Wanna Ask The Old Farts A Question?

[Weezard]

Howzit Jope?

Nice thread Hempkat! And good stuff with the LEDs Weezard, as always

I was wondering about that light saturation point...

"If we were using white light, saturation/bleaching would occur at >91K LUX.
Double the distance and we still have more that 22.5K LUX.
That will grow some fine bud."

As you say, with white light saturation occurs at 91K.

The 91K LUX number is something that I read about saturation under sunlight.
And was not specific to Cannabis.

On the Islands we exceed that figure at noon and some plants stop growing through "siesta time"
Different plants have different sat. points.
Cannabis strains, can usually take a joke outdoors.

What about with LEDs at 660nm and 450nm? I took a look at your album and there you seem to have some 70K at 12" and some 25K at 24". What's that inverse square law loophole you're referring to?

Good question.
That light is one of my first prototypes.
Built it to test lensing effects.
Those are 5W. emitters with 90 degree plastic lenses
I still use it in veg.
The 7:3 ratio keeps the internodes short.

I'm using those same 15W red and blue LED emitters and I checked my lux readings. I get similar readings at a few inches closer. The difference for you is most likely due to your lensed LEDs.

Bingo! that's correct
And there's your "loophole".
Once you narrow the angle to less that 180 degrees the ISL is no longer as limiting.
Of course you also have a smaller area of coverage.
Not a "free lunch" just a trade off.
Bought some lenses for the 15W emitters but had to remove them as theyran way too hot!

Well anyways.. I'm kinda puzzled, is 6" good or should it be more like 12"? And is there any way to make use of those lux readings? I got some prolonged flowering times last time and I'm sure a part of it has to do with the lights being too close for some plants, had some slight bleaching too.

Bleaching = much too close.
Remember, they stop growing before they start bleaching.
Next please

The six inch guesstimate was for a 300W. commercial lamp and was an educated guess on my part based on the use of 1W. emitters in a flat array.

Your 15W, emitter should be more like 10 - 12" depending on how hard you drive them and how cool they run.
LUX reading are not valid with narrow spectrum light but are still a useful indicator for us ledheads.

Drop the light 'til bleaching occurs, and take a measurement.
Then you can use that reading to set the distance of other lights with the same colors, yah?
Give them a 3 or 4" safety buffer and you're good.

Aloha y'all
Weezard

 

[archer66]

thx

thx

thx Hempcat , i was thinking that my water now at summer may be a bit diferent then from 3-4 months before. I'll have to stick with the pH reactive, that metter you linked is at the same price as those i've seen in the 2 or 3 webstore for such grow stuff that have poped up lately. I'll continue to dilute my tap with distiled water to get good pH, its just that many things passed through my head about tap water and its contains ( and diferences in seeds). I wont give up!

 

[Jopedijoo]

Thanks for the reply Weeze!

Earlier today when I checked the lux ratings the blue LEDs gave a bigger reading at the same distance than the red ones. Not by a large margin but anyways. I bleached one top with a red 15W emitter at around 2" I'd say, I didn't measure it at the time.

Your 15W, emitter should be more like 10 - 12" depending on how hard you drive them and how cool they run.

Give them a 3 or 4" safety buffer and you're good.

Bleaching point plus that 3-4" sounds good to me. 10-12" seems too much for me but you might have it otherwise. My wack-o-meter says 90 degrees F when attached to the heatsink behind an emitter, full throttle. Cool enough I suppose.

I was also trying to grow small plants so keeping the light at 6" seemed to work well. Maybe at 10-12" you could even start to see some growth if that's preferred . Hows that?

 

[HempKat]

thx Hempcat , i was thinking that my water now at summer may be a bit diferent then from 3-4 months before. I'll have to stick with the pH reactive, that metter you linked is at the same price as those i've seen in the 2 or 3 webstore for such grow stuff that have poped up lately. I'll continue to dilute my tap with distiled water to get good pH, its just that many things passed through my head about tap water and its contains ( and diferences in seeds). I wont give up!

Yeah tapwater can sometimes be a bad thing and typically when the ph is high like that it's because of all the extra stuff added to make it safe for human consumption. Unfortunately what's safe for humans is not always good for plants. If you could afford it I'd switch to just using distilled water for your plants. That or look into some sort of filtration system to clean your tapwater up.

 

[archer66]

a 10liter bottle of distiled is like (converted currency) ~2$ and will fit me for a long time since i do PC grow, but its ph is like bellow 6, thats why i was going on diluting it.
I wish i could get larger quantitis from this machine http://www.wolflabs.co.uk/elga_purelab_option_range.htm , an older version at my work we got 2 , one getting out at ~6.3 the other at ~8 ph but wrong ppl may see me and will get nasty.

 

[HempKat]

a 10liter bottle of distiled is like (converted currency) ~2$ and will fit me for a long time since i do PC grow, but its ph is like bellow 6, thats why i was going on diluting it.
I wish i could get larger quantitis from this machine http://www.wolflabs.co.uk/elga_purelab_option_range.htm , an older version at my work we got 2 , one getting out at ~6.3 the other at ~8 ph but wrong ppl may see me and will get nasty.

Well definately don't do anything that would put your job at risk. Odd, here in America distilled water is almost always 6.5ph to 7.0ph well if you want to keep mixing fine but you need your ph to be no higher then 6.5 for soil and around 5.5 for hydro. The one machine at work that puts out 6.3 water would be just about perfect but again it's not worth risking your job.

 

[stagger lee]

As a result the stalk will actually go into an overdrive of sorts, and all the buds will see an increased vigor, due mostly to the flush of hormonal material that gets sent to the area.

Besides, if you do not smash the stalk, it will not stay where you put it no how..no way..unless you tie or weight it to keep it there. Smashing it allows you to make it stay where you want it.

Hempkat (thanks hoosier) I had wouldve thought that smashing/crushing the stalk in the bent area would cause a kinda scar tissue buildup in the area resricting flow somewhat? I realize the plant heals itself quickly and doubles insize in that area but never knew it causes an increase in vigor? I remember reading about the hormonal flush to damaged area but thought that restricted flow and unwanted stress(more males when growing from seed) made more sense to go w/bend and tie down method..

 

[Weezard]

Distilled water is a blank slate.

Distilled water is a blank slate.

Well definately don't do anything that would put your job at risk. Odd, here in America distilled water is almost always 6.5ph to 7.0ph well if you want to keep mixing fine but you need your ph to be no higher then 6.5 for soil and around 5.5 for hydro. The one machine at work that puts out 6.3 water would be just about perfect but again it's not worth risking your job.

Aloha,

Technically, Distilled water has no PH.
Attempts to read it will give misleading results.
There are simply not enough dissolved solids for a conductance meter to function.
That's why good growers advise mixing the nutes before measuring PH.
Don't give pure water a number, just consider it PH neutral until you amend it, yah?

Tupenny.
Aloha,
Weeze

 

[HempKat]

Hempkat (thanks hoosier) I had wouldve thought that smashing/crushing the stalk in the bent area would cause a kinda scar tissue buildup in the area resricting flow somewhat? I realize the plant heals itself quickly and doubles insize in that area but never knew it causes an increase in vigor? I remember reading about the hormonal flush to damaged area but thought that restricted flow and unwanted stress(more males when growing from seed) made more sense to go w/bend and tie down method..

Well what I've always gone by on this subject was what was in the growFAQ at OverGrow when it was in existence. I forget which item it was in the growFAQ (it was under supercropping though) as there were more then one item on the subject. I believe it was the one by someone called smokinrav? Anyway he talked about bending and training plants for a low profile and that when these damaged areas from training heal not only can they support more weight but they can also transfer more fluids.

In fact what I had always believed was that, the increased vigor people see after doing this was because of the increased flow and not some hormonal surge (increased water = increased nutrients = increased growth = increased bud mass). All I ever related to the increased hormonal surge is how the grow tips that are lower then a pinched or topped main grow tip all suddenly surge up in height and behave like primary grow tips.

As for which method makes more sense, well that's the beauty of having multiple methods of doing the same thing. Each person can go with what system feels best to them. People that do the pinching thing, it's always been my impression they really do a bit of both pinching and bending and tying. Usually doing the bending and tying early on to shape the plant and develope multiple grow tips and then pinching later of those grow tips to control height in the short term and to improve strength and fluid/nutrient transfer in the long term.

 

[HempKat]

Aloha,

Technically, Distilled water has no PH.
Attempts to read it will give misleading results.
There are simply not enough dissolved solids for a conductance meter to function.
That's why good growers advise mixing the nutes before measuring PH.
Don't give pure water a number, just consider it PH neutral until you amend it, yah?

Tupenny.
Aloha,
Weeze

Ah I never heard that, I was always told it was ph nuetral which is 7.0 but that ones from less reputable companies might actually be around 6.5 or so. Either way I do agree that measuring water before hand doesn't do too much good. Although one should consider that if the ph is unusually high or low it could be an indication of something in the water and not that the meter is reading inaccurately because the ppm is so low. That something could be some unwanted or unneeded element that could cause problems even if the ph could be balanced out with ph up or down after mixing.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Let em throw another lil bit at the pH thing...
I grow mainly in dirt, and I rarely check my pH out. But when I do, I like to wait until I have everything mixed up, and then I will take a cup of the medium and make a mud slurry with the nute water. I use a very generic cheapo meter from HomedePot (one with the two probes and the analog needle) which are made for checking slurries...in fact they aren't very accurate at all with any other method, but if used as directed..and I mean exactly as they tell you to do it, including the cleaning of the probes each time with the provided cleaning thingy, then the things work as well as a $100 model.
It makes sense to me to only check out a slurry of all the ingredients. I mean, pH can change from the time it leaves the pour spout to when it hits the soil. Things in the nutes, as well as things in the soil, can change the ultimate pH. And we want to know what the pH is when it is where it goes, yes? IMO checking runoff is after the fact, just as checking before watering is before the fact.

But like I said, I rarely check pH for any reason any more. Maybe once a year to make sure they haven't changed things up on me at the well fields.

Now this is for sure a FWIW, but I have found that you can have some wild swings in pH, but when you add Botanicare PBP Flower it tends to bring things in line for whatever reason.

 

[Billy Burroughs]

a 10liter bottle of distiled is like (converted currency) ~2$ and will fit me for a long time since i do PC grow, but its ph is like bellow 6, thats why i was going on diluting it.
I wish i could get larger quantitis from this machine http://www.wolflabs.co.uk/elga_purelab_option_range.htm , an older version at my work we got 2 , one getting out at ~6.3 the other at ~8 ph but wrong ppl may see me and will get nasty.

uh just to give you a heads up but distilled water is the worst thing you could be putting on your plants dont remeber the specifics but i do know it's a no no it's not like using RO water where it stil has some of the natural elements in it in distilled water it's stripped of everything but water and water alone my guess would be cal mag deff's and probablly other weird kinda def's going on in that pc grow and really i dont get the whole i'm going to risk going to prison over an eigth of weed when i could grow 5 pounds and get same penalty but you keep on waiting for hat motherload to come in via the pc grow my brother but if you want it to yield 5 grams instead of 3.5 might want to start using RO water instead of distilled

 

[Billy Burroughs]

i grow in dirt myself and i ph my water becasue i use RO water and the water here in vegas is super shitty and typically super high ph so i have to otherwise if we had good water here i'd never ph waste of time unless its needed and the idea of mixing up a "slurry" seems like a very accurate way to maybe tell the ph of your soil and nutes mixed together but thats not going to give you the ph number that really matters
this pH is the one taken on the run off water the water that collects in the drip tray this is where pH comes into play and only where it matters in dirt the run off pH is what you need to be worrying yourself about and not the pH's of some "slurry"
myself i add ph up and down as needed and have found out a kinda system of how much to add and when to slack off to keep my run offs in that 6.2-6.3 range that i want them in i myself use a ammended soil 100% true organics i add nothing to my water but epsom salts during veg to supplement for the cal/mag deff from RO water and in veg they grow in nothing but roots organic soil 1 gallon pots for 2 months then they go into my ammended soil mix for flower and thats in a 7 gallon pot only thing added during flower is molasses and carbs for micro herd i dont need nutes i buy ammendments in bulk and mix up oh my mix fills 3-4 45 gallon rubber maid totes depending on how many times you've reused it i reuse it 3 times and start over due tom pest control but it can be used over n over n over again many ppl do it
once again my friend your worrying about the wrong pH it's the run off you need to be worrying yourself with the plant dont care what the ph of the soil is within reason if you hotted up a soil sure its going to burn once again pointing out how important that run off pH is i pH before and after but its the run off that im worried about i ph before because after doing this for so long i've kinda gotten an idea of how long i need to use an alkaline water and hw long i need to use an acidic water to keep that run off within my parameters yours might be different this is just where i like to run my soil less dirt

 

[Weezard]

Brilliant!

Brilliant!

Aloha, HD

You said:
" And we want to know what the pH is when it is where it goes, yes?"

That's sig.-worthy!

Wish I'd said that.

"You must spread, yada yada"

Aloha,
Weeze

 

[Weezard]

What all is in dat dirt?

What all is in dat dirt?

uh just to give you a heads up but distilled water is the worst thing you could be putting on your plants dont remeber the specifics but i do know it's a no no it's not like using RO water where it stil has some of the natural elements in it in distilled water it's stripped of everything but water and water alone my guess would be cal mag deff's and probablly other weird kinda def's going on in that pc grow and really i dont get the whole i'm going to risk going to prison over an eigth of weed when i could grow 5 pounds and get same penalty but you keep on waiting for hat motherload to come in via the pc grow my brother but if you want it to yield 5 grams instead of 3.5 might want to start using RO water instead of distilled

I'll second that.
Distilled water will suck the life out of your plants by osmotic pressure in a hydro setup.

Soil? Ah dunno.
I'd guess that the purity is compromised on contact, yah?

Someone knows for sure, please speak-up.

Aloha,
Weeze

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Never had one issue using distilled water in soil. And yes, the process of distillation does remove calcium and magnesium and should be supplemented. Once or twice throughout the grow with a supplement like CalMag+ will give what's lacking from distilled water. Too much cal/mag and they will lock out.

Weez, wouldn't the nutes adjust the water in the hydro system?

 

[Weezard]

Never had one issue using distilled water in soil. And yes, the process of distillation does remove calcium and magnesium and should be supplemented. Once or twice throughout the grow with a supplement like CalMag+ will give what's lacking from distilled water. Too much cal/mag and they will lock out.

Weez, wouldn't the nutes adjust the water in the hydro system?

Absatively!

My lesson came when I tried to root cuttings in rainwater.
They rooted 95% in Chloramine laced tap water, @120ppm.
0% in rainwater.
The rainwater osmosed da poor t'ing to death.
Just to check dat I tried steam distilled water.

Same thing, just sucked all the mobile ions out.

Also learned about the too much CalMag the hard way.

Makes pretty red stems though.

Mahalo!
Weeze

 

[HempKat]

Well this here pretty much covers water.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/growfaq/94.htm

Distilled water is no better and no worse then RO water or water obtained from and AC or a dehumidifier. What these all have in common is they all have either 0 ppm or very low ppm such that any of them can cause problems if used straight with nothing added. Of course that doesn't even apply to the case of archer66, who has stated that he mixes the distilled with tap.

 

[Spanishwilly]

Aloha,

Technically, Distilled water has no PH.
Attempts to read it will give misleading results.
There are simply not enough dissolved solids for a conductance meter to function.
That's why good growers advise mixing the nutes before measuring PH.
Don't give pure water a number, just consider it PH neutral until you amend it, yah?

Tupenny.
Aloha,
Weeze

Distilled water has a PH of 7.0. There's no such thing as "no PH."
It's PH neutral- 7.0.
It is correct that an EC meter will give no reading in distilled water because there are no dissolved solids for it to detect.
This however, is completely unrelated to the PH level.

 

[archer66]

What i know for distiled water is that it is pH neutral untill it makes contact with air, and it has nothing in it (we dont even use it for mixing with home made alchohol just becouse of that) and by mixing it ~50/50 i think i lower the hardness by half and still have good stuff, i just dont know if it is chlorine or chloramine thats in it.
Another thing that bothers me is that i store my whater (when i dilute it) in a bottle in dark, but a closed bottle, can this be bad for my plants?