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Vote YES or NO on Prop 19

Vote YES or NO on Prop 19


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vta

Active member
Veteran
How CA Is Leading The Legal-Marijuana Movement

By Adam Cohen
Source: Time Magazine

cannabis USA -- The cult movie Reefer Madness, released in 1938, warned of the horrors of marijuana — or, as a movie poster put it, "the torturer that never stops." The film was an extreme portrait, full of death and rape and depravity, but it was only an exaggerated version of the real fears America long had about marijuana. Yet in recent years, as medical use of marijuana has gained acceptance and the backing of the law, that century-old national consensus has slowly broken down. And now, this election season, it could completely shatter, starting in California.

Next month, Californians will vote on Proposition 19: the Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010. Prop 19 would make recreational use of marijuana entirely legal — and allow cash-strapped cities to raise funds by taxing it. Completely legalizing pot may sound like a radical idea, but not to the people who are actually going to decide: the latest Public Policy Institute of California poll found that 52% of likely voters support Prop 19, with just 41% who oppose it.

In fact, Prop 19 is polling better than Senator Barbara Boxer or her Republican opponent, Carly Fiorina. It is also outpolling the gubernatorial candidates, Democrat Jerry Brown and Republican Meg Whitman. It is gaining support as the election grows nearer — and it has the backing of the state Service Employees International Union, perhaps the state's most powerful union.

Even if the Prop 19 does not pass, there is not much left to the laws against marijuana in California. More than three decades ago, the state decriminalized possession of small amounts of pot, making it a misdemeanor punishable by a fine. Last week, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger took decriminalization a big step further: he downgraded possession of an ounce or less of pot to an infraction. That means that someone caught with as many as 30 joints will soon get traffic-ticket-level punishment — and no criminal record.

California is not only the largest state, it is the place where social movements begin, and it has led on marijuana policy before: it was the first state to legalize medical marijuana, in 1996, and since then, 13 states and the District of Columbia have followed. Already, a group in Colorado is working to put a Prop 19–like referendum on the ballot there in 2012. A poll of Coloradoans found that 49% favored legalizing and taxing marijuana, with just 39% opposed.

One of the main arguments for rethinking marijuana laws is economic. A new study by the libertarian Cato Institute found that turning cannabis into a regulated commodity would save $8.7 billion in law-enforcement costs annually, while generating $8.7 billion in revenue.

Supporters of Prop 19 argue that in these dire fiscal times, when the state has been laying off teachers and hospitals have been firing nurses, putting low-level pot users through the legal system is a luxury California cannot afford. Governor Schwarzenegger — who opposes Prop 19, which he believes goes too far — said when he signed the pot-infraction law that bringing criminal charges for pot possession is a waste of "limited resources" in a time when the state faces "drastic budget cuts."

The governor may also have been thinking about conditions in his state's prisons, which house twice as many inmates as they were designed to hold, and were ordered last year to reduce the overcrowding.

Prop 19 is also getting strong backing from civil rights groups, including the state National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the Latino Voters League. Fueling their support is a study by the Drug Policy Alliance that found that in the state's 25 largest counties, blacks were arrested at double, triple and even quadruple the rate of whites — even though studies have shown that young blacks use marijuana at lower rates than young whites.

But the biggest factor driving the pro-legalization movement is simply changing attitudes. People today are more skeptical of the claim that pot is a gateway drug and that people who use it are destined to move on to harder substances. In fact, a study published last month in the Journal of Health and Social Behavior found that life factors like employment status and stress were stronger predictors of whether teenagers would use other illegal drugs than whether they had smoked marijuana.

Many supporters of legalization acknowledge that marijuana has bad health effects. They just argue that it is hypocritical to make pot use a crime, when alcohol — which has well-documented links to automobile fatalities, domestic abuse and birth defects — remains legal. The alcohol industry has been contributing to the "Say No on Prop 19" campaign, no doubt worried that if pot is legalized, it will cut into beer and liquor sales.

If Prop 19 passes, marijuana will not be entirely legal in California. It would still violate federal law and the federal Drug Enforcement Administration could still arrest and prosecute people. But as a practical matter, the overwhelming majority of marijuana arrests are done by state law enforcement, and it seems unlikely the Federal Government would take up the slack. Last year, in fact, the Justice Department announced that it would not prosecute people who use medical marijuana in states that have made it legal.

The best indicator of where marijuana policy is headed may be the demographic breakdown of the Prop 19 polling. In a SurveyUSA poll, only 36% of likely California voters over the age of 65 said they were certain to vote yes, while 61% of those between 18 and 34 were certain they would. That is similar to the gap that polls have found for gay marriage — another social issue on which public opinion and national policy have been changing fast. When polls show a dramatic gap between the generations, as they do on marijuana legalization, it is a good bet that before long, the young people's position will prevail.

Cohen, a lawyer, is a former TIME writer and a former member of the New York Times editorial board. Case Study, his legal column for TIME.com, appears every Wednesday.

Source: Time Magazine (US)
Author: Adam Cohen
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
Wouldn't 215 also violate those international treaties and provide a very easy way for the feds to nullify 215? Last I looked 215 was still a federal violation.

True 215 is a federal violation and the Supreme Court in upheld the federal prohibition (sighting the commerce clause) so 215 is still illegal federally and they do their raids as they wish.

215 does not allow for the open selling of MJ it only allows for patients to have collectives and such. Since 215 doesn't authorize the sale it is hard to say it violates treaties which ban the sale or export of MJ (guessing the Dutch aren't party to such treaties, but the USA tries to force it on most of the world).


Some other questions - if 19 passes, it looks like local/state law enforcement can't help the feds legally. Would the same restrictions apply to those doing business in the state - for example, the electric company giving your consumption info to the feds?

No if a federal judge issues a subpoena for your records PG&E will hand it over before you even knew they were asked. Also I bet Google and other may cave.


Without seeing these treaties, it's hard for me to figure out why 19 would run afoul while 215 wouldn't - if there's an exception for 'medical' use, then why would they be going after 215 users now? If 19 can be nullified because of international treaties, do you think a bill that had no restrictions at all would have a chance in hell?

As for me, yes on 19 AND yes on any better bill that may come along later. The opposition will try to get any bill , whether it's 19 or something better, overturned in court. It's a fight now and it'll continue to be a fight each time you try to get better laws. The opposition would probably like it if people decided to give up and accept what they have instead of asking for more and once they get complacent, the opposition will start trying to pick apart what you do have (not all at once, but in bits and pieces).

You are correct until this passes and the feds do what they are going to do no one can be certain. If prop 19 can be defeated by a challenge based on treaty I'm pretty sure any other form of LEGALIZATION would be defeated for similar reasons.

From what VTA posted earlier prop 19 seems to be a mellow boring affair as concerns money spent for or against a CA prop. 10x1 dollars for Yes campaign but still really low amount compared to other CA ballot initiatives.

We've already won the war they just don't know it yet.

:joint:
 

BiG H3rB Tr3E

"No problem can be solved from the same level of c
Veteran

15 other polls show 19 ahead. and if you read the biased piece of shit article they posted with that poll it is obvious reuters has an agenda behind their "poll results". fuck em.
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
i think things are fine the way they are. so cal med user so i already can grow plenty legally

This is something EVERY inch of change must over come. When people think things are fine the way they are it is VERY had to get them to vote YES for change.

Even so looks like 19 passes and we'll see if the emperor has no clothes.

:joint:
 
G

guest4098

what ever happend to small government? what ever happend to states rights? shit is so corrupt....its all special interest and big money back door deals. its a fucking shame we cant march on washington with guns like our fore fathers did without looking like terrorists....

The British did think of them as terrorists! From your quoted statement above the US gov might call you one! Do you like Ron Paul?

With the Kindergarden Cop's new classification of 1 oz or less as an infraction rather then a misdemeanor the passing of prop 19 is even more of a waste. We should be getting real legalization out of this if we are giving them the right to tax our industry.
 

Big D

icmagic
Veteran
I don't think some of you guys really know how things work. Everything in prop 19 that you don't like is in there to get to get it on the ballot. People have concerns, most people don't want their kids smoking, most people don't want huge grow ops next door to them and so on.... it was debated and concessions were made... that's how things work. You give a little to reach your goal which is the legalization of cannabis.

But you guys already have what you want so everyone else be damned. That is exactly what is wrong with our country, people put their own interest a head of the common good.
 

BiG H3rB Tr3E

"No problem can be solved from the same level of c
Veteran
i think things are fine the way they are. so cal med user so i already can grow plenty legally

That's why dispensaries are getting shut down left and right? I don't understand why ANY mmj patient would be against 19 unless they are illegally selling fir profit. There is NO other reason I can imagine...
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
That's why dispensaries are getting shut down left and right? I don't understand why ANY mmj patient would be against 19 unless they are illegally selling fir profit. There is NO other reason I can imagine...

How does 19 stop counties from shutting dispensaries they don't like?

Doesn't 19 allow counties to FORBID or PROHIBIT sales of MJ?

:joint:
 

BiG H3rB Tr3E

"No problem can be solved from the same level of c
Veteran
How does 19 stop counties from shutting dispensaries they don't like?

Doesn't 19 allow counties to FORBID or PROHIBIT sales of MJ?

:joint:

Marijuana is still illegal under 215. Marijuana sales are still illgeal under 215.

Under 19 posession, cultivation and sales of marijuana will be legal. Sure counties can opt out of allowing it, but it will be much harder for them to reason why when they allow a much more dangerous substance like alcohol to be bought and sold legally.
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
Marijuana is still illegal under 215. Marijuana sales are still illgeal under 215.

Under 19 posession, cultivation and sales of marijuana will be legal. Sure counties can opt out of allowing it, but it will be much harder for them to reason for banning sales.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sales will ONLY be legal if the county APPROVES.

If so it seems that counties that WANT to shut dispensaries will be ALLOWED to do so under 19 just as they are now.

"much harder for them to reason for banning sales." Really? I think both of us agree there is NO VALID reason to ban sales now, but they love doing it. How much reason do you think it will take for San Diego county to change its position? If they can ban sales now when they have NO REAL REASON, what will change after the vote?

:joint:
 

mxrider4

New member
prop 19 dead

prop 19 dead

Prop 19 will not pass. As with all hot topic issues people tend to break to the conservative side come election day. Even the polls that it is ahead in are very close and when time comes to vote people wont vote for this type of hot ticket item. Just face it, not this year guys. Im glad
 

rives

Inveterate Tinkerer
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Prop 19 will not pass. As with all hot topic issues people tend to break to the conservative side come election day. Even the polls that it is ahead in are very close and when time comes to vote people wont vote for this type of hot ticket item. Just face it, not this year guys. Im glad

"Even the polls that it is ahead in"? I have only seen one poll where it is not. Face it - 2010 is the year. I'm glad.
 

Big D

icmagic
Veteran
How does 19 stop counties from shutting dispensaries they don't like?

Doesn't 19 allow counties to FORBID or PROHIBIT sales of MJ?

:joint:

another thing put in to get 19 on the ballot. That is never going to change.

there are counties in southern states that don't allow alcohol... it called a dry county.
 

kmk420kali

Freedom Fighter
Veteran
Prop 19 will not pass. As with all hot topic issues people tend to break to the conservative side come election day. Even the polls that it is ahead in are very close and when time comes to vote people wont vote for this type of hot ticket item. Just face it, not this year guys. Im glad

Well shit...seems we have done all this for nothing!!
Good Debate you had there MX...lots of Facts and Reason--:laughing:
 

dagnabit

Game Bred
Veteran
don't get me fucking started .... iv been the one calling for an end to the 2 party system since I've been eligible to vote .... but it's more than obvious demys are far more in support than repys. not talking about representives,,,, but voters in general. are there conservatives voting pro19? yes...,but there a far more voting against it. BELIEVE THAT

if their voting no..they are not conservatives at all...

;)
 

mxrider4

New member
no on 19

no on 19

Im just saying that its a controversial issue. When a controversial issue is this close in the polls people ussaly tend not to vote for change. I know it is ahead in most polls but they are very close if not with in the margin of error. So people will break towards a no vote come election day. That is the general trend anyways. And california is a very conservative state still. Just becuz san fran and la is full of liberal whack jobs doesnt mean the whole state is. Just remember that its way to close in the polls for it to pass. I wouldnt bet the farm on it not passing but id bet the wife thats for sure. we will see. And just cuz I have one post doesnt mean anything. I read this site and numerous other forums for years without posting. I just like the info. The off gassing thread really saved me a headache I was having since 2007 with my plants fucking up for no reason. It was the ngw hose.. fuckers

Ill try to look up some examples of hot ticket items breaking towards the no vote when its this close. so you haters can have something to chew on
 
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