Vote YES or NO on Prop 19

[mean mr.mustard]

what entity?

this is a voter initiative the "entity" is all the people who signed it.

that is one "explicit example of failed logic"

The entity being people who have kept it off the roster up until now. We are still the government... if you want to extrapolate to that point. So why appease those people with tax revenue? They already get paid for every ass in a cell. I'm not seeing failed logic yet.

the next is that the regulation in 19 is somehow more strict than the current PROHIBITION on non medical grows.
there is absolutely NO stricter regulation than prohibition.

It does make harsher penalties for offenses. Your logic is failing.

the next failed logic is that if this initiative fails it wont be seen as a mandate against legalization.

So it couldn't be construed as voters voting down shoddy work?

the next bit of failed logic is the implication that you want to wait for a completely unregulated free for all.

It may pan out that passing this proposition will hand those in power (entity ) control over things they previously had no control over. In this case, it'd make sense to cook a real bill up before we hand over control of our market... but then again you think we're all in the same boat, legislators and voters.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

because they support continued prohibition.
because their allies are law enforcement and known prohibitionists
because they use the EXACT same lies and fear tactics that prohibitionists have used for years.
because if it walks like a duck,talks like a duck,tastes like a duck and smells like a duck it probably aint a chipmunk

This looks like some hard propaganda.

I support a better bill.
Who exactly are my LEO and known prohibitionist allies?
I'm not lying and am pretty sure that I'm not trying to scare anyone.
I'm not a duck.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

what is taking so long?

This may be why some are in such a rush to pass this.

You think it shouldn't take more than eleven hours to fund and write a new bill?

:jawdrop:

 

[Bacchus]

...I think there's plenty of room for all of us to continue a kushy lifestyle in a post-legalization California.

.....

If this passes, UPS and FedEx will have some many more packages going East they might as well build a pipeline.

 

[dagnabit]

This may be why some are in such a rush to pass this.

You think it shouldn't take more than eleven hours to fund and write a new bill?

:jawdrop:

11 hours?

we have had 70 years.
now someone puts their money and freedom on the line and everyone is all "lets make our own bill"

where the fuck have you been?

you must have been joking with that 11 hours BULLSHIT

 

[dagnabit]

This looks like some hard propaganda.

is it "propaganda" if it is true?

I support a better bill.

link to the "better bill" please?

Who exactly are my LEO and known prohibitionist allies?

Gregory Ahern — Sheriff, Alameda County

Tom Allman — Sheriff, Mendocino County

John Anderson — Sheriff, Madera County

Lee Baca — Sheriff, Los Angeles County

Virginia Black — Retired Sheriff, Yuba County

Edward Bonner — Sheriff, Placer County

Tom Bosenko — Sheriff, Shasta County

Bill Brown — Sheriff, Santa Barbara County

Adam Christianson — Sheriff, Stanislaus County

Bill Cogbill — Sheriff, Sonoma County

Lorrac Craig — Sheriff, Trinity County

Dennis Downum — Sheriff, Calaveras County

Steven Durfor — Sheriff, Yuba County

John Evans — Sheriff, Sierra County

Bill Gore — Sheriff, San Diego County

Curtis Hill — Sheriff, San Benito County

Rod Hoops — Sheriff, San Bernardino County

Sandra Hutchens — Sheriff, Orange County

Mike Kanalakis — Sheriff, Monterey County

Doug Koford — Sheriff, Napa County

Manfred Kollar — Sheriff, El Dorado County

Bill Lutze — Sheriff, Inyo County

Scott Marshall — Sheriff, Colusa County

Margaret Mims — Sheriff, Fresno County

Steve Moore — Sheriff, San Joaquin County

Brian Muller — Sheriff, Mariposa County

Clay Parker — Sheriff, Tehama County

J. Paul Parker — Sheriff, Sutter County

Mark Pazin — Sheriff, Merced County

Gary Philp — Sheriff, Humboldt County

E. G. Prieto — Sheriff, Yolo County

Rick Riggins — Sheriff, Siskiyou County

Keith Royal — Sheriff, Nevada County

Warren Rupf — Sheriff, Contra Costa County

Martin Ryan — Sheriff, Amador County

Tom Sawyer — Retired Sheriff, Merced County

Rick Scholl — Sheriff, Mono County

Stan Sniff — Sheriff, Riverside County

Gary Stanton — Sheriff, Solano County

Steven Warren — Sheriff, Lassen County

Donny Youngblood — Sheriff, Kern County

J. Kirk Andrus — District Attorney, Siskiyou County

Gerald Benito — District Attorney, Shasta County

George Booth — District Attorney, Mono County

Robert Brown — District Attorney, Mariposa County

Dolores Carr — District Attorney, Santa Clara County

Phillip Cline — District Attorney, Tulare County

Steve Cooley — District Attorney, Los Angeles County

Joyce Dudley — District Attorney, Santa Barbara County

Bonnie Dumanis — District Attorney, San Diego County

Elizabeth Egan — District Attorney, Fresno County

Bradford Fenocchio — District Attorney, Placer County

Birgit Fladager — District Attorney, Stanislaus County

Dean Flippo — District Attorney, Monterey County

James Fox — District Attorney, San Mateo County

Michael Harper — District Attorney, Trinity County

Robert Holzapfel — District Attorney, Glenn County

Jacqueline Jackson — Deputy District Attorney, Riverside County

Robert Kochly — District Attorney, Contra Costa County

Gary Lieberstein — District Attorney, Napa County

Arthur Maillet — District Attorney, Inyo County

Patrick McGrath — District Attorney, Yuba County

Cliff Newell — District Attorney, Nevada County

Gilbert Otero — District Attorney, Imperial County

David Paulson — District Attorney, Solano County

John Poyner — District Attorney, Colusa County

Michael Ramos — District Attorney, San Bernardino County

Michael Ramsey — District Attorney, Butte County

Jeff Reisig — District Attorney, Yolo County

Todd Riebe — District Attorney, Amador County

Jan Scully — District Attorney, Sacramento County

Dwayne Stewart — Assistant District Attorney, Glenn County

Gregory Totten — District Attorney, Ventura County

James Anderson — Police Chief, Placentia Police Department

William Bowen — Police Chief, Rio Vista Police Department

Brian Bowles — Police Chief, Yreka Police Department

Joel Bryden — Police Chief, Walnut Creek Police Department

Tom Chapman — Police Chief, Arcata Police Department

Paul Cooper — Police Chief, Claremont Police Department

Jim Copsey — Police Chief, Grover Beach Police Department

John Crombach — Police Chief, Oxnard Police Department

Ronald DePompa — Police Chief, Glendale Police Department

Rick Esteves — Police Chief, Downey Police Department

Louis Fetherolf — Police Chief, Salinas Police Department

Phil Green — Police Chief, Twin Cities Police Authority

Peter Hansen — Police Chief, Redding Police Department

Stanley Henry — Police Chief, Cathedral City Police Department

Rodney Jones — Police Chief, Fontana Police Department

Brian Klier — Interim Police Chief, Sutter Creek Police Department

Mario Krstic — Police Chief, Farmersville Police Department

David Lawton — Police Chief, San Gabriel Police Department

Stephen Lodge — Police Chief, Santa Clara Police Department

Michael McCrary — Police Chief, Wheatland Police Department

Joseph McKeown — Retired Police Chief

Richard Melton — Police Chief, Napa Police Department

Carlos Mestas — Police Chief, Hanford Police Department

Joe Polisar — Police Chief, Garden Grove Police Department

Larry Ralston — Police Captain, Lompoc Police Department

Kim Raney — Police Chief, Covina Police Department

Robert Sanderson — Police Chief, Arcadia Police Department

John Schaefer — Police Chief, San Marino Police Department

Jacqueline Seabrooks — Police Chief, Inglewood Police Department

James Shaw — Police Chief, Escalon Police Department

Mark Siemens — Police Chief, Rocklin Police Department

Steve Smith — Police Chief, Blythe Police Department

Lisa Solomon — Police Chief, Paso Robles Police Department

Thomas Sonoff — Police Chief, Signal Hill Police Department

Craig Steckler — Police Chief, Fremont Police Department

to name a few
http://www.noonproposition19.com

I'm not lying and am pretty sure that I'm not trying to scare anyone.
I'm not a duck.

nor are you a chipmunk.

its a figure of speech

.

 

[Hydrosun]

Dagnabit,

It is pretty par for the course that all the DAs and Sheriffs are there because putting us in the can is their bread and butter.

What would be really cool is if there was a list of DAs and Sheriffs that do support 19.

 

[dagnabit]

Dagnabit,

It is pretty par for the course that all the DAs and Sheriffs are there because putting us in the can is their bread and butter.

What would be really cool is if there was a list of DAs and Sheriffs that do support 19.

his question was answered.

if you sided with the nazis during wwII and said you were for freeing the jews i just would not have believed you.

imho district attorneys, sheriffs, and police chiefs are to the nazis as the jews are to marijuana users.

this is a step forward not some wait and see imaginary bill.
this is not some usurpation written by barbara boxer
this is not some forced taxed upon smokers.

this is simply the next step in the progression toward restoration of human rights.
to stand against it based on some bullshit flexible moral smokescreen is laughable.

 

[dagnabit]

U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein

U.S. Senator Barbara Boxer

Attorney General Jerry Brown and Democratic Candidate for Governor

Republican Candidate for Governor Meg Whitman

San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom

Los Angeles District Attorney and Republican Candidate for Attorney General Steve Cooley

San Francisco District Attorney and Democratic Candidate for Attorney General Kamala Harris

Republican U.S. Senate Candidate Carly Fiorina

Carmelita Garcia — Mayor, City of Pacific Grove

Pedro Gonzalez — Councilmember, City of South San Francisco

Peter Hanley — Board Member, San Mateo Union High School District

Gary Haskin — Councilmember, City of Escalon

Das Williams — Councilmember, City of Santa Barbara

San Mateo Union High School District Board of Trustees
^^^^^
the government you guys say want this as a backdoor way to fill prisons or a spending cash cow are against it.

now these are individuals against it...
Loretta Adarne — Program Coordinator

Bishop, Dr. Ron Allen

Roger Benz

Aaron Bowen — Licensed Vocational Nurse

Paul Chabot — Founder, Coalition for a Drug Free California

Kerry Condon — President, Anaheim Police Association

Bob Cooke — Regional Director, National Narcotic Officers’ Associations’ Coalition

Alexandra Datig

Betty Davis

Larry Davis

Barbara Gordon

Douglas Haas

Diane Hargis — Fraud Investigator, Vacaville Police Department

Nate Holden — California State Senate, retired; Los Angeles City Council, retired

Robert Johnson — Independent Conference Planner

Shaun Keating — Author

Janice Faye Lamb

Linda Lannon

Erica Leary — Parent

Linda Ledesma — Juvenile Justice Coordinator

Jim and Carol Long — Retired Special Investigator

Darlene McKeown

Fred Mershon

Jennifer Mershon

Sean Morris — Associate Professor, Whittier College

Debbie Obregon — Administrative Assistant

Margie O’Hern

William Olson — Commander, Placer Special Investigation Unit

Charlie Parsons — President/CEO, D.A.R.E. America

Barbara Pongilly

Lewis Pongilly

Jim Provenza — Commissioner, Oceanside Police and Fire Commission

Maria Russell — Realtor

Paul Savo

Kristine Smith

Dana Stevens — Public Health Advocate

Ken Strang — Pharmacist

Keith Tadewald

Rebecca Villones — Retired Teacher

Alan Wemple

Elaine Wemple — Owner, Assurance Bookkeeping Service

if you know any of the business these people own or operate i suggest you picket them.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

You must have been joking with that 11 hours BULLSHIT

Out of my three posts, you picked the only one I was joking in... it's a good thing you got it.

is it "propaganda" if it is true?

Yes... but it isn't even true. I do not support continued prohibition. I don't know any of my "allies" on your list... how the hell can you say that anyway? I'm not lying and I know I'm not fear mongering.

It's a pretty steep climb into some pretty stinky mud to say otherwise.

link to the "better bill" please?

Sadly there is no better bill. However, if voting no on this bill would send the message that we don't want it legalized, wouldn't voting yes send the message that we don't want prisoners let free?

You speak of freedom and Nazis and Jews, would you go to make a treaty that didn't let the concentration camps out?

I just see a yes vote as a possible trap. Look under this box... there's freedom under here... come closer... a little closer...

What about fixing the bill we have?

nor are you a chipmunk.

its a figure of speech

But the figure of speech seemingly makes me an ally of the very people I am angry with... not seeing it.

I want people out of prison.

Period.

Spin all you want.. dress up a turkey and call it mustard....

At the end of the day I want what you want.

 

[BigBudBill]

Sadly there is no better bill. However, if voting no on this bill would send the message that we don't want it legalized, wouldn't voting yes send the message that we don't want prisoners let free?

No. It would send the message that we are willing to compromise with non-users for rights we currently do not enjoy.

Each case can be brought back in front of a judge and asked that the sentence to be reduced/dropped etc. It cant be put into law because it must be a case by case review. From what I understand most cases where the defendant would not be guilty under a current law, the charges will be dismissed and the prisoner released. Example- small grow, under 5 x 5, no guns, no other drugs, prisoner may be released by judge.

 

[Hammerhead]

would that show up in a criminal back groung check on your record

 

[BigBudBill]

The lawyer that was being interviewed in the article I read(looking for it and will post when I recall where I read it) did not mention that as I recall. My speculation is that,if a judge did release prisoner, he could order that expunged from record.

 

[Hydrosun]

his question was answered.

if you sided with the nazis during wwII and said you were for freeing the jews i just would not have believed you.

imho district attorneys, sheriffs, and police chiefs are to the nazis as the jews are to marijuana users.

this is a step forward not some wait and see imaginary bill.
this is not some usurpation written by barbara boxer
this is not some forced taxed upon smokers.

this is simply the next step in the progression toward restoration of human rights.
to stand against it based on some bullshit flexible moral smokescreen is laughable.

And if you vote to keep the Jews in a 5x5 cage for the rest of their lives I can see how you'd be proud of yourself.

Must be cool to be so 100% right with anyone else 100% wrong.

 

[FoxxyDoe]

what is taking so long?

I see your point, although it doesn't sound very flexible.

If you add up the no's and the but would rather be voting on a better bill , it looks like the vast majority of Californians are thinking outside your little prop19 box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxxyDoe View Post
I think its reasonable to ask. . why I should vote yes.. other than the movement?
freedom

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxxyDoe View Post
How great are the benefits for you?
freedom

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxxyDoe View Post
How does 19 stop me from going to prison?
makes possession of 1000 lbs of pot legal in my home
makes growing of my own legal in my own home
provides for entrepreneurs like B³ to open a vape lounge
provides for entrepreneurs like me to pay to play in a warehouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxxyDoe View Post
Who's life got ruined that wouldn't have if 19 passed?
thousands over the last 70 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxxyDoe View Post
Who stands to gain the most out of this bill?
the world

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxxyDoe View Post
Oh and.. Why are the no on 19ers "prohibitionist"?
because they support continued prohibition.
because their allies are law enforcement and known prohibitionists
because they use the EXACT same lies and fear tactics that prohibitionists have used for years.
because if it walks like a duck,talks like a duck,tastes like a duck and smells like a duck it probably aint a chipmunk

This is rather vague, not to mention are we talking about prop 19 here or legalization? because I was talking specifically about 19. You sound like your talking more about legalization in general.

..and on a final note,

Must be cool to be so 100% right with anyone else 100% wrong.

 

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

I want to know where the fuck all this moral high ground was when I was out stomping the ground trying to get signatures to impeach our local district attourney and have medical marijuana clubs allowed to operate without local police persecution....

It has been over 3 months we have been going back and forth on this and not one of you anti-19 has brought a single valid argument to the table?

Is 19 perfect ? No.

Is 19 a step forward ? Yes.

Can we pass a better bill in 2012 ? Why cant we pass 19 now and if someone steps up in 2012 like you all claim they will, I would be happy to vote for that as well.

So I ask of you die hard anti 19ers. If 19 is not worse than current law, and leaves it open for you all to pass 'your' version of legalization in 2012, why cant we pass this form of legalization now ?

Would there not be more support from both parties in 2012 if there was a form of legalization on the books already?

Everyone acts like if 19 were passed, it would be the be all end all and that is simply not true. Just like 215 has done alot for the cannabis community but we all knew that sooner or later that someone would bring along a legalization bill.

Did I think it would take 14 years for someone to do it, not a chance. Am I glad to say that 215 opened the door for this. Hell yeah!

But as the old saying go, lets not throw the baby away with the bath water.

19 aint perfect, but it opens alot of doors and maybe with time (just like with 215) it will become the legalization we all hoped for, and if it doesnt, then that means you guys got two years to raise the money and support for more open-ended legalization proposition come 2012.

Now please tell me why I shouldnt vote for 19. I see this as a win / win situation. We lose nothing, but stand to gain alot.

-BhT

 

[Faraway]

So far I only see 714 voters here... why is this?

 

[kmk420kali]

I tried to compile a list of pro's and con's....but being a Stoner, I am sure I have forgotten things--
Let's see if we can get a comprehensive list going--

Pro--
1- Can have unlimited amount at home--
2- Can have an oz on you anywhere--
3- Can grow 25 sq ft garden without worry of arrest--
4- Can have multiple gardens, as long as they are on separate properties--
5- Cultivation for sale...and Sales, will be legal with permit--
6- Many new Cannabis related jobs will be created--
7- Specifically states it leaves Prop 215 untouched--
8- Specifically states it is Amendable--
9- Paves the way for possible Legalization in other States and Countries--

Con--
1- Don't want it to be Taxed--
2- Garden size isn't big enough--
3- Afraid it will override 215--
4- Leaves Property Owners with Rights--
5- Doesn't give give Cannabis the same status as tomatoes--
6- Can't smoke with ppl too young to drink Alcohol--
7- Doesn't bring Bob Marley back from the dead-- (Ok...that one hasn't really been brought up....yet--)

 

[mean mr.mustard]

It's really a question of why is Prop 19 lacking some fundamental points of interest?

The moral high ground would be taking care of the smokers rotting their lives away in a cell.

I would refuse any half-baked bill that ignores those individuals that have paid a high price for the same thing that they are attempting to pass.

Sorry... I just think that's more basic than canopy limits... we've lost a LOT of focus here.

 

[BigBudBill]

It's really a question of why is Prop 19 lacking some fundamental points of interest?

The moral high ground would be taking care of the smokers rotting their lives away in a cell.

I would refuse any half-baked bill that ignores those individuals that have paid a high price for the same thing that they are attempting to pass.

Sorry... I just think that's more basic than canopy limits... we've lost a LOT of focus here.

Can we focus on stopping the bleeding before we start trying to make Eutopia?