Thinking of using local soil...maybe?

[guest2012y]

Somewhere in this forum someone posted the breakdown rates of many types of amendments.
I just can't remember where....I'll try to dig it up and post it here.

 

[jaykush]

I'm getting more and more convinced that what we really want is what most growers would consider unsuitably dense soil, but perpetually and totally colonized by roots. Roots are the ultimate drainage and aeration amendment, so by polycropping I am keeping "impossible" soil. Since clover simply regenerates itself from stolons, I will never be rootless. Add the purslane, chickweed, and cannabis, and we have very high biomass and activity, great water retention, and no problems with rot.

errrr biological soil aggregates are the best drainage/aeration method, it takes time to establish them though, and you cant till.

by far plant roots are the second best though.

 

[guest2012y]

Here's a fairly cool link on some amendments.....scroll down to see the charts.

http://www.grow-it-organically.com/npk-fertilizer.html





.

 

[mad librettist]

errrr biological soil aggregates are the best drainage/aeration method, it takes time to establish them though, and you cant till.

by far plant roots are the second best though.

I'm not sure I agree when it comes to containers, but on the other hand it's totally moot. If I am keeping a living mulch and not tilling, I will eventually have both.

If I try to acquire the aggregates without keeping roots in there, it's a lot slower. All the microscopic aggregates I've observed in wild soil came from patches with plants on them. Meanwhile a barren patch not 10 feet away looks totally unfettered.


On the other hand, I don't think soil aggregates can address a bad perched water table, whereas roots act like a wick (water moves up the outside of the root).

 

[guest2012y]

Look man,we all know you spend more time bubblin' and shovelin' than growing.

I spent some time shovlelin' yesterday and some time bubblin' last night...my busted ass back hurts today. I need a shit talking, no degree having, fanboy around to do some shovelin' for me....$10 an hour once every 3 months.

 

[mad librettist]

I love shoveling!


I actually worked hard on my shoveling technique, and now only my legs hurt.


it takes a man with too much free time to actually work on shoveling technique.

 

[schwagg]

Look man,we all know you spend more time bubblin' and shovelin' than growing.

I spent some time shovlelin' yesterday and some time bubblin' last night...my busted ass back hurts today. I need a shit talking, no degree having, fanboy around to do some shovelin' for me....$10 an hour once every 3 months.

LMAO!

 

[guest2012y]

I mixed the soil with the shovel and also used my bare ass hippie feet. I'm quite pleased with the bare feet method...easy peasy and pretty effective. This was quite the pile of soil mix......
I used to shovel concrete.

 

[mad librettist]

Alexander Technique

 

[guest2012y]

Alexander Technique

I've developed a pretty anal mixing technique. I wouldn't let just anybody mix my soil. I'd feel they wouldn't do it right...there's rampant incompetence out there and more and more people are less than half-ass.

 

[pinecone]

Interesting discussion here guys.

lI'm getting more and more convinced that what we really want is what most growers would consider unsuitably dense soil, but perpetually and totally colonized by roots

You guys know way more about plants than I do. Are there any annuals that are similar to cannabis in terms ferocity with which they establish root systems and rate at which they grow?

I've been following your stuff on drainage amendments and the perched water table - and I've also read some of Al's threads on gardenweb. It makes sense in theory, but in practice cannabis roots don't seem to mind the perched water level. I've heard stories of people putting plants in water for extended periods of time with no ill effects (https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4376852&postcount=4). I've also seen some pretty big plants growin 2l soda bottles and 4" squares filled with straight coco kept consistently wet. If cannabis plant roots had a problem with the perched water table it seems like these things would not be possible. So this has me wondering if the cannabis roots do in fact change the container properties rather dramatically in ways that other plants can't.

biological soil aggregates are the best drainage/aeration method, it takes time to establish them though, and you cant till.

What are biological soil aggregate and where can I read about them? I googled and the term and got a lot of stuff about "crust".

Pine

 

[guest2012y]

I've grown next to steams and rivers most of my outdoor grows. Once the plants reach the water table,which is only a few feet down,they explode.

One time I planted 5 clones in the sand bank of a small stream,the roots were in water 24 hrs. a day.....they were awesomely huge and healthy. Water actually flowed around the stems. Cannabis likes wet feet,but not stagnate still water. The moving water always had great results in multiple climate zones.

 

[jaykush]

What are biological soil aggregate and where can I read about them? I googled and the term and got a lot of stuff about "crust".

essentially its when the micro organisms exude "glues" and form "clumps" in the soil. these clumps have gaps between them( which may look pointless to you, but its a great deal of air for a microbe), giving space for air and water to move.

some more reading which explains is better. long read but even if you read the first 1/4 of it you should get a better grasp on why.
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010112krasil/010112krasil.ptII.html

this is whats going on in your recycled no till tub.

 

[pinecone]

One time I planted 5 clones in the sand bank of a small stream,the roots were in water 24 hrs. a day.....they were awesomely huge and healthy. Water actually flowed around the stems. Cannabis likes wet feet,but not stagnate still water. The moving water always had great results in multiple climate zones.

People also get pretty big plants out of those swamp tubes which are basically sitting in water.

Pine

 

[guest2012y]

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010112krasil/010112krasil.ptII.html

Awesome link Jay....

People also get pretty big plants out of those swamp tubes which are basically sitting in water.

Pine

My results from planting next to stagnate zones like swamps were poor. I now assume it may have been because of anaerobic soil conditions. I've also built reservoirs in which the plants could reach the buried water source,which was just sitting water,with better results.

 

[mad librettist]

Interesting discussion here guys.



You guys know way more about plants than I do. Are there any annuals that are similar to cannabis in terms ferocity with which they establish root systems and rate at which they grow?

I've been following your stuff on drainage amendments and the perched water table - and I've also read some of Al's threads on gardenweb. It makes sense in theory, but in practice cannabis roots don't seem to mind the perched water level. I've heard stories of people putting plants in water for extended periods of time with no ill effects (https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4376852&postcount=4). I've also seen some pretty big plants growin 2l soda bottles and 4" squares filled with straight coco kept consistently wet. If cannabis plant roots had a problem with the perched water table it seems like these things would not be possible. So this has me wondering if the cannabis roots do in fact change the container properties rather dramatically in ways that other plants can't.



What are biological soil aggregate and where can I read about them? I googled and the term and got a lot of stuff about "crust".

Pine

I think the mixes I'll be coming up with next are going to thumb their noses at perched water.

With cannabis it isn't rot you worry about so much. The perched water table just robs you of a bit of root space at first. Once the roots hit it hard, even the pine bark people admit the problem is solved. I'm using clover to structure the soil ahead of time, and the results so far are astonishing.

Given a whole shitload of viable space, plants get big fast. Much faster, it seems, than when they are potted up and up.

 

[pinecone]

some more reading which explains is better. long read but even if you read the first 1/4 of it you should get a better grasp on why.

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010112krasil/010112krasil.ptII.html

Kostychev and Vil'yams were ahead of their time.

The perched water table just robs you of a bit of root space at first. Once the roots hit it hard, even the pine bark people admit the problem is solved.

How long does it take cannabis roots to "hit it hard"? I'm guessing days in many instances. If I were to up pot a healthy plant from a something like a 0.8 gallon nursery pot to a 4.1 gallon nursery pot, I would definitely expect to see roots in the drainage holes within a week.

I'm using clover to structure the soil ahead of time, and the results so far are astonishing.

Kostychev would approve and I like the idea as well.

Given a whole shitload of viable space, plants get big fast. Much faster, it seems, than when they are potted up and up.

I've definitely changed my mind on progressive up potting.

Pine

 

[guest2012y]

One thing about larger indoor gardens and the variable environments each one has.....

There isn't always perched water table that sticks around for more than in some cases a few hours. The water is constantly being sucked up due to heat and massive air movement. Start blowing fans and sucking air out through a 800 cfm or better fan @ 80 degrees and the transpiration level jumps. With optimal indoor conditions I'm moving 85 gallons of water vapor through the stomata every 48 hours in flower,that's half of the 24 hr. veg cycle which in full growth can suck up about 35 or more gallons. If you don't have your room dialed in you can actually damage the leaves from what I observe as over-transpiration.

Larger plants in bigger pots last a bit longer...I'm talking larger than 5 gallon pots.
The indoor potted plant environment can be tricky to get right with larger indoor gardens to less experienced big croppers.
Soil mixes that hold water are critical,but they have to also drain well and get a decent amount of aeration. Another one of the reasons I aerate my rain water 12 - 24 hrs. prior to watering.
I'd say a custom soil mix for each specific indoor garden would be the way to go. If you have enough time in with this stuff you figure out what each environment does to the water use....and then you can build a soil to match it.
Every room is different IME

 

[mad librettist]

How long does it take cannabis roots to "hit it hard"? I'm guessing days in many instances. If I were to up pot a healthy plant from a something like a 0.8 gallon nursery pot to a 4.1 gallon nursery pot, I would definitely expect to see roots in the drainage holes within a week.

I think it can take a while, and it only becomes apparent when you root a plant without the perched water problem. Maybe my reliance on LED in veg leaves me more vulnerable... What I am looking at is plants staying small in small pots, and getting big in big pots. go figure... Remember though most of us were taught you can't put a small plant in a big pot, or that it's harder to do. Recent experience over in madliberated's garden says otherwise.

by "hitting it hard", I don't mean just sending a tap root in there. I mean colonizing thick enough you could not put your finger through. At that point the structure of the soil itself is subordinate to that provided by the roots. That process takes a lot longer when the region of the container tends to be saturated.


All due respect to a master, oxygen in the water before it hits the mix is not the issue.

 

[guest2012y]

On this next round I'll be doing some big no-till pots without taking the stump out. I'm assuming as the old plants roots begins to break down and are consumed by the organisms that the new roots will eventually grow into that space...???

There seems to be a greater overall plant health appearance after watering with highly aerated water. It's got to be good for the organisms,soil health,and should supply a bit more O2 to the root zone.
I'm just saying that it can't be bad to apply this as my results are pretty damned good...which is no doubt a # of things contributing to the final result.