Very high CBD strains, which ones?

[Gert Lush]

One way that THC antagonists show themselves is in the duration of effect of the THC. The onset of effects take a little longer and the high lasts longer.
Onset delay of about 15-20 min. and duration of as much as four hours vs 1.5 without.

Think creeper weed.

So in this sense, something being a THC "antagonist" is a good thing, yes? Regardless of whether that substance is CBD or THCV as pops suggests below.

Which could mean that several strains in circulation contain this antagonist, most of the stuff I grow is seriously creeper. Now, if CBD is causing the creeper effect, as you suggest, how can we say that none of the modern strains have significant CBD?

In any case that statement sounds extreme to me, especially when something as abstract as "western breeding" gets blamed. What's that supposed to mean??? Seems like the usual stoner paranoia / love of conspiracy theories coming into play. I mean there are hundreds of Afghans, Pakis and Indians on the market, and more coming in all the time!
Are you seriously suggesting that the.... "Dutch" (ROFLMAO) are sitting there waiting to select out anything with CBD because it would make weed too creeper? Sounds daft, no?

In fact if CBD enhances the experience of the smoke, you'd think people would select for it, as a nice smoke will make for more customers. It is evident from these pages that lots of people want a nice mellow anxiety-free smoke, I bet a lot more than those after hyped supposedly-high-THC stuff.

 

[Pops]

This, is really a good thread, pops, your project is very interesting, a lot of people needs help and an other way to medicate, i hope you will find what you want/need, i live in france, in the region i was born, there is a lot of hemp fields, the seeds are very controled but i feel if you go to certain hemp productor and ask them a 100+ seeds, they will not refuse...you know some hemp productors are ganja smokers and maybe more...i really askinf if cross drug strain with hemp strain will be interesting, maybe its good to keep a high thc levels too no ? just asking, not critize fellows.... we have so much told and told me again hemp is not good for smoking.....

Smoking hemp is very harsh and creates a sore throat and a headache. Very likely that is because it does not have the same combination of cannabinoids and terpenes as does a drug strain. I believe that you are correct that a hemp strain can be combined with a drug strain to get the type of cannabinoid ratio we are seeking. However, taste may be severely lacking. I plan on making an alcohol tincture of it and having my son drink some everyday, mixed in with a strong tasting juice. We may have to experiment with several crosses and some back crosses to get what we want. When you really do not know what the Hell you are doing, nothing is easy!

 

[Pops]

So in this sense, something being a THC "antagonist" is a good thing, yes? Regardless of whether that substance is CBD or THCV as pops suggests below.

Which could mean that several strains in circulation contain this antagonist, most of the stuff I grow is seriously creeper. Now, if CBD is causing the creeper effect, as you suggest, how can we say that none of the modern strains have significant CBD?

In any case that statement sounds extreme to me, especially when something as abstract as "western breeding" gets blamed. What's that supposed to mean??? Seems like the usual stoner paranoia / love of conspiracy theories coming into play. I mean there are hundreds of Afghans, Pakis and Indians on the market, and more coming in all the time!
Are you seriously suggesting that the.... "Dutch" (ROFLMAO) are sitting there waiting to select out anything with CBD because it would make weed too creeper? Sounds daft, no?

In fact if CBD enhances the experience of the smoke, you'd think people would select for it, as a nice smoke will make for more customers. It is evident from these pages that lots of people want a nice mellow anxiety-free smoke, I bet a lot more than those after hyped supposedly-high-THC stuff.

The vast majority of pot is bred for stoners who want to get high as quckly as possible and as thoroughly as possible. If you have a total cannabinoid level of 20% and THC makes up 8% and CBD makes up 8%, you simply get rid of the CBD in hopes of having a strain that is now 16%THC. No conspiracy theory there(nor did aliens have anything to do with it). The majority of land race hash strains(Afghan,Paki,Lebanese,Moroccan,etc) will contain 25% pure THC plants, 50% mixed THC/CBD plants and 25% CBD plants. When ou collect all the resin and make hash, you get a mix that is 50% THC and 50% CBD. Few(if any) of these growers make any selection based on cannabinoid content. If anything, they would make selection based on growth patterns and total resin content. Only professional pot breeders(Dutch, American,Canadian etc) actively select against the Bd allele and for the Bt allele. They know what THC does and select for it. they do not,in most cases, consider the medical need of patients, as they do not know the properties of CBD. If it won't get you stoned, they don't want or need it. Some of us sick folks do, so we are going the other way. Someday, there will be lots of folks breeding for medicinal qualities. Unfortunately, it is not happening yet on a large scale.

 

[Dragor]

THCV is a CB1 antagonist that slows the removal of THC from the system and prolongs the effects. CBD,if taken before smoking THC, will negate the effect of THC and moderate or change it if taken at the same time. Experienced smokers who have smoked hash can tell the "dirty" high that comes from a combo of THC and CBD, but most of us yanks who never get that stuff would have a problem telling. The best bet is to find a BdBd strain which will not get you high and use that as the basis of a breeding program.

Hrmm maybe CBD and THC fight for the same receptors and so it takes longer to feel the real effects (creeper) on the CB1 receptors when its mixed CBD/THC profile (aka "dirty" as you said Pops) - and that CBD is not subject to the same breakdown from its receptor (long lasting) when the endocannabinoid enzymes attack it? Is this what's going on at the cellular level?

 

[elmanito]

Smoking hemp is very harsh and creates a sore throat and a headache. Very likely that is because it does not have the same combination of cannabinoids and terpenes as does a drug strain. I believe that you are correct that a hemp strain can be combined with a drug strain to get the type of cannabinoid ratio we are seeking. However, taste may be severely lacking. I plan on making an alcohol tincture of it and having my son drink some everyday, mixed in with a strong tasting juice. We may have to experiment with several crosses and some back crosses to get what we want. When you really do not know what the Hell you are doing, nothing is easy!

I have smoked Red Dawn in the past.This strain is a parent of the Finola-strain with low THC and higher CBD-content.I used this strain for my bronchitis.It didn't give me a headache or sore throat, it was rather nice smoking.Taking a high CBD strain gives you more relaxation.THCV in a strain you can notice by decreasing your appetite, while THC increase your appetite.Different aromas have also an effect on the marijuana and yourself.
Tincture of Cannabis contains more Cannabinoids in the acid-structure, unless you heat the tincture a bit.I made tinctures in the past and still have some samples.

Namaste

 

[Pops]

I agree,El Manito, that you will have more THCA and CBDA if you don't heat it. I plan on cooking off some of the alcohol and converting the acids to THC and CBD.Nice to hear that some hemp strains won't be such a bad smoke. I wish we could get some of them here in the States, but our government is so anal about anything concerning hemp. It is basically up to the rest of the world to do the truly important research that we should be doing. Thanks for the info! I know that different terpenes affect the way that THC affects your body. Myrcene and linalool make for a heavier stone while pinene and limonene a lighter one.

Dragor, if you think of the CB1 receptor as a USB port, you can either plug in THC or CBD. If CBD goes first, there is no room for the THC to affect the CB1 receptor. One of the new synthetic cannabinoids used for weight loss is an inverse agonist. That means that it turns off the CB1 receptor. Since endocannabinoids control all our body functions, that would be dangerous.

 

[Nerd_Weed]

Hey pops, nice to see other people are looking for the CBD.

From what i know its not correct at the moment to tell CBD binds or that CBD don't bind CB receptors... there are conflicting results telling it binds and that it does not bind CB1 or CB2. Does anyone know what is the now consensus ?

For me, 50/50 or 100% cbd will not be enough. I'm a Bipolar patient and i have smoke Colombian brick weed(supposed to be landrace, but now is unknown) until i started growing. All my depression and maniac crisis were stabilized on those weeds... but when i saw a Brazilian study using pure CBD extract on mania having no significant effect alone, but enhance olanzapine(psychotropic) when mixed... from my personal experiences and from what i have heard of sativex, you need at least a slightly higher THC than CBD... So if i was you, i would probably look for a more 70:30 or 60:40 on THC:CBD ratio.

Do you know if the Cannalytics can measure the % of CBD ? or even does it have a way to compare the size or color of the CBD circle with the THC circle ?

If it interest you, here is an UK website that have the small kit for like 50 euros cheaper(98 pounds).. http://www.paradox.co.uk/acatalog/Cannalyse-Fingerprint-THC-Test-Kit.html

 

[Pops]

Nerd, the test kit from Paradox is only a 10 tests kit and I need many more. I imagine you have read this Brazilian study that suggests using cannabis for schizophrenia,anxiety and possibly bipolar disease.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-879X2006000400001&script=sci_arttext

I believe that they used a 2x CBD to 1x THC ratio. Sativex is 50/50. Dr. mechoulam, who discovered THC says he believes a 3 to 1 ratio of CBD to THC is best, but I would think that different conditions will need different ratios.

CBD does not have a true affinity for either the CB1 or CB2 receptor. It is an antagonist at CB1. They do not truly know at this time how the body uses it. The CB2 receptor is mostly for the immune system and CBD is immunomodulatory, so I would suspect that there is some action through the CB2 receptor. Recently a new receptor was found and I would imagine that more will be found as research continues.

Yes, cannalytics can measure the approximate % of THC and CBd. There is a color chart that shows % compared to size of the spot. you can see it in the test kit here.
http://www.cannalytics.nl/

 

[FirstTracks]

there is just so much great info in this thread. Just want to thank all who have contributed so far. I'm sure I'll have more questions once the breeding program has started in 4-8 months, but for now, i'm just absorbing information so I can use this plant to help others in the future

 

[Pops]

Due to my sons disease, I have been studying the effects of cannabinoid for 2 years now and collecting seeds for a year. I am really happy to see so many other people who see the benefit of using all the cannabinoids that the plant has to offer us. For the past year that I have been extolling the virtues of CBD, I have felt like a lonely hermit preaching a weird gospel out in the desert. Glad to see that there are other nuts in the world.

 

[Nerd_Weed]

pops, that study was the first cientific fact that i found to support my personal experience. But actually, they didn't try THC as a medicine. I'm from Brazil and i bought a book from "those guys"... They recently released a study with 2 Bipolar patients treated with CBD while on mania epsode: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18801823

I guess from what i read from those guys in a MedCanna Symposium(got the book of it) they use synthetic cannabinoids. Its funny because they are from a "un-human" city, São Paulo, somehow like NY.. and in Rio de Janeiro(beaches, natural beauty) is studying the use of in natura cannabis to treat pain.. like the culture of the city influences the cientific culture.

As a Bipolar I need both energetic for depression and relaxation for mania. Some times, depending on the weed, energetic or relaxing(specially when i use to buy) It doesn't "fix" my current epsode, but make it much more easy to "get out" of it... like i would not feel the epsode as intense as they are so i can with my rationality get better. It's kind of hard to give all that credit do CBD, I mean, If the brick weed(don't even know if its colombia, paraguay..) i used to smoke was a "skunk" it would probably lack CBD and i may associate the relaxation with CBN... I have to admit that the CBD and CBN interaction with THC are similar, and so i don't want to remove THC from my weed now... maybe a looong cure to enhance relaxation with CBN. I really wish to know what was the THC and CBD % from those samples... but from what i hear, the weed police sent to test was less then 3% THC.. maybe thats only because the dealers buy it when is already old and rotted. So it's hard for me to say wich was best for me, that's why i think a little more THC will be best in my case...

Hope i have not bored you.

 

[guest]

It seems that an ideal solution would be to have two or three extractions that could be mixed in ratios taylored to the needs of the consumer.

 

[elmanito]

You mean an extraction for THC, an extraction for CBD and an extraction for CBN.For THC & CBN is simple, but only for CBD will be difficult if you don' t have a strain with a high % of CBD.The method you are talking is also applied by GW Pharmaceutical with Sativex, but it is an option.

@Nerd_Weed
At this moment there is no documentation about the medical aspects of CBN.
CBN is an oxidation constituent of THC and seems to have 10% activity of THC.It is possible that you have benefits of CBN, but at this moment i can't say what sort of purpose CBN has as medical constituent of Cannabis.It seems to bind to both receptors CB1 and CB2.

Namaste

 

[Pops]

The only thing that CBN does is make you stupid and lock your ass to the couch. As El Manito said, there is no known medical benefit for CBN.

Scientists believe that their may be possible medical benefits in CBG,CBC and THCV,as well as THC and CBD. So far, the only one getting any attention is THCV which is being tested by GW for Type 2 diabetes.

 

[elmanito]

@Pops
THCV seems also to be tested for a treatment against Obesity.As an antagonist of THC it seems to decrease the appetite and this can be helpfull for people who don't produce the hormone/neurotransmitter CCK in their brain.

CCK Hormone

Cannabis joins battle of the bulge

Namaste

 

[Pops]

The big difference between THCV and Rimonabant is that THCV is a CB1 antagonist and Rimonabant is a inverse agonist. Rimonabant actually shuts down the CB1 receptor.

 

[elmanito]

Rimonabant is not an issue for me.I'm only interested in the natural constituents of Cannabis and btw Rimonabant had been removed of the market because of serious side effects.THCV in a herb or Hash works much better than Rimonabant without those serious side effects.

Namaste

 

[Pops]

I know that the FDA turned Rimonabant down because of too many deaths in Europe. That will not happen with cannabis.

 

[Thule]

Hey Pops, how is your indica grow getting along?

I planted a few mazar-i-shariff seeds today, and they will be joined by a chinese indica from dali. If I find a high cbd plant, be it bt/bd or bd/bd, I will pollinate it with a known bd/bd line. I'd expect to find decent amount of high cbd plants in the f2s. All you need is one great clone to get a supply of cbd rich oil.

I also have a few jungli sativas, which may have cbd genonotypes.

It will be interesting to see how a high cbd sativa differs from a high cbd indica. Could really shed some light on the significance of terpenes on the perceived stone.

 

[Pops]

Great idea,Thule. Dubi thinks the Chinese Yunnan may have a pheno with high CBD. Ngakpa states that many of the Himalayan charas strains will have CBD. There are a lot of flavors there to work with.

The Mazar and Sheberghan I am growing now are in the 4th week of flower. They are not happy plants, as I just don't have then dialed in. I have no idea what the flower time will be indoors, but I imagine they will be 9-10 weeks. They are not the Kush type, but have a lot of sativa. Seem to be nute sensitive. I am growing this batch in soil, but plan to do a hydro run next. Most plants are tall with wide internode spacing, though one pheno of the Sheberghan is skinny,with multiple short branches.

I think you will like the Chinese Indica. She clones like a dream, unlike the Affies,which are very hard to clone. I just threw away 4 clones that have been in Rapid Rooters for 5 weeks and never grew a root.

Like you, I have some of the Kullu jungli, as well as Pahari Farmhouse, Malana,Kerala,and Parvati. I also have some Kasol,Manali and Punjab, though I know nothing about them. I also have some Paki kushs(pine tar kush,Hindu kush and laspur) that will probably have some CBD. Tom Hill told me a while back that he would be making some more Paki X-18 seeds and would get them to me.

No one really knows what the terpenes will do other than add flavor to the smoke. An organic chemist friend told me that linalool and myrcene make for a heavier stone, while pinene and limonene produce a lighter stone. Greenhouse Seeds had a post in their forum where they told the flavors that some of the terpenes produce, but no one has said about how the terpenes affect the stone. With over 160 terpenes, there could be quite an effect.