S
stonedeconomist
if your doing a small grow then i would say that it's a no brainer, just make sure that there is no smell when the guy comes to change the meter.
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T
THCV
you guys are missing the point. i am not paranoid about my current electrical usage. i pay a dime a kwh and i am "out west". my bill is over a grand. they know i use a lot of electricity and yes, i am sure they love it. i recently saw a county sheriff on TV, after a grow op bust, have the following exchange:
Reporter: Well, these grow ops are famous for using lots of electricity and water. Couldn't you just look at the large power and water users and go after them?
Sheriff: No. We cannot, and we do not. We wait until we have a warrant for other reasons, and once we are inside we see the power and water usage.
I am not sure what he meant by "cannot", but I liked what I heard. The real issue here, as always, is THE FEDS. And it is unlikely that a TOU meter and the resulting data would set you up for a bust. But you gotta admit, it seems to increase your odds, or at least makes you more obviously a residential grower for anyone who knows about this stuff and bothers to check. SO, in this growing world where only the paranoid survive, it certainly seems prudent to avoid increasing anyone's information about your grow.
And people calling us pussies for not having the electric co come install a TOU meter, please tell us how YOUR TOU meter has worked out for YOU. Silence? I thought so!
Reporter: Well, these grow ops are famous for using lots of electricity and water. Couldn't you just look at the large power and water users and go after them?
Sheriff: No. We cannot, and we do not. We wait until we have a warrant for other reasons, and once we are inside we see the power and water usage.
I am not sure what he meant by "cannot", but I liked what I heard. The real issue here, as always, is THE FEDS. And it is unlikely that a TOU meter and the resulting data would set you up for a bust. But you gotta admit, it seems to increase your odds, or at least makes you more obviously a residential grower for anyone who knows about this stuff and bothers to check. SO, in this growing world where only the paranoid survive, it certainly seems prudent to avoid increasing anyone's information about your grow.
And people calling us pussies for not having the electric co come install a TOU meter, please tell us how YOUR TOU meter has worked out for YOU. Silence? I thought so!
T
THCV
here's a article that helps seal it. all about DEA looking at electric bills. "federal agents, mad cuz i'm flagrant..." It is in San Diego, notoriously pro-Feds county, but nevertheless, fyi:
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/331/utilitybill.shtml
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/331/utilitybill.shtml
G
Guest
Hey THCV...better safe than sorry, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and all those other cliches. I never got that you were paranoid. San Diego??? Fucking right wing conservative Republicans. They're getting older and will eventually die.
not the first time it happened in SD happened to a good friend of mines cousin last year, same exact thing high electric bill ,5 bedroom house, 4 diff couples some with kids , house got raided all they got was a sorry from the police officer and 1 fucked up ripped apart house to put back together!!!!!THCV said:
T
THCV
so, anyone get a TOU meter on their grow yet? been a while since this thread was started, and now that i am planning to have 11KW of lights running all night i could save some real money, so i am considering it again. But I would wait until Obama is president to pull the trigger. For now, analog is ok. Maybe it's still a stupid idea, but i would love to hear from anyone that has a TOU meter.
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yamaha_1fan
For those of you that dont think LEO looks into your electric usage
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:561535
I am going to google in a bit and try to find an update. I think one of the dudes arrested is a member here
We dont have TOU but we do have digital meters here and so far nothing. We have not been offered different rates for different times.
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:561535
I am going to google in a bit and try to find an update. I think one of the dudes arrested is a member here
We dont have TOU but we do have digital meters here and so far nothing. We have not been offered different rates for different times.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in Texas, as in a lot of states there is an increased DEA and Federal involvement. His plant count (which i'd like to know if it was indeed over 100) i'm assuming is what got the feds involved... but seems like chicken or the egg. And charging him as a conspirator when the evidence points towards him not being involved in "some" of those grows... Questionable tactics indeed. Goes to show that when they want you bad enough, LEO will walk right over our Constitutional rights.
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DEDHEDFRED
Hey Bro........LTNS...........
I`d hate ta see you lose all your hard earned genetics as well as your freedom ........I saw where yas had a close call here few months back and thank the lord "you got the call" so I guess I`m gonna throw my 2 cents in and say don`t risk it to save cash while breaking the law .......
I run 1800 watt flip rooms with another couple hundred more watts in other equipment and my powerbills scare me ta death everytime I get em but I don`t grow where I live.....I can`t imagine 11kw daily even with only 12 hr. useage.....Definitely a red flag if or rather when Po-Po violates your privacy rights and sees you`re running 30-50% more power than the surrounding neighborhood homes........
Yamaha uses 9kw and that`s ok I guess cuz he`s had that conversation with folks before but I`d still be curious how much the other homes in his neighborhood use cuz that`s what they base their data and searches on.......
If I hadta guess....The way things are headed TOU meters will become the norm over the next several yrs. if nothing more than to allow LEO to monitor power useage and chalk it up to the Patriot Act cuz after all drug crimes are what fuels the legal system.........
More folks doin time with all their assets seized under forfeiture laws along with felony possession convictions than all the rest of crimes combined........This shit`ll never be legal cuz we`re their cash cow that fuels the machine..........Cali`s already bein torn apart by the DEA on a regular basis...........
I`ve played this game a long time and couple more yrs. for the Dedhed retirement fund and I`m outie........Always remember one thing THCV.......You can`t use it if they take it and you can`t spend somethin that`s gone......Your freedom`s worth the most and until you lose it , it`s hard ta know how it feels till you`re untimely incarcerated........I know...........
My lil rant`s over and I hope you won`t be pissed just cause all you wanted ta know was if somebody was already usin said meter and was savin major bucks........
If I was able to use that kinda wattage and get by with it to produce mega buds like I`ve seen you do for yrs. , I`d pay gladly and be a happy bastard .......
I`m the tightest mofo that ever shit between 2 boots but I pay like everyone else and don`t worry Bro......You`ll be on TOU before long whether you like it or not........They`ll be monitoring how many times we flush our toilets and shit per day before long........Take care and be safe my buddy........
Peace.............DHF.......
........
I`d hate ta see you lose all your hard earned genetics as well as your freedom ........I saw where yas had a close call here few months back and thank the lord "you got the call" so I guess I`m gonna throw my 2 cents in and say don`t risk it to save cash while breaking the law .......
I run 1800 watt flip rooms with another couple hundred more watts in other equipment and my powerbills scare me ta death everytime I get em but I don`t grow where I live.....I can`t imagine 11kw daily even with only 12 hr. useage.....Definitely a red flag if or rather when Po-Po violates your privacy rights and sees you`re running 30-50% more power than the surrounding neighborhood homes........
Yamaha uses 9kw and that`s ok I guess cuz he`s had that conversation with folks before but I`d still be curious how much the other homes in his neighborhood use cuz that`s what they base their data and searches on.......
If I hadta guess....The way things are headed TOU meters will become the norm over the next several yrs. if nothing more than to allow LEO to monitor power useage and chalk it up to the Patriot Act cuz after all drug crimes are what fuels the legal system.........
More folks doin time with all their assets seized under forfeiture laws along with felony possession convictions than all the rest of crimes combined........This shit`ll never be legal cuz we`re their cash cow that fuels the machine..........Cali`s already bein torn apart by the DEA on a regular basis...........
I`ve played this game a long time and couple more yrs. for the Dedhed retirement fund and I`m outie........Always remember one thing THCV.......You can`t use it if they take it and you can`t spend somethin that`s gone......Your freedom`s worth the most and until you lose it , it`s hard ta know how it feels till you`re untimely incarcerated........I know...........
My lil rant`s over and I hope you won`t be pissed just cause all you wanted ta know was if somebody was already usin said meter and was savin major bucks........
If I was able to use that kinda wattage and get by with it to produce mega buds like I`ve seen you do for yrs. , I`d pay gladly and be a happy bastard .......
I`m the tightest mofo that ever shit between 2 boots but I pay like everyone else and don`t worry Bro......You`ll be on TOU before long whether you like it or not........They`ll be monitoring how many times we flush our toilets and shit per day before long........Take care and be safe my buddy........
Peace.............DHF.......
........
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Budweiser13
Active member
What up folks I tried to start a thread here http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=97191 on Digital/TOU meters. I hate to say it but these are starting to go in everywhere and will be part of the smart grid the power co's are going to. I hate to say it but if folks are going to do big grows they will probably have to tap the power before the meter so these new digi's dont see the light patterns. I believe folks will need to on there game with there security. Good luck and stay safe. 
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THCV
ok, everyone is still as paranoid as they should be, haha 
the "savings" pencils out to about $400 per 2 month billing cycle, aka flower cycle. so yeah, not worth it when a zipper will cover the extra cost to ensure max privacy. at least not at the current rates.
that said, re yamaha's link, I don't think my area compares to texas, and i have made the point in another thread that that article is just about the ONLY one googlable on the web that shows any grower getting busted based on power usage snooping (in the US.) But whatever-- people should stay scared of hiwattage grows, it's super risky! dedheadfred, I shut my last one down completely safely and it had nothing to do with power company; our landlord had a scheduled city inspection (passed with flying colors, lol)--and i had paid $1400+ monthly electric bills in CASH for 3 years!!
but i agree with your statement not to risk it while breaking the law. too bad no one with y'know, a couple 1ks, can let us know what it's like with TOU. But, as long as the grid stays up, i guess i don't care.
budweiser, i agree, one day soon we will all be given TOU meters and charged way more for peak usage, and people will learn to change their electricity usage habits for the better of all society. But for those of us that already run most of our watts off-peak it won't change much, but maybe we can save a bit of cash in the exchange.
the "savings" pencils out to about $400 per 2 month billing cycle, aka flower cycle. so yeah, not worth it when a zipper will cover the extra cost to ensure max privacy. at least not at the current rates.
that said, re yamaha's link, I don't think my area compares to texas, and i have made the point in another thread that that article is just about the ONLY one googlable on the web that shows any grower getting busted based on power usage snooping (in the US.) But whatever-- people should stay scared of hiwattage grows, it's super risky! dedheadfred, I shut my last one down completely safely and it had nothing to do with power company; our landlord had a scheduled city inspection (passed with flying colors, lol)--and i had paid $1400+ monthly electric bills in CASH for 3 years!!
but i agree with your statement not to risk it while breaking the law. too bad no one with y'know, a couple 1ks, can let us know what it's like with TOU. But, as long as the grid stays up, i guess i don't care.budweiser, i agree, one day soon we will all be given TOU meters and charged way more for peak usage, and people will learn to change their electricity usage habits for the better of all society. But for those of us that already run most of our watts off-peak it won't change much, but maybe we can save a bit of cash in the exchange.
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yamaha_1fan
THCV I feel ya. That and the lady in California who was doing 8 loads of laundry a day are the only ones that I can recall hearing about.
But the point is how long is it going to take other states to say hmmmm.... If they can do it, why cant we? Thats why I am interested to know if the pulling of electric records was considered an illegal search, like the article hinted at. If not, it sets precedent
But the point is how long is it going to take other states to say hmmmm.... If they can do it, why cant we? Thats why I am interested to know if the pulling of electric records was considered an illegal search, like the article hinted at. If not, it sets precedent
SacredBreh
Member
3 points........Ok.... 4 on edit
3 points........Ok.... 4 on edit
One--timing..... once everyone is on it then the data pool will be much deeper hence less noticeable. The more data to sift the hard to find consistencies. Right now it is new and there is much less "static" to hide in..... C'mon you and I could sit down and look through a stack of electrical reports especially with general time stamps and pick out likely candidates.... too few on it at present
Two--The companies may not care and don't probably want to know but you can bet your ass their is a leo somewhere that would be willing to look at it if the chance arose....... HELLO... the President of this great ...... aaahhh free nation just went on national TV and said they are bugging our phones, putting names on no fly lists etc. If no one is looking (I doubt) they will be.....
Three--If using lots of power have reasons..... put an electric kiln for pottery on your front porch and an empty hot tub in your back yard, a yard light that doesn't work on a pole in your drive way (first visit likely in day time, just a looksy).
Four--What use to be illegal is now legal and even the lawyers are not sure of what is what..... Government having phone companies turn over records then giving the retroactive immunity....hhhmmmmm... ok won't name their names... certain search engines turning over all their search records....
If your worried about the things we know.... then really worry about the things we don't.......
Just some thoughts as I was reading...... great points guys and ladies.
Peace
3 points........Ok.... 4 on edit
One--timing..... once everyone is on it then the data pool will be much deeper hence less noticeable. The more data to sift the hard to find consistencies. Right now it is new and there is much less "static" to hide in..... C'mon you and I could sit down and look through a stack of electrical reports especially with general time stamps and pick out likely candidates.... too few on it at present
Two--The companies may not care and don't probably want to know but you can bet your ass their is a leo somewhere that would be willing to look at it if the chance arose....... HELLO... the President of this great ...... aaahhh free nation just went on national TV and said they are bugging our phones, putting names on no fly lists etc. If no one is looking (I doubt) they will be.....
Three--If using lots of power have reasons..... put an electric kiln for pottery on your front porch and an empty hot tub in your back yard, a yard light that doesn't work on a pole in your drive way (first visit likely in day time, just a looksy).
Four--What use to be illegal is now legal and even the lawyers are not sure of what is what..... Government having phone companies turn over records then giving the retroactive immunity....hhhmmmmm... ok won't name their names... certain search engines turning over all their search records....
If your worried about the things we know.... then really worry about the things we don't.......
Just some thoughts as I was reading...... great points guys and ladies.
Peace
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Y
yamaha_1fan
Doesnt matter how large the data pool is. Digital meters can track usage to the minute supposedly. Once that data exists, its just a filter applied to see who runs 60-70% in 12 hour blocks. For small growers doing 2-4KW, not a biggie. Run 10,000 watts and that is going to very noticeable. One option is to start flipflopping. That may even be detectable as the power briefly moves from room to room, depending on if the meter can detect it.
Hot tubs, kilns, you think LEO is going to ask or care about that?
I have seen kilns online that pull 11,000 Watts. but who really believes that one would use the kiln EVERY day for 12 hours EXACTLY for 8-12 weeks?? Or like me every day in a perpetual harvest?
Hot tubs, kilns, you think LEO is going to ask or care about that?
I have seen kilns online that pull 11,000 Watts. but who really believes that one would use the kiln EVERY day for 12 hours EXACTLY for 8-12 weeks?? Or like me every day in a perpetual harvest?
SacredBreh
Member
Not saying it will give you immunity....lol....
Not saying it will give you immunity....lol....
Just saying..... if you wear real tree camo out in the middle of a field hoping not to be seen...... just saying stick to the trees and at least a try for some cover.
Yes having legit reasons will not stop them but makes more difficult to move forward. Most of the time just like fishing..... catch the ones that are feeding and leave the rest for next time. Refusing to give consent to search doesn't mean they will let you go... but sometimes it works and at the very least gives a good lawyer a reason to argue.... just because you are holding doesn't mean the search will hold up in court. Oh...... and yes..... working nights some people choose to run pottery kilns in the middle of the night, especially when the cost goes down.
11,000w could be 1,2,3,4 rooms and stagger the lights.
Hell, truth is if they want you they will get you. Best is to keep your head low and stay off the radar..... speeding down the highway at 3:00am is a lot riskier than 2 in the afternoon.... really the whole system is set up on odds.... all we can do is tilt in our favor as much as the variables will allow..... just saying stay in the trees and as much as possible in a herd..... its worked for thousands of years. Exactly the idea with these internet sites. Think a proxy will stop LEO it you and another guy are the only ones posting pics and details...... but multi sites, multi countries, huge internet.... each time the herd gets bigger..... The Jackels pick off the back of the pack, those that are easier pray, falling out, mistakenly look down while drinking ... not the ones running in the middle..... every step away from the center increases the odds....
Just my thoughts and what keeps me from buggin'.
Peace
Not saying it will give you immunity....lol....
Just saying..... if you wear real tree camo out in the middle of a field hoping not to be seen...... just saying stick to the trees and at least a try for some cover.
Yes having legit reasons will not stop them but makes more difficult to move forward. Most of the time just like fishing..... catch the ones that are feeding and leave the rest for next time. Refusing to give consent to search doesn't mean they will let you go... but sometimes it works and at the very least gives a good lawyer a reason to argue.... just because you are holding doesn't mean the search will hold up in court. Oh...... and yes..... working nights some people choose to run pottery kilns in the middle of the night, especially when the cost goes down.
11,000w could be 1,2,3,4 rooms and stagger the lights.
Hell, truth is if they want you they will get you. Best is to keep your head low and stay off the radar..... speeding down the highway at 3:00am is a lot riskier than 2 in the afternoon.... really the whole system is set up on odds.... all we can do is tilt in our favor as much as the variables will allow..... just saying stay in the trees and as much as possible in a herd..... its worked for thousands of years. Exactly the idea with these internet sites. Think a proxy will stop LEO it you and another guy are the only ones posting pics and details...... but multi sites, multi countries, huge internet.... each time the herd gets bigger..... The Jackels pick off the back of the pack, those that are easier pray, falling out, mistakenly look down while drinking ... not the ones running in the middle..... every step away from the center increases the odds....
Just my thoughts and what keeps me from buggin'.
Peace
T
THCV
ok, agreed. give as little info as possible to everyone. that includes the electric company and that means not taking advantage of TOU/Smart/Digital meters which might be the future of the grid, but for now they sure as hell aren't worth the measly $400 max you could save when you think about it.
stick with the herd indeed...because if the herd really knew what we were doing, we wouldn't look like a herd member at all! we supply the herd with their medicine, but while we are doing it we have to pretend we aren't. Such is the life of a grower. Not so bad if you like secrets and clandestine operations. I wonder how many growers would quit once it's legal since the thrill of the secret will be gone? Not me, but I can imagine some adrenaline junkies might get bored in a legal environment.
I got upgraded from 100 amp to 200 amp service recently, and my meter has been disconnected by the power co. for a couple weeks. They will "estimate" my usage, haha! Lights weren't on beforehand, so should be a cheap estimate...psyched to have the sturdier electrical infrastructure. I guess it might stick out from the herd, but that's better than a transformer fire causing a blackout and revealing my grow...
stick with the herd indeed...because if the herd really knew what we were doing, we wouldn't look like a herd member at all! we supply the herd with their medicine, but while we are doing it we have to pretend we aren't. Such is the life of a grower. Not so bad if you like secrets and clandestine operations. I wonder how many growers would quit once it's legal since the thrill of the secret will be gone? Not me, but I can imagine some adrenaline junkies might get bored in a legal environment.
I got upgraded from 100 amp to 200 amp service recently, and my meter has been disconnected by the power co. for a couple weeks. They will "estimate" my usage, haha! Lights weren't on beforehand, so should be a cheap estimate...psyched to have the sturdier electrical infrastructure. I guess it might stick out from the herd, but that's better than a transformer fire causing a blackout and revealing my grow...
D
DEDHEDFRED
We`ll all be on TOU meters before long ...... I figure that constant flow would look better on my bill than massive wattage 12 hrs. a day......
I use 3600 watts per location but 1800 per day total in each flip room and maybe another couple hundred more for all the rest of the equipment .......
My powerbills`s not crazy but I`m scared ta go any bigger cuz they don`t play down here where I live and 5-6 lbs. per month suits me fine with ongoing perpetual locations........
Ya`ll take care......DHF...... .......
I use 3600 watts per location but 1800 per day total in each flip room and maybe another couple hundred more for all the rest of the equipment .......
My powerbills`s not crazy but I`m scared ta go any bigger cuz they don`t play down here where I live and 5-6 lbs. per month suits me fine with ongoing perpetual locations........
Ya`ll take care......DHF......
.......
I have one, it's nice. I just tell the wife not to do laundry or dished during that time, set my hot tub on a timer so it's off during "peak" hours, and run my lights at night. On PG&E, sign up for the CARE program with the Time of Use meter (E-6 rate program) and you'll only pay .08 per KWH. Lie on the application if you have to, they don't check it and it's easy to send them a fake 1040 if needed. I save about 70% off my PG&E bills this way, though I do qualify as a low-income household with the people that live with me.
