Treating Cancer with Concentrates Thread

[medicalmj]

I have never used naphtha. When I first saw the video and then looked into naphtha, it looked too scary to me. He also mentioned that 99% isopropyl alcohol would be an acceptable alternative so that is what I chose to use.

Using or not using the term RSO seems to be an ongoing debate on most forums. I never looked at it by your perspective before Gray Wolf. I, like you, would not recommend the use of naphtha in making a concentrate. The only solvent I choose to use for extracting nowadays is 200 proof ethanol or 192 proof polish vodka.

Call it RSO, iso concentrate, ethyl concentrate, what have you. For me the term RSO is more of a process not ingredients. The process of heat decarbing a concentrate utilizing a rice cooker. If it is more accommodating to not use that term, I'm okay with that. Too bad I can't edit my introduction... I will go back and clear up the fact that I do NOT use naphtha.

Either way, I am sticking with my ND Sap

Thanks for the additional book suggestions!! It never hurts to learn more.

GW makes a great point about what RSO denotes versus connotes. I felt compelled to explain this to a cancer patient since they wanted to treat with "RSO". If you have read the studies than you will be a proponent of cannabis oil. However, if they watch/read how it's made than less than ideal outcomes may transpire. Such as them thinking this is too crude and dangerous and stick with pharma poison, or not question the process and procure it from said methods. Therefore, I went into detail describing everything GW did. So yeah, so long as we understand each other call it whatever.

On an equally important side note, I suggest 190 proof Everclear. You can stop the purge/evap when it still contains the solvent, booze. Simple calculations can give % yield for given volume. And I have concluded that last few minutes of purging out all the solvent is the most damaging.

 

[GrowGoddess]

GW makes a great point about what RSO denotes versus connotes. I felt compelled to explain this to a cancer patient since they wanted to treat with "RSO". If you have read the studies than you will be a proponent of cannabis oil. However, if they watch/read how it's made than less than ideal outcomes may transpire. Such as them thinking this is too crude and dangerous and stick with pharma poison, or not question the process and procure it from said methods. Therefore, I went into detail describing everything GW did. So yeah, so long as we understand each other call it whatever.

On an equally important side note, I suggest 190 proof Everclear. You can stop the purge/evap when it still contains the solvent, booze. Simple calculations can give % yield for given volume. And I have concluded that last few minutes of purging out all the solvent is the most damaging.

I 100% agree in regards to using safe solvents and heat purging causing damage.

I have been sticking with safe products. Grain alcohol is not only safe when it comes to consuming the concentrate. It is much safer than any other flammable solvent I have used. It does not put off the intense fumes like ISO can (only done in the house during a QWET or QWISO extraction, no heat used at all).


I quit smoking cigarettes and switched to e-cigarettes. I really liked the flavor of the one I got most accustomed to. I started thinking that I really don't know what that flavoring is. Then I decided to start mixing my own e-cigarette oils with NF Organic extracts for flavoring. I know that PG USP and PEG400 NF/USP are not exactly good for you, but at least I know what I am consuming vs. the pre-mixed store bought e-cigg juices. That is why I always tell patients to make the oil themselves, then they know what they are getting. Sad that it is so difficult to trust these days, businesses and the general public. You can also use these flavorings in concentrates.


The grain alcohol can produce some really nice oil. This oil was not winterized or paper filtered. It was filtered a couple of times using a metal mesh reusable coffee filter. Most of my filtering is done by gravity. It only requires some patience.

 

[Heusinomics]

Grey wolf- thanks for all your hard work in the cannabis comunity!
Your tireless effort is an inspiration! And your willingness to share knolage is truly selfless so I thank you many times over as Iv learned so many lessons, and look forward to the time I can make a pilgrimage to the farm for hands on learning..

My Q. Is what your current recommendations/preferances are regarding cancer treatments.
Specifically what you recommend for oral treetment of cancer?
1. Stright bho@1gram per day.? Ie. rso style goo gobbling...
2. bho + coconut oil to equal 1g/day concentrate? If so what ratios?
3. Holy shit oral recipe equaling 1g/day concentrate?(Several aplications)
Any less/more concentrate?....

I hav ordered the essential oils n will b making HAO & HSO but was jst unsure which method you recommend.

Looking to Giv my father a 90day treetment to lower PSA from a prostate cancer removal.
Thanks again for all you help!
All the best to those whom are suffering or treating those they love
N oc big ups,respect,and happy growing!

 

[Gray Wolf]

Grey wolf- thanks for all your hard work in the cannabis comunity!
Your tireless effort is an inspiration! And your willingness to share knolage is truly selfless so I thank you many times over as Iv learned so many lessons, and look forward to the time I can make a pilgrimage to the farm for hands on learning..

My Q. Is what your current recommendations/preferances are regarding cancer treatments.
Specifically what you recommend for oral treetment of cancer?
1. Stright bho@1gram per day.? Ie. rso style goo gobbling...
2. bho + coconut oil to equal 1g/day concentrate? If so what ratios?
3. Holy shit oral recipe equaling 1g/day concentrate?(Several aplications)
Any less/more concentrate?....

I hav ordered the essential oils n will b making HAO & HSO but was jst unsure which method you recommend.

Looking to Giv my father a 90day treetment to lower PSA from a prostate cancer removal.
Thanks again for all you help!
All the best to those whom are suffering or treating those they love
N oc big ups,respect,and happy growing!

Thanks for the good thoughts brother HS!

I would use oil and coconut oil or Holy Shit. The coconut oil ties up the liver processing it and the cannabinoids stay in your system longer.

I prefer Holy Shit, which is a 62% solution using a winterized Absolute, so the oil used concentration is higher than straight RSO.

The cinnamon cleans neurotransmitter debris out of receptor sites, so as to make more available, among its other medicinal properties.

500 mg three times a day would give you 930 grams of concentrate, which equates to more than a gram a day of RSO by using an Absolute, rather than raw Oleoresin.

PS: You will most likely have to work him up to that dosage slowly, and you can do it faster if you first adminster 3X the cannabis dosage in Citicolene 20 minutes before administering the oil dosage. It will help mitigate the psychoactive effects of the THC.

To determine his tolerance, administer 30 mg and determine the reaction. Titrate up slowly based on his reaction in 4 hour intervals. Standard tolerance is about three drops, which is right at 100 mg.

 

[Heusinomics]

Thanks for the quick response GW!

I forgot to ask one last Q..
Can you comment on using THC vs CBD?..
Or wether you can recommend one or the other?
I do hav a recent AcDc harvest I plan to extract so I will have both types of bho to use in the Holy Shit & HAO.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Thanks for the quick response GW!

I forgot to ask one last Q..
Can you comment on using THC vs CBD?..
Or wether you can recommend one or the other?
I do hav a recent AcDc harvest I plan to extract so I will have both types of bho to use in the Holy Shit & HAO.

Both have their medicinal properties. For Cancer, the studies I've seen suggest that THC is the main player with cancer and CBD with pain, seizures, etc.

It also appears to be the principle player with Alzheimers. When we switched our patient to a high CBD strain, she returned to being frightened and combative.

 

[LostTribe]

Thanks for the good thoughts brother HS!

I would use oil and coconut oil or Holy Shit. The coconut oil ties up the liver processing it and the cannabinoids stay in your system longer.

I prefer Holy Shit, which is a 62% solution using a winterized Absolute, so the oil used concentration is higher than straight RSO.

The cinnamon cleans neurotransmitter debris out of receptor sites, so as to make more available, among its other medicinal properties.

500 mg three times a day would give you 930 grams of concentrate, which equates to more than a gram a day of RSO by using an Absolute, rather than raw Oleoresin.

PS: You will most likely have to work him up to that dosage slowly, and you can do it faster if you first adminster 3X the cannabis dosage in Citicolene 20 minutes before administering the oil dosage. It will help mitigate the psychoactive effects of the THC.

To determine his tolerance, administer 30 mg and determine the reaction. Titrate up slowly based on his reaction in 4 hour intervals. Standard tolerance is about three drops, which is right at 100 mg.

Brother Wolfman,

We have a friend trying to help a person in need what is your current recommendation for dealing with a cancerous brain tumor, 3rd remission....

As always, Your best advise brother.....

much praise

LT

 

[TerpeneDream]

I 100% agree in regards to using safe solvents and heat purging causing damage.

I have been sticking with safe products. Grain alcohol is not only safe when it comes to consuming the concentrate. It is much safer than any other flammable solvent I have used. It does not put off the intense fumes like ISO can (only done in the house during a QWET or QWISO extraction, no heat used at all).
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=59605&pictureid=1398300&thumb=1]View Image[/URL] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=59605&pictureid=1398301&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

I quit smoking cigarettes and switched to e-cigarettes. I really liked the flavor of the one I got most accustomed to. I started thinking that I really don't know what that flavoring is. Then I decided to start mixing my own e-cigarette oils with NF Organic extracts for flavoring. I know that PG USP and PEG400 NF/USP are not exactly good for you, but at least I know what I am consuming vs. the pre-mixed store bought e-cigg juices. That is why I always tell patients to make the oil themselves, then they know what they are getting. Sad that it is so difficult to trust these days, businesses and the general public. You can also use these flavorings in concentrates.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=59605&pictureid=1398303&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

The grain alcohol can produce some really nice oil. This oil was not winterized or paper filtered. It was filtered a couple of times using a metal mesh reusable coffee filter. Most of my filtering is done by gravity. It only requires some patience.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=59605&pictureid=1398302&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

So are you just letting the wash evaporate? That's what someone here recommend. Sounds like a great idea, no heat damage.

I want to then distill the whole plant and add that back into rso.

It's called RSO+. I can't find the website now, hmm





But,

It seems like Everclear Evaporated RSO+ may be the cleanest most pure and medical oil, using the harsh solvent method


Cheers to the plant and everyone who has helped share truth and light





* A new thought on soak times:

You know, some people (Rick Simpson, namely) says only 3 minutes.
Well sure, shorter times may give you all of the noticeable effect you're going to get. BUT, we we don't exactly first hand see the cancer disappearing as intense as we notice "high",
well, then,
How could all that extra chlorophyll and plant matter hurt?
I think we ought to try to consume all of the plant.

So:

SS(Slow soaked) EE (Everclear Evaporated) RSO(Rick Simpson Oil) +(Plus) =


SS.EE.RSO+



Ha, but I still like the idea of the count oil soak and eating all of the plant over the harsh solvent method's.


Answer?@!:


Both

 

[Gray Wolf]

Brother Wolfman,

We have a friend trying to help a person in need what is your current recommendation for dealing with a cancerous brain tumor, 3rd remission....

As always, Your best advise brother.....

much praise

LT

I suggest using a QWET technique with 190 proof/99.5% Ethanol, decarboxylate it so that it passes the blood/brain barrier, and turn it into Holy Shit oil/

You can also make suppositories by buying the disposable molds on line and mixing the cannabis oil dose with coco butter while molten and pouring it into the molds. Use raw Absolutes for this purpose, not HS Oil with cinnamon, or it will burn.

For patients who the psychoactive effects are a problem, try giving them 3X the oil dose in Citicolene, twenty minutes before the oil dose.

http://skunkpharmresearch.com/qwet-extraction/
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/holy-anointing-oil-and-holy-shit/

 

[Symbiotic AD]

I suggest using a QWET technique with 190 proof/99.5% Ethanol, decarboxylate it so that it passes the blood/brain barrier, and turn it into Holy Shit oil/

You can also make suppositories by buying the disposable molds on line and mixing the cannabis oil dose with coco butter while molten and pouring it into the molds. Use raw Absolutes for this purpose, not HS Oil with cinnamon, or it will burn.

For patients who the psychoactive effects are a problem, try giving them 3X the oil dose in Citicolene, twenty minutes before the oil dose.

http://skunkpharmresearch.com/qwet-extraction/
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/holy-anointing-oil-and-holy-shit/

If you have the capability of doing a CO2 extraction would you still suggest QWET extraction for making the HS oil? Or can you accomplish the same effects using other extraction methods?

I had a patient ask me if I made RSO capsules, in particular with everclear then infused into coconut oil, as that is what helps her with her chronic asthma (This patient has never smoked). I assumed that a product made with a different extract method would have similar efficacy since it is the cannabinoids at higher concentrations that are helping the patient, and the coconut oil is an anti-inflammatory. In this situation I also assumed I could use oil extracted using a CO2 extraction to then create the capsules, am I wrong in assuming this? I want to provide the patients with exactly what helps them, but would prefer to use a more standardized methodology with the equipment I have available.

As always, with me being new to this, I appreciate all of the information that every person here provides. My cannabis specific knowledge has literally skyrocketed with this resource.

 

[Permacultuure]

We do coconut oil capsules for many patients, including cancer patients. You are correct in the assumption that co2 or hydrocarbon extractions would have the same efficacy. People often get caught up in the term rso, thinking that the solvent is the most important aspect.
IMO and IME the crucial aspect is using whole plant, flowers, as opposed to just trim. This is the KEY aspect.

Our most successful story was with a brain tumor cancer patient using whole plant harlequin capsule, using coconut oil. We switched her up to ac/dc whole plant capsules that were 20:1 and she felt the Harley was more effective at a 2:1 ration cbd:thc. She determined the thc is very helpful with sleep and appetite.

Good luck Symbiotic!

 

[Symbiotic AD]

We do coconut oil capsules for many patients, including cancer patients. You are correct in the assumption that co2 or hydrocarbon extractions would have the same efficacy. People often get caught up in the term rso, thinking that the solvent is the most important aspect.
IMO and IME the crucial aspect is using whole plant, flowers, as opposed to just trim. This is the KEY aspect.

Our most successful story was with a brain tumor cancer patient using whole plant harlequin capsule, using coconut oil. We switched her up to ac/dc whole plant capsules that were 20:1 and she felt the Harley was more effective at a 2:1 ration cbd:thc. She determined the thc is very helpful with sleep and appetite.

Good luck Symbiotic!

That is very inspiring. I hope that not only do stories like this continue to happen, but that we can move through the stigma that currently exists and to be able to safely provide people with the medicine that they need.

Thank you for the feedback on my concerns about extraction methods. I too agree that the quality of material used plays an important component on the efficacy of the medicine.

 

[Radic]

Greetnz
Cannabis contains hundreds of pharmaceutical compounds (Turner et al. 1980).

Herbalists contend that poly-pharmaceutical herbs provide two advantages over single-ingredient synthetic drugs:

(1) therapeutic effects of the primary active ingredients in herbs may be synergized by other compounds.
(2) side effects of the primary active ingredients maybe mitigated by other compounds.

Whole Plant Medicinal Extract = The Entourage Effect.
to a Herbalist,,,
whole plant extract does not mean from the buds, leaf, stems. and roots...
no.no.no...
A "Whole Plant" medicinal extract is a three part synergy of cannabinoids, terpenoids and flavi(o)noids, one can perform a whole plant extract on the stems, or the leaves there will be some of all three therapeutic families found there, but, the yields are low and not as powerful as the cannabinoids, terpenoids and flavi(o)noids found in most abundance on the buds..
solvents for whole plant extracts for medical use should take up all three therapeutic families with great efficiency and minimize the amount of chlorophyll’s, concrete oils and waxes which have minimal medicinal value and can cause negative side effects when concentrated.
super critical extracts like co2, butane and even QCW will deliver whole plant extracts...

 

[TerpeneDream]

Greetnz

solvents for whole plant extracts for medical use should take up all three therapeutic families with great efficiency and minimize the amount of chlorophyll’s, concrete oils and waxes which have minimal medicinal value and can cause negative side effects when concentrated..

I've never heard this before. Would love to know more...

 

[Permacultuure]

While I agree with some of what you say, whole plant extract is a term relating to what the biomass is, as opposed to what your referencing to.

Co2 is actually able to fraction off these therapeutics, as are hydrocarbons. The problem lies in the purging, were two of your mentioned therapeutics are most commonly lost. This is where co2 becomes the obvious optimal choice, if only the cost wasn't such a large barrier to entry.
Could you share more about these solvents that are able to extract and retain all of these essential therapeutics throughout the extraction and finishing processes?!

 

[Radic]

all extracts have medicinal use
whole plant extracts are most common in herbal medicines cause they can treat so many ailments at the same time..
herbalists often fine tune the medicine to suite the body type of the sufferer, and to be most effective against the ailments of sufferance. this is partly achieved by the choice of solvent used..eg..
rso is a petroleum ether extract, which wont get much terpene or flavonoidz so thats why its so high in THC.... pet ether is more selective for cannabinoids and less selective for Flavonoids and terpenes..

this is from a ebook i wrote about Medicinal Cannabis Therapy using QCW..

Many solvents will take up "resin", meaning a mix of cannabinoids and terpenes.
A "complete" medicinal extract is a three part synergy of cannabinoids, terpenoids and flavi(o)noids, which is the third component of Cannabis synergism of the entourage effect. The flavi(o)noids, often called bioflavinoids, are represented in Cannabis by common Vegetable compounds such as Quercetin and Rutin all have well documented medicinal beneficial effects along with many others including cannflavin A & B. Of most importance is the extraction of the flavi(o)noid fraction for a Whole Plant Extract.

Whole Plant Extract

I bring this up to stress the importance of the synergy of the three significant therapeutic classes of compounds. The entourage effect. Whole Plant Extractions for medical use should take up all three families of medicine with great efficiency.... and,,,, minimize the amount of chlorophyll’s, concrete oils and waxes that have little or no therapeutic value.
Ethanol is a solvent that will take up all three medicinal fractions.
Why not hexane, dichloromethane, diethyl pet ether, acetone, iso.....etc? Each has it's benefits and it's drawbacks such as too selective, too toxic, too non selective.
Ethanol also when used in a typical extraction has some of the same drawbacks, but Ethanol remains a solvent that will take up all three medicinal fractions. The problem with ethanol is, it's too non-selective.. Ethanol takes up chlorophyll and other undesirable fractions that make it's oils and tinctures "green" and bitter.

The answer lies in changing the traits of ethanol and making it very selective for a whole plant extract, and very non-selective for the other crud. This is easily achieved by freezer-cooling ethanol and the product to extract, then doing a 3minute wash and freezing cold rinse. This is called the Quick, Cold Wash. When very cold and with high quality buds, a near clear extract/tincture can be easily made in minutes.
Ethanol is a relatively safe solvent of which characteristics can be manipulated with temperature to be highly selective for medicinal compounds, while leaving undesirable waxes, chlorophyll and concrete oils behind. Ethanol is a powerful stripper of the cannabinoids and terpenes, and the most noted solvent for working with the flavinoids, quercetin and rutin and is noted in the extraction of flavines and flavones. While other solvents are noted also,
Ethanol is the only one which is non-toxic, when used medicinally, and can be manipulated by very low temperature to not take up waxes, chlorophyll and concrete oils to achieve a pure Whole Plant Medicinal Extract..

 

[Gray Wolf]

If you have the capability of doing a CO2 extraction would you still suggest QWET extraction for making the HS oil? Or can you accomplish the same effects using other extraction methods?

I had a patient ask me if I made RSO capsules, in particular with everclear then infused into coconut oil, as that is what helps her with her chronic asthma (This patient has never smoked). I assumed that a product made with a different extract method would have similar efficacy since it is the cannabinoids at higher concentrations that are helping the patient, and the coconut oil is an anti-inflammatory. In this situation I also assumed I could use oil extracted using a CO2 extraction to then create the capsules, am I wrong in assuming this? I want to provide the patients with exactly what helps them, but would prefer to use a more standardized methodology with the equipment I have available.

As always, with me being new to this, I appreciate all of the information that every person here provides. My cannabis specific knowledge has literally skyrocketed with this resource.

The fish trap exists only because of the fish. The fish in this case are the cannabinoids, terpenes, and flavanoids, which either process can extract.

I actually use butane to extract most of ours, but like CO2, it requires an investment in equipment to do it efficiently and safely, hence my choice of Ethanol for a small scale operation.

As has been noted, holding on to the shorter chain molecules during purge is the challenge, as they can exit with the solvent.

 

[Symbiotic AD]

The fish trap exists only because of the fish. The fish in this case are the cannabinoids, terpenes, and flavanoids, which either process can extract.

I actually use butane to extract most of ours, but like CO2, it requires an investment in equipment to do it efficiently and safely, hence my choice of Ethanol for a small scale operation.

As has been noted, holding on to the shorter chain molecules during purge is the challenge, as they can exit with the solvent.

Thank you for the great philosophy behind extractions. I really do like that analogy. I currently have a SFE system and a CLS for light hydrocarbons, and our lab is currently being built. I understand the purging of light hydrocarbons, but do not fully understand which short chain molecules will be lost during purging of CO2.

Are you speaking of the therapeutic terpenes that will be lost, due to ambient temps of the room during venting out the oil?

Truthfully I haven't been able to familiarize myself with the CO2 oil as much as I would have liked, and have not gone through the purging process, or the winterization. These are two things I am actively trying to research prior to opening our doors, but having little success outside of paying somebody a copious amount of money for consulting. (sorry for derailing here, if anybody can speak with me about it I think I can PM now.)

 

[Gray Wolf]

Thank you for the great philosophy behind extractions. I really do like that analogy. I currently have a SFE system and a CLS for light hydrocarbons, and our lab is currently being built. I understand the purging of light hydrocarbons, but do not fully understand which short chain molecules will be lost during purging of CO2.

Are you speaking of the therapeutic terpenes that will be lost, due to ambient temps of the room during venting out the oil?

Truthfully I haven't been able to familiarize myself with the CO2 oil as much as I would have liked, and have not gone through the purging process, or the winterization. These are two things I am actively trying to research prior to opening our doors, but having little success outside of paying somebody a copious amount of money for consulting. (sorry for derailing here, if anybody can speak with me about it I think I can PM now.)

I'm refering to the monoterpenes lost during purging. With a CO2 system, they can be fractionated off during decompression and preserved for reintroduction.

 

[Symbiotic AD]

I'm refering to the monoterpenes lost during purging. With a CO2 system, they can be fractionated off during decompression and preserved for reintroduction.

Yes I am familiar with that. Again I haven't been able to actually apply it, but this is something I have every intention of learning.