's a pic I took a few minutes ago of the other 2 BB sat I have in flower.They are a bit different.The one on the right has some nice purpling in the buds.

I grew a couple DP fem. Strawb Cough not long ago.Both solid fems,average growth,average stone.Tasted a little like Cali-O to me but not strawberry.
I've got some of Orgnkid's Blackberry S1 going in flower now and they are all 3 female with some variation.
Haven't seen any hermies yet except for that male.I kept it going till it realeased pollen.I did use a small bit of pollen on one of the lower buds on my best BB fem so I'll have few seeds to play with.


Nice pics CBF.Get any purple from your

JLP

 

[Guest]

JLP, i didnt see any purple in the first two plants. both went I think 83 days. and at that they werent completely cloudy. they prolly coulda went 100 days, lol

cant find a pic of the last plant. didnt turn out as had some problems in the grow(another thread)but it was nothin like the first two which were simular one much bushier and denser bud. this last plant resembled his pic on his site. have a few more of the beans i may run at a future date.

I purchased the beans cause I heard the BB sativa is good breedin material, and wanted a nice purple plant in the garden. was lucky enough to be gifted a Blue Sat#1 that is full purple plant. need to run it again as it didnt do well last go either.

CBF

 

[JohnBudd]

This is a great topic, because many don't realize the trial and error that goes into breeding. Getting a strain stable is not an easy task, not just with mj, but with all plants. Peeps spend there entire lives working on grape stock to get the perfect wine.
Selfing is not natural, so to expect natural results IMO is a crap-shoot. Not saying the moon and planets might not line up that one special day.....or you could spend 30 years trying to get one right.
F1 seed stock, picking stout/stinky males, and frosty/healthy females is the only way............."It's not nice to fool with MotherNature"........lightning sounds ect.....you get the point.

 

[Guest]

Selfing is not natural, so to expect natural results IMO is a crap-shoot. .

hey JB, nice you dropped in. selfin is actually a natural occurrance in pot. as all have seen, plants(some more than others) hermie from many causes. In nature, a plant that does not get pollinated, or stressed by animals, weather, bugs, whatever stresses the plant, causes what is called a extinction factor, that kicks in and the plant will self/hermie to continue another generation.

just a idea i have read else where.

CBF

 

[Guest]

Great thread, very interesting theories/opinions...

FJ, thanks for stoppin by. yep thread is progressin along nicely enjoyin it quite a bit.

Im a beginner, just muddlin through. i dont consider myself a breeder, not much on the book stuff, more along usin your senses selectin plants. what ya see, smell , and taste. they did it back in the day, no reason it wouldnt work today

CBF

 

[giantmanbags]

This is cool.
Question to anyone.....would selfing an IBL or F1 clone result in a generation that shows variation like a normal F2, F3 or maybe beyond?? Can selfing be used as a shortcut to F3 or beyond generations or is an S1 generation too scattered to determine this? Does it have ANY mathematical logic? Thanks guys cool thread.