Vintage Mexican, Seed germination and Micro propagation techniques.

[moose eater]

Thanks for the effort and attempts, Mystic. Please let me know if the towels show any further life.

Otherwise, I can chalk this up as yet another opportunity for my name in lights, shot to hell once again.... Another of many 'best laid plans of mice and men' moments...And I'm still waiting on Publisher's Clearing House to arrive with that check, too!!

"This too shall pass..."

So, relying mostly on readily available (to the average person) components/amendments, and processes, at this point (acknowledging that you have some more/new efforts in the works at the moment), what would you -currently- say is the most beneficial regimen for success with 'geriatric seeds?'

Thanks again! You've invariably saved most of what remains of the seed collection from ill fate.

Hey Guys!
Ok, its been a little over a week now that i started a few more methods and i have some results for you guys.

all of these recipes were soaked in the "Germination Bomb" seeing that i used a "live" recipe on two of them and i wanted to keep it that way. also i didn't want to skew the results for the others that were not live so all went in the G-bomb.
all the methods used 50 seeds in each...

ok first off with a method i was told about by a friend of mine here that goes by Growingcrazy. he told me about taking some seeds and putting them in a cut piece of aloe to soak and you'd get some good germ rates.
i took this method and changed it slightly by making a aloe solution by squeezing out a cup of fresh aloe from a plant i have and putting that in one gallon of water and adding a little B1 vitamins and bubbling them in the G-bomb for 24 hours.
this method did the best and 12 seeds popped!

second method i took some lactobacillus or (LABS) i made and mixed that with 2oz per gallon of water and bubbled that for 24 hours.
i got 10 seeds to pop with this method!
if you'd like to make some LABS, i can show you if you want. it's very easy to make. if you don't want to make it. you can buy EM-1 for cheap which is has LABS in it.

third was i took the runoff from the worm bins which is also rich with microbes, humic and fulvic acids which help with old seeds to pop. we saw this before by putting them right in the bin in a earlier post.
i then took a gallon of the runoff and added that to 5 gallons water and then made a compost brew by adding some chicken manure to a sock and bubbled that for 5 days.
i took one cup of the runoff/compost tea and put that in one gallon of water and bubbled it for 24 hours in the G-bomb with the seeds.
i got 10 seeds to pop with this method!
i'd like to try this one again by only adding the runoff to the mix without the manure tea. i think this may have been too rich for the seeds? anyway, it worked just as good as the LABS mix.


fourth method was made up by moose eater. this will be called the "moose method" for now on.

here's his words on how to make it and the only thing i changed was putting the seeds right into the dirt after the G-bomb soak. i didn't want to do this because i soaked 50 seeds of each and i didn't want to waste or tie up 50 solo cups for each method and i wanted each method to be the same as far as medium goes. so these seeds were placed in paper towels like the rest.

Moose Method
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I'm thinking the first step would be scuffing, very gently along the ridge of the seed's husk/shell. Maybe a fine grit emery paper?

Then the H2O2 3% (diluted 1:10 with distilled H2O) bath for 3-4 hours.

Then a weak GA-3 solution at 50 ppm with distilled H2O (as in, very light) with a couple drops of Super Thrive Vitamin B, either over-night, or ~12 hours..

Then the bubbler as described in the recent post

Then a -very- light (minimal) dusting, like a wisp of powder of Hormex, Clonex, Rootone, or other half-decent rooting powder on either a damp paper towel, or in the immediate area around the planted seed in a soilless sprouting mix such as earth worm castings with Pro-Mix, etc.

with this method i got only 3 seeds to pop. but it's only been about a week and they might need more time. so the rest of the seeds with be kept in the towel for at least another week.


peace!
-mystic
[/FONT]

 

[Mystic Funk]

Thanks for the effort and attempts, Mystic. Please let me know if the towels show any further life.

Otherwise, I can chalk this up as yet another opportunity for my name in lights, shot to hell once again.... Another of many 'best laid plans of mice and men' moments...And I'm still waiting on Publisher's Clearing House to arrive with that check, too!!

"This too shall pass..."

So, relying mostly on readily available (to the average person) components/amendments, and processes, at this point (acknowledging that you have some more/new efforts in the works at the moment), what would you -currently- say is the most beneficial regimen for success with 'geriatric seeds?'

Thanks again! You've invariably saved most of what remains of the seed collection from ill fate.

hey moose!
don't chalk it up as a loss just yet. it can always be tweaked a little to make it more effective. so the moose method may live on..


as far as the best germ method goes, i'd have to say the worm bins but that may not be the best for everyone that wants to pop old seeds.
so i don't exactly have a clear winner here, but i've noticed a trend with the methods i've tried so far and it seems like the methods using a "live" solution or live medium seems to pop the most seeds.
it seems these microbes and or enzymes are not only helping to bring new life to the seeds quickly but their also protecting the fragile seed sprouts from invaders such as black mold or damping rot.
it also seems the methods that require cleaning or sterilizing seeds do the worst and always seems to get some funky shit growing on them in no time.


peace!
-mystic

 

[Mystic Funk]

I was around 75, and bumped it up to 77f. I did have the sponges just barely damp, and got impatient after 2 days of nothing happening. Added a bit of tap water and got quite a bit of action on my other seeds. But a lot of that brown dying off to. I probably got to impatient with the temp n moisture. First time trying it out. Ive got some in paper towels now. I didn't flush the sponges either. Ill try that for next time. I will update in the Item 9 thread. Thanks bud. Ill be getting ahold of you here soon.

i have found that germinating seeds over 75F will make them rot faster or not sprout at all. most people say it's ok or you should germ over 75F but i've not had good results with it myself and i pop over a thousand beans a year....
if the seeds are fresh or less than 5 years old and stored well, all you need is some wet paper towels to get them to pop.

with fresh seeds i just soak them in some ph'd water that's 6.3 to 6.5 over night and then drop them in the moist paper towels that are on a clean plate and leave them at room temp (70F) and in two to three days you should get some tails popping out. some sativas take a little longer to pop, like a week.

yeah, you must wash the sponges well before using them for seed popping. i'd take those and wash them well with hot soapy water and then rinse well with fresh water to get any soap out each time you use them.



peace!
-mystic

 

[moose eater]

Thanks Mystic!!

If I have worms shipped up once we reach safe traveling temps for them, to start some bins in stacked buckets, it'll be a while until I have sufficient production to have anything for the gardens, but maybe just enough of them much earlier to have some for germination purposes.

Meanwhile, the two most premium worm castings up here thus far offer no mineral analysis, and after reading a bit in a couple other threads, it's apparent that many store-bought castings actually have such high iron, etc., that they're toxic. In those cases, if I want to experiment with germ rates in castings (albeit imported-to-Alaska castings from the Lower-48), I can either use the not-so reliable 'eye-ball assessment,' or some other gut-sense of things. That, or send out a number of samples for analysis over time, acknowledging that sources/batches change, sometimes as readily as every other batch, to one degree or another.

On the bright side, I guess I could become fairly popular with the soil testing lab(s).

So at the moment, I've got various vitamin B sources, imported worm castings, mycos, bokashi bran, amino acids, GA-3, growth hormones, and some enzymes to play with, as well as an older aquarium air pump and extra air line that's not in use at the moment.. and plenty of prospective containers... and aquarium/food-grade silicone adhesive/sealant.

So a path exists, but I think that not knowing the mineral content of my castings, I may try some of the lesser valuable Copper Basin Sativa x Ruderalis seeds first... Less heartache or desperation that way.

Thanks again!!

 

[Mystic Funk]

Thanks Mystic!!

If I have worms shipped up once we reach safe traveling temps for them, to start some bins in stacked buckets, it'll be a while until I have sufficient production to have anything for the gardens, but maybe just enough of them much earlier to have some for germination purposes.

Meanwhile, the two most premium worm castings up here thus far offer no mineral analysis, and after reading a bit in a couple other threads, it's apparent that many store-bought castings actually have such high iron, etc., that they're toxic. In those cases, if I want to experiment with germ rates in castings (albeit imported-to-Alaska castings from the Lower-48), I can either use the not-so reliable 'eye-ball assessment,' or some other gut-sense of things. That, or send out a number of samples for analysis over time, acknowledging that sources/batches change, sometimes as readily as every other batch, to one degree or another.

On the bright side, I guess I could become fairly popular with the soil testing lab(s).

So at the moment, I've got various vitamin B sources, imported worm castings, mycos, bokashi bran, amino acids, GA-3, growth hormones, and some enzymes to play with, as well as an older aquarium air pump and extra air line that's not in use at the moment.. and plenty of prospective containers... and aquarium/food-grade silicone adhesive/sealant.

So a path exists, but I think that not knowing the mineral content of my castings, I may try some of the lesser valuable Copper Basin Sativa x Ruderalis seeds first... Less heartache or desperation that way.

Thanks again!!

hey moose!
i've updated the last germination test post.
i got one more to pop with the moose method and also 3 more popped with the compost method and one more with the aloe method.


if i were you, i'd mix some of the bokashi bran with those worm castings and peat moss and a little perlite to make a super soil seedling mix or just let it cook and take some of the runoff water and soak your old seeds in it and once they pop, plant them in that mix.

or if you just want to make a easy method i know works well, you can cut a little aloe plant and mix it with B1 in water like i did.



peace!
-mystic

 

[RedDirtWarrior]

Moose Method
I'm thinking the first step would be scuffing, very gently along the ridge of the seed's husk/shell. Maybe a fine grit emery paper?

Then the H2O2 3% (diluted 1:10 with distilled H2O) bath for 3-4 hours.

Then a weak GA-3 solution at 50 ppm with distilled H2O (as in, very light) with a couple drops of Super Thrive Vitamin B, either over-night, or ~12 hours..

Then the bubbler as described in the recent post

Then a -very- light (minimal) dusting, like a wisp of powder of Hormex, Clonex, Rootone, or other half-decent rooting powder on either a damp paper towel, or in the immediate area around the planted seed in a soilless sprouting mix such as earth worm castings with Pro-Mix, etc.

I'd add to moose method an h202 soak before scuffing (you'll scuff bacteria on the seeds and sandpaper right into the shell if its not disinfected first. So disinfect the sandpaper beforehand too and another soak after scuffing for good measure.

Look into how mushrooms are grown for good sterility practice. The best bet would be to get the seed in a sealed container without ANY bacteria/fungus at all using sterile practices to give it max time to germ without any interference.

Also add a very tiny bit of soap to the soak water to act as a surfactant.

 

[growingcrazy]

Very happy to see those results!

I really like aloe for starting old seeds.

Will have some BubbaDub and #9 photos coming your way in the next couple months...

 

[moose eater]

Thanks again, Mystic!!

Keep the good news coming. 4 live ones is 4 more than I got the last time I tried, during which I think I scuffed the seeds, then just did an over-night soak in a small glass of water with 1 drop of bleach, and most of them on a damp paper towel on a clean coffee saucer, wrapped in a plastic baggy.

Those achieved some mold on them, though if I recall correctly, I got a couple tails to show before they all died ugly deaths via rot.

Just got my boxes cleaned out, and transplanted my prized mothers into a more reasonable soil to reduce the irritation they were clearly feeling toward me. Though Ghost Train Haze #1 seems to have turned her anger into depression, and could probably use a Prozac about now... by the looks of her.

If the weather lets up some, and I can make my trip into Los Anchorage, I can restock on worm castings, and get a newer (to me) castings product that reads pretty well. Proof's in the pudding, though.

And my current batch of bokashi bran seems to have developed the prettiest snow-white mold on it I've seen since growing mushrooms. Guess I need to replace that, as well, and practice a bit better refrigeration with it in the future.

In short, as I get the more urgent chores and projects laid to the side, one by one, I can move back toward doing something like what you've referenced.

I'll pick up a small aloe plant some place, to have some sap to use for the seeds. Been a long time since I had one here.

Thanks again!!

-----------------------------------------

hey moose!
i've updated the last germination test post.
i got one more to pop with the moose method and also 3 more popped with the compost method and one more with the aloe method.


if i were you, i'd mix some of the bokashi bran with those worm castings and peat moss and a little perlite to make a super soil seedling mix or just let it cook and take some of the runoff water and soak your old seeds in it and once they pop, plant them in that mix.

or if you just want to make a easy method i know works well, you can cut a little aloe plant and mix it with B1 in water like i did.



peace!
-mystic

 

[moose eater]

Thanks, RDW. I've done a fair number of successful goes at 'shrooming, and have pretty much always been conscientious about preventing contamination re. fungus crops, but haven't employed the same degree of caution with cannabis seeds.

I suspect I can take a light bleach solution in a hand spray bottle, and mist the sand paper or emery cloth, as well as a sterile soak for the seeds, along with B-1 and aloe, all done in a bubbler (seed bomb).

Probably take Mystic's most recent recommendation re. castings, aloe, bokashi, peat, perlite etc., and give that a toss; again, starting with the Copper River Basin sativa x ruderalis as a matter of using proverbial 'guinea pigs' that hold less value for me.

Thanks for the input, and thank you again to Mystic for his mentoring and patient experimentation in this thread.

I'd add to moose method an h202 soak before scuffing (you'll scuff bacteria on the seeds and sandpaper right into the shell if its not disinfected first. So disinfect the sandpaper beforehand too and another soak after scuffing for good measure.

Look into how mushrooms are grown for good sterility practice. The best bet would be to get the seed in a sealed container without ANY bacteria/fungus at all using sterile practices to give it max time to germ without any interference.

Also add a very tiny bit of soap to the soak water to act as a surfactant.

 

[TexasTea]

Great results and very interesting.

Mystic, if you read the entire organic living soil thread part 1 which I did this winter, there are a bunch more ideas in there and some insights as to why some things were working for you. It's 789 pages long but I will give you some highlights...

Clackamas Coot went on and on about aloe. It contains saponins which aid in nutrient absorption apparently and also may protect against fungal infection. Many people report beneficial effects in foliar or soil feeding and it has seemed helpful to me as well.

Second on Coot's list is malted barley because it contains so many enzymes and plant hormones. If you can get some ground malted barley from you local beer brew store that would be worth trying in an aerated tea. Method two would be to buy some barley seed, sprout in jar then brew an aerated tea using the sprouted live seeds and various other inputs such as the ones you previously have used.

Lastly, there are many good threads on aerated compost teas. I think you are on the right track with your worm bin run off but I would not go longer than 24 hours because you may lose out on some microbes as diversity has been shown to drastically decrease with longer brew sessions.

 

[TexasTea]

Here is the tea I would try:

1 gallon of water
1 tablespoon worm leachate
1 tablespoon fresh castings from your bin
1\8 cup freshly sprouted barley seed
1 tablespoon ground malted barley
Pinch of kelp, comfrey, alfalfa meals

I would go 24 hours with this mix free circulating and your seeds in mesh bag then try sticking in your organic soil mix, and make sure you have a couple of live worms in your pots.

 

[Mystic Funk]

Great results and very interesting.

Mystic, if you read the entire organic living soil thread part 1 which I did this winter, there are a bunch more ideas in there and some insights as to why some things were working for you. It's 789 pages long but I will give you some highlights...

Clackamas Coot went on and on about aloe. It contains saponins which aid in nutrient absorption apparently and also may protect against fungal infection. Many people report beneficial effects in foliar or soil feeding and it has seemed helpful to me as well.

Second on Coot's list is malted barley because it contains so many enzymes and plant hormones. If you can get some ground malted barley from you local beer brew store that would be worth trying in an aerated tea. Method two would be to buy some barley seed, sprout in jar then brew an aerated tea using the sprouted live seeds and various other inputs such as the ones you previously have used.

Lastly, there are many good threads on aerated compost teas. I think you are on the right track with your worm bin run off but I would not go longer than 24 hours because you may lose out on some microbes as diversity has been shown to drastically decrease with longer brew sessions.

Here is the tea I would try:

1 gallon of water
1 tablespoon worm leachate
1 tablespoon fresh castings from your bin
1\8 cup freshly sprouted barley seed
1 tablespoon ground malted barley
Pinch of kelp, comfrey, alfalfa meals

I would go 24 hours with this mix free circulating and your seeds in mesh bag then try sticking in your organic soil mix, and make sure you have a couple of live worms in your pots.

Hey TexasTea!
thank you very much for the info and i'll have to check out that thread too.
i will have to give this recipe a go, once i get some of the supplies and i free up some space.


peace!
-mystic

 

[Columbo1]

Not sure if I missed but how did the vintage mex turn out?

Also I was high one day and thinking what would happen if we got a bunch of fresh viable seeds and germinated them together in a cotton ball with old seed. Would the hormones diffuse from the new and help the old germ if they're close enough proximity? Any tried or thought of this before?

 

[Weird]

great thread, have been following it for a while but have some questions.

your latest experiment you tried 4 methods that went into the germination bomb first for 24 hours

previously you tried a variety of germ bomb recipes which all had a different combination of things like b1 and b12

the question I have is what specific germ bomb formula are you using for the last experiment? and also are you using thrive alive for b1? and what source are you using for b-12.

i have worm bins and I grow aloe but I have thousands of seeds from the past 30 years or so some of which I want to put in the germ bomb before I put them in the worm bins (low seed count and hard to germinate from specific heirloom strains) for a best of methodology so I wanted to use germ bomb methods with dsmo and b12 in the germ bomb since it was reported as given best results before hand, then perhaps coating with a lil fresh aloe gel and put into the worm bin

I woul be grateful for any input ty in advance

 

[Mystic Funk]

Not sure if I missed but how did the vintage mex turn out?

Also I was high one day and thinking what would happen if we got a bunch of fresh viable seeds and germinated them together in a cotton ball with old seed. Would the hormones diffuse from the new and help the old germ if they're close enough proximity? Any tried or thought of this before?

hey Columbo!
i haven't tried this yet with sprouting enzymes but i hear people use barley and or alfalfa sprouts to kick start stubborn seeds.
what you would do is put a bunch of barley or alfalfa seeds in water and sprout them, then remove them once they sprout and use that water to soak you old seeds in.
i'll have to give this a go sometime for you guys and see if it really works.


peace!
-mystic

 

[Mystic Funk]

great thread, have been following it for a while but have some questions.

your latest experiment you tried 4 methods that went into the germination bomb first for 24 hours

previously you tried a variety of germ bomb recipes which all had a different combination of things like b1 and b12

the question I have is what specific germ bomb formula are you using for the last experiment? and also are you using thrive alive for b1? and what source are you using for b-12.

i have worm bins and I grow aloe but I have thousands of seeds from the past 30 years or so some of which I want to put in the germ bomb before I put them in the worm bins (low seed count and hard to germinate from specific heirloom strains) for a best of methodology so I wanted to use germ bomb methods with dsmo and b12 in the germ bomb since it was reported as given best results before hand, then perhaps coating with a lil fresh aloe gel and put into the worm bin

I woul be grateful for any input ty in advance

hey Weird! thank you!
the B-1 i used is tissue culture grade that is very concentrated and it's in a liquid form. the B-12 was a heath food supplement i got at the store because B-12 is not normally used with plants but i did learn that plants do take the vitamin up but it is not quite known for what or why the plant does this other than it being contained in plant milks.

so anyway, if you get some b-12 pills at the store just make sure they are pure b12 and not cut with anything. take one and dissolve it in a gallon of water and use that stock solution for feedings or seed sprouting. (i wouldn't use more then two pills per gallon of water) they are strong!

the last method i did that used the germination bomb i did four different ones. one was with aloe and b-1 which did the best. one used home made LABS which also did very well. third was a worm compost juice method that did as good as the labs and the moose method.
these were all bubbled in the germ bomb for 24 hours and placed in clean paper towels with fresh water to sprout...

the previous germ bomb methods with DMSO didn't do as well as these did above for me.


here's the recipes for the best germ bombs so far:


Originally Posted by Mystic Funk
Hey Guys!
Ok, its been a little over a week now that i started a few more methods and i have some results for you guys.

all of these recipes were soaked in the "Germination Bomb" seeing that i used a "live" recipe on two of them and i wanted to keep it that way. also i didn't want to skew the results for the others that were not live so all went in the G-bomb.
all the methods used 50 seeds in each...

ok first off with a method i was told about by a friend of mine here that goes by Growingcrazy. he told me about taking some seeds and putting them in a cut piece of aloe to soak and you'd get some good germ rates.
i took this method and changed it slightly by making a aloe solution by squeezing out a cup of fresh aloe from a plant i have and putting that in one gallon of water and adding a little B1 vitamins and bubbling them in the G-bomb for 24 hours.
this method did the best and 12 seeds popped!

second method i took some lactobacillus or (LABS) i made and mixed that with 2oz per gallon of water and bubbled that for 24 hours.
i got 10 seeds to pop with this method!
if you'd like to make some LABS, i can show you if you want. it's very easy to make. if you don't want to make it. you can buy EM-1 for cheap which is has LABS in it.

third was i took the runoff from the worm bins which is also rich with microbes, humic and fulvic acids which help with old seeds to pop. we saw this before by putting them right in the bin in a earlier post.
i then took a gallon of the runoff and added that to 5 gallons water and then made a compost brew by adding some chicken manure to a sock and bubbled that for 5 days.
i took one cup of the runoff/compost tea and put that in one gallon of water and bubbled it for 24 hours in the G-bomb with the seeds.
i got 10 seeds to pop with this method!
i'd like to try this one again by only adding the runoff to the mix without the manure tea. i think this may have been too rich for the seeds? anyway, it worked just as good as the LABS mix.


fourth method was made up by moose eater. this will be called the "moose method" for now on.

here's his words on how to make it and the only thing i changed was putting the seeds right into the dirt after the G-bomb soak. i didn't want to do this because i soaked 50 seeds of each and i didn't want to waste or tie up 50 solo cups for each method and i wanted each method to be the same as far as medium goes. so these seeds were placed in paper towels like the rest.

Moose Method
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I'm thinking the first step would be scuffing, very gently along the ridge of the seed's husk/shell. Maybe a fine grit emery paper?

Then the H2O2 3% (diluted 1:10 with distilled H2O) bath for 3-4 hours.

Then a weak GA-3 solution at 50 ppm with distilled H2O (as in, very light) with a couple drops of Super Thrive Vitamin B, either over-night, or ~12 hours..

Then the bubbler as described in the recent post

Then a -very- light (minimal) dusting, like a wisp of powder of Hormex, Clonex, Rootone, or other half-decent rooting powder on either a damp paper towel, or in the immediate area around the planted seed in a soilless sprouting mix such as earth worm castings with Pro-Mix, etc.

with this method i got only 3 seeds to pop. but it's only been about a week and they might need more time. so the rest of the seeds with be kept in the towel for at least another week.


peace!
-mystic

[/FONT]


let me know if i missed anything or you have other questions!

 

[moose eater]

Hey mystic!

Thanks for the replies, as each one of them often clarifies something from previous posts.

As far as the lactobacillus is concerned, I believe I have some of this in a food-grade source for sausage making (for fermented, dried, cold-smoked sausages, like landjaeger, traditional salamis, etc.).

Is this apt to be an acceptable source and variety of this stuff?

 

[RedDirtWarrior]

hey Columbo!
i haven't tried this yet with sprouting enzymes but i hear people use barley and or alfalfa sprouts to kick start stubborn seeds.
what you would do is put a bunch of barley or alfalfa seeds in water and sprout them, then remove them once they sprout and use that water to soak you old seeds in.
i'll have to give this a go sometime for you guys and see if it really works.


peace!
-mystic

I know for a fact that using twice steeped (or more) Tea works great for germinating seeds.

 

[Stickybred420]

don't know if it was mentioned but ga3 (gibberellic acid) is a good tool to use to get old seeds to pop. I saw it on you tube. the test was with 3 different concentrations and it was determined that 100 to 250 ppm in ro water is sufficient. up to 250 can be used but they said 100 is fine. it was vaderog's channel if anyone wants to check it out.

 

[hoki2test]

karrikinolides

karrikinolides

Australian researchers have shown that a group of chemicals contained in smoke named karrikinolides are extremely potent germination stimulators active in parts per trillion,these chemicals that naturally occur in smoke from the burning of bush materials.



http://herbalistics.com.au/product/smoke-treatment/