JustSumTomatoes
Indicas make dreams happen
Awesome thread! I'll have to keep this one in mind.
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Vintage Mexican, Seed germination and Micro propagation techniques.
- Thread starter Mystic Funk
- Start date
Mystic Funk
Well-known member
Hey! Thank you for sharing that info here. This is can be very useful for someone that wants to go the tissue culture route for popping old seeds.
That makes a lot of sense taking the seed hull off like that.
How do you go about cleaning the seed off before placing it into the medium without killing it?
Peace
Mystic
Sachiel
Active member
Hey Mystic Funk,
I usually sterilize the seeds as follows:
First you soak the seeds for about 12-20 h. You might want to do that at temperatures below 15°C because the seeds should not pop before sterilization!
After that, the seeds will go threw these washing solutions:
1. 70% Ethanol 30 Sec.
2. 400ppm NaDCC-Solution 60-90 Sec.
(NaDCC can be exchanged wit diluted bleach, the solution should however contain about 400ppm clorine)
3. rinse with sterile, distilled water
4. Repeat Step 1-3 again.
After that, I crack the seeds under the sterile workbench and inoculate immediately. If you don`t have one, you can easily build a glovebox and use that for inoculation.
Hope this helps!
Greetings,
Sachiel
I usually sterilize the seeds as follows:
First you soak the seeds for about 12-20 h. You might want to do that at temperatures below 15°C because the seeds should not pop before sterilization!
After that, the seeds will go threw these washing solutions:
1. 70% Ethanol 30 Sec.
2. 400ppm NaDCC-Solution 60-90 Sec.
(NaDCC can be exchanged wit diluted bleach, the solution should however contain about 400ppm clorine)
3. rinse with sterile, distilled water
4. Repeat Step 1-3 again.
After that, I crack the seeds under the sterile workbench and inoculate immediately. If you don`t have one, you can easily build a glovebox and use that for inoculation.
Hope this helps!
Greetings,
Sachiel
M
Mr D
I got one recently and put it use last night.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BrV7EkOhpcx/
I had 18 old Apollo 13 X Skunk #1 seeds I made in 2001. After a Peroxide bath they were all cracked and put in paper towels. I'll give them 24 - 36 hrs. before I start checking them.
Today I'm going to crack some old Neville's Haze F-2 seeds I made in 2000. They will be placed in a soil seed starter mix as per my normal germination method.
I have 100's of old seeds I made in 1999 - 2002 and have been trying for over a year to get a few to germinate. I've tried all these different methods with no success. From what I've seen the worm bin seems to be ticket.
Should be a some great things to find in those nevilles haze f2's you made, hope lots of germinate for you.
The seed crack works well, used for vanilluna seeds and they had no problem after being gently cracked.
The seed crack works well, used for vanilluna seeds and they had no problem after being gently cracked.
AgentPothead
Just this guy, ya know?
If I don't have access to a worm bin, do you guys think worm castings by themselves would help with germination?
I have tried it and failed.
But my seeds aren't old. They have an inbreeding problem so most of them fail to sprout if they are not sown immediately after taking them from the living plant.
AgentPothead
Just this guy, ya know?
Hmm alright. My problem is the age of the seeds I'm pretty sure, but I suppose it never hurts to try. Thanks for info!
Mystic Funk
Well-known member
Hey bud.
I posted a message on you profile but ill say it again here so others can see.
It is obviously best to make your own fresh worm castings but I know that can be difficult to do for some people. I'm sure you can get a decent amount of seeds to pop if you can get some higher quality worm castings in a bag and its also best to find some that haven't been sitting in a bag for a long time because a lot of the beneficial bacteria has died off and they could harbor antirobic bacteria.
Also a lot of major soil and worm casting manufacturers use fillers and low quality food for worms such as peat moss and paper byproducts that have a low nutrient count.
Anyway the fact of the matter is, try and source the best possible products when trying to pop these old and rare seeds because a lot of the time you only get one shot so make it count.
Good luck man and let us know what you find and how it works for you.
Peace
Mystic
frostqueen
Active member
I'm arriving really late to this, but Trout, this is probably the most significant paper I've read in years. It's pretty heavy reading, but the gist of it is that hydrogen peroxide does a hell of a lot more than just sterilize and kill off the nasties we face. It enhances signalling in the seed and creates a 'seed priming' situation that continues afterward in the seedling via 'priming memory'.
I am currently working with seeds from my early days of growing in the late '90s. I will be doing more research to come up with a seed priming technique that in part uses hydrogen peroxide. This paper really is a game changer as far as understanding the mechanisms involved.
Different seeds respond in different ways. I have already worked with a few things that have shown limited success: GA3 works but causes elongation. Finding the sweet spot (under 200ppm in my studies) can be a bit of a pain. After trying other methods this would be a last resort IMO. There are better ways to do it.
Fulvic acid and a single drop or two of Superthrive per gallon can be effective as a pre-soak. I also use an enzymatic sterilizer called Z7. How much fulvic acid can be difficult to translate with all of the different products out there; I'd recommend 10ml of Ful Power per gallon, but must admit that I've never done side-by-side comparisons to be sure that amount is best. (Note: humic acid will not penetrate cell walls the way fulvic acid does, so fulvic is preferred.)
Regarding the worm bin technique. This is well known in the agricultural industry as 'bio-priming'. The microbial activity does more than just defend your seed against nasties; it also signals the seed to activate its metabolism and resume cellular respiration, among many other things. The organisms found in worm bins are indeed also found in bagged earthworm castings, though at lower levels.
Earthworm castings are used in aerated compost teas, and with the right conditions the microherd in teas can easily meet or exceed what is found in worm beds. So those of you who don't want to hassle with worm bins should check out ACT as a great alternative to bins. Just pre-soak the seeds in your ACT.
Beyond that, I would think that truly rare seeds that are unlikely to ever germ should be tissue cultured. I will be diving down that rabbit hole this fall, hopefully, and setting up a small lab. Long-term preservation of strains and hybrids is something I really want to explore.
frostqueen
Active member
This gets into some of the physiological changes that seed priming can initiate. Long-term defenses against salt are mentioned in many studies.
In this case it's folic acid and hydrogen peroxide. Whether or not this would translate to better germ rates for old seeds is unclear. At least it gives us a vague idea how much peroxide we should be using: 15 mm/liter. (That's micromoles. No idea how to convert that to ppm; any chemists here?)
MORPHO- PHYSIOLOGICAL CHANGES OF HEMPSEED (CANNABIS SATIVA L.) TRAITS AS AFFECTED BY SEED PRIMING WITH FOLIC ACID AND HYDROGEN PEROXIDE
And here is some more great information about seed germination.
In this case it's folic acid and hydrogen peroxide. Whether or not this would translate to better germ rates for old seeds is unclear. At least it gives us a vague idea how much peroxide we should be using: 15 mm/liter. (That's micromoles. No idea how to convert that to ppm; any chemists here?)
MORPHO- PHYSIOLOGICAL CHANGES OF HEMPSEED (CANNABIS SATIVA L.) TRAITS AS AFFECTED BY SEED PRIMING WITH FOLIC ACID AND HYDROGEN PEROXIDE
And here is some more great information about seed germination.
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White Beard
Active member
Stunning thread! Ran out of rep around page 10. Thank-you to all posters 
I’m another with a ’legendary bagseed collection’ in hopes of bringing them to life.
I’ve recently dug them out of storage and gone over them: in addition to several airtight containers holding ~1000 each, I have 20 baggies unmarked, and another 12 double-bagged & cryptically labeled (hm2 ‘91, hot green ‘85 a, Belize sativa d, Jamaican sativa a, etc). Individual bags contain anywhere from 2 to 50.
All have been ziplocked since acquisition, the contents were culled before bagging, and they’ve been kept cool and dark since collection.
The oldest marked is ‘85, none are older than ‘82. I’m sharing all this to ask how this rates as storage? Pretty ordinary, I guess. Seeds are all shapes, sizes, patterns and shades, and in visible good condition.
I’ll be re-reading this thread a few more times before I try popping any, but first I’m going down to the bait shop for some wigglers.
I’m another with a ’legendary bagseed collection’ in hopes of bringing them to life.
I’ve recently dug them out of storage and gone over them: in addition to several airtight containers holding ~1000 each, I have 20 baggies unmarked, and another 12 double-bagged & cryptically labeled (hm2 ‘91, hot green ‘85 a, Belize sativa d, Jamaican sativa a, etc). Individual bags contain anywhere from 2 to 50.
All have been ziplocked since acquisition, the contents were culled before bagging, and they’ve been kept cool and dark since collection.
The oldest marked is ‘85, none are older than ‘82. I’m sharing all this to ask how this rates as storage? Pretty ordinary, I guess. Seeds are all shapes, sizes, patterns and shades, and in visible good condition.
I’ll be re-reading this thread a few more times before I try popping any, but first I’m going down to the bait shop for some wigglers.
That’s a shame, lol. I have found memories when I make those finds like that.
Just found a film canister full of seeds hiidden in a drawer and I believe they are Colombian redbud from the 70’s. I know they’re old because if I had found them earlier I would have been trying to sprout them all along. Have to re-visit this thread again.
White Beard
Active member
Are the ziplocks a problem?
I pushed the air out of each little baggie as I loaded them; all the marked baggies went into a larger ziplock, the unmarked into another, as much air removed as I could, and then both went into a metal cashbox. Not ideal, I know, which is why I look for an elbow estimate from the masters...
The culling was of broken, hollow, all-white and half-formed seeds only. I was examining the seeds from one of the little ziplock bags with a magnifying glass last night, they still smell of the old days, and look clean and glossy.
TL;DR = does it make sense *now* to move them to better storage (eg, put popcorn in the individual baggies and put the baggies in a mason jar with desiccant, or...?)?
I pushed the air out of each little baggie as I loaded them; all the marked baggies went into a larger ziplock, the unmarked into another, as much air removed as I could, and then both went into a metal cashbox. Not ideal, I know, which is why I look for an elbow estimate from the masters...
The culling was of broken, hollow, all-white and half-formed seeds only. I was examining the seeds from one of the little ziplock bags with a magnifying glass last night, they still smell of the old days, and look clean and glossy.
TL;DR = does it make sense *now* to move them to better storage (eg, put popcorn in the individual baggies and put the baggies in a mason jar with desiccant, or...?)?
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OldCoolSativa
Well-known member
I hear you about the smell from the old days. My old seed collection smells like the 1970s.
White Beard
Active member
your posts go right to the heart of how all this works. I’ll have them up on the screen as I go through the thread again.
I’ll be taking notes. Thank you!
I’ll be taking notes. Thank you!
Mystic Funk
Well-known member
Are the ziplocks a problem?
I pushed the air out of each little baggie as I loaded them; all the marked baggies went into a larger ziplock, the unmarked into another, as much air removed as I could, and then both went into a metal cashbox. Not ideal, I know, which is why I look for an elbow estimate from the masters...
The culling was of broken, hollow, all-white and half-formed seeds only. I was examining the seeds from one of the little ziplock bags with a magnifying glass last night, they still smell of the old days, and look clean and glossy.
TL;DR = does it make sense *now* to move them to better storage (eg, put popcorn in the individual baggies and put the baggies in a mason jar with desiccant, or...?)?
Ziplocks aren't the best storage method but it will do for awhile. The problem with bags is they're not air tight and will build moisture and then dry out. If this happens many times over the years germination rates suffer.
It's best to get some glass air tight jars and add equal weight of silica to the bottom in a paper or cloth bag so as to not let the silica contact the seeds and over dry them.
Peace
Mystic
White Beard
Active member
Welcome back - and thanks for the response!
I understand the shortcomings as you point them out; in my meager defense, I had no idea at the time that I’d have them for so long...I did at least squeeze the air out of them when I zipped them up, and rolled them in...y’know, at this point, they either *will* pop or they won’t, and if they won’t - oh well.
At the moment, the best I can probably do is to move them into paper coin envelopes, label / seal / tape / fold and seal them in a few amber bottles with some fresh popcorn kernels (little secret from my computer years: rice is a lousy moisture-absorber, popcorn is *much* more effective)...because I HAVE silica gel, but...since the last move, I’d have to go search for them, and that would rouse the house....
UPDATE - I must just live right: 60 poured seeds weigh in @ 0.999g (yeah, me either...)
But I’m all excited again, just thinking about it: as I have easily 1000+ that are differentiated only by their markings, I think I’ll weigh out a gram or so tonight, and keep that out for purely experimental purposes (you know, “SCIENCE!!”)....
I’ll go down to the bait shop for some castings in the morning, and throw a few in there and see what happens...you had some real good results from that, I recall.
This thread has been a huge inspiration to me: read it thru several times, took a bunch of hints, went chasing them, studied (studying) a lot. You’re a star in my book!
How are your rescued rangers doing? I hope you’ll bring the thread up to date on how your seed resurrection is working out!
I understand the shortcomings as you point them out; in my meager defense, I had no idea at the time that I’d have them for so long...I did at least squeeze the air out of them when I zipped them up, and rolled them in...y’know, at this point, they either *will* pop or they won’t, and if they won’t - oh well.
At the moment, the best I can probably do is to move them into paper coin envelopes, label / seal / tape / fold and seal them in a few amber bottles with some fresh popcorn kernels (little secret from my computer years: rice is a lousy moisture-absorber, popcorn is *much* more effective)...because I HAVE silica gel, but...since the last move, I’d have to go search for them, and that would rouse the house....
UPDATE - I must just live right: 60 poured seeds weigh in @ 0.999g (yeah, me either...)
But I’m all excited again, just thinking about it: as I have easily 1000+ that are differentiated only by their markings, I think I’ll weigh out a gram or so tonight, and keep that out for purely experimental purposes (you know, “SCIENCE!!”)....
I’ll go down to the bait shop for some castings in the morning, and throw a few in there and see what happens...you had some real good results from that, I recall.
This thread has been a huge inspiration to me: read it thru several times, took a bunch of hints, went chasing them, studied (studying) a lot. You’re a star in my book!
How are your rescued rangers doing? I hope you’ll bring the thread up to date on how your seed resurrection is working out!
Good luck sir
White Beard
Active member
Thank you, Fishy, I appreciate it! If I can get even 30% to put up healthy sprouts, I’ll be over the moon. Will absolutely report back on results: full details and photos.
Not for the last time, MANY thanks to everyone in the thread - I am truly inspired....
Not for the last time, MANY thanks to everyone in the thread - I am truly inspired....
