THE WoW THREAD.

[dank.frank]

You could try using NAPA floor dry. It will not float like perlite does. My plants love it better than the coco. I have my best roots in the top 2 inches of my pot where I top dress with the floor dry. Cost me about $7 a bag and the bag is 6 gallon.

No. NO. NOOOOOOO....

I admit I used to advocate this - but I think there are better solutions and products to use at the end of the day. I've explained my reasoning behind this in several posts, but the calcined diatomaceous earth (such as in some kitty litters and oil spill products) is primarily designed to be an ABSORBENT.

Yes, it creates a good particle sized spacing within the medium - HOWEVER, as much as it can facilitate drainage it also promotes retention.

I found my soil become TOO compact and found that my soil would dry out unevenly - with the sides getting dry and pulling away from the containers, yet the middle near root stock staying moist. This resulted in poor root health where things were too dry and too wet at the same time. Not to mention, calcined DE has a rather high pH...

On top of those issues, I always found myself getting a strange "deficiency" or spotting on my leaves that I could not ever diagnose 100% accurately. This would completely disappear in soils that were not utilizing the calcined type products...

I honestly wish I had NEVER promoted the product to be used / tried out by other people - because now I have to constantly type out this disclaimer...

All that aside, I personally think THE BEST soil aeration amendment is a product called "PermaTill" - I LOVE THIS STUFF. It is basically indestructible, porous, proper particulate size, does not affect pH and has a very high CEC. It CAN BE used as a 1:1 replacement of perlite, and in most cases I find it takes a bit less as it doesn't break up / crush over time...

(this is not a purchase link but a product information link): http://www.permatill.com/home-garden-products.php?cat=8

I'll never buy a bag of perlite again...pay money for 1/3 a bag of dust....no sir...



dank.Frank

 

[Ichabod Crane]

I guess that maybe the case for you. I ran mine as a top dress mostly and have not really used it to much in the media. I know as a top dress my roots absolutly love it.

I have not noticed the compaction on my pots. They are packed with roots and I grow in coco so it is hard to say if it was the roots or compaction. A 5 gallon bag for a 12-16 ounce plant. Maybe 7 if the fives are all in use.

It does break down over time but Marlo said he dumps his soil. And it takes a while to notice the decompostion over time.

I will never use the perlite either again. Got a bag and a half if you want it. Been sitting in the basement for 2 years now.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

How much does the permatill cost? The closest place is around 200 miles away.

 

[Marlo]

I have about 60 gallons of Turface from my very 1st grow.
Always thought about adding some to my soil, but never managed to do it. It is calcined clay if Im not mistaken.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

I have about 60 gallons of Turface from my very 1st grow.
Always thought about adding some to my soil, but never managed to do it. It is calcined clay if Im not mistaken.

I believe it is but it has been fired to harden it. The NAPA has not been fired and I believe is larger in size. I have not laid hands on the turface so I am just going over what I have read here in the PK thread.

 

[CARE giver]

Hey marlo how big of pots would you recommend with a 4 plant, 5x5 1000w organic soil setup?

 

[bobblehead]

With calcined clay you need to take into account the high CEC... which is cool with synthetic nutes since most people are overfeeding and they need that buffer with readily absorbed nutes... but why don't we use coco as an organic base? Because of the high CEC and its tendency to hold Ca. With an organic base you don't have as many molecules that are freely absorbed, so you don't want them getting tied up in your soil... Which is what I believe D.F. has experienced. Calcined clay doesn't break down very fast, so I don't believe its a matter of what is being released, but rather what is being held.

Admittedly I added calcined clay to my soil before knowing any better... and my CEC is super high, which also has to do with my like 30% organic matter... lol Hopefully I've filled some of those cations though by adding lots of micros and macros in their salt forms. I didn't add much organic matter for the current grow, now I'm mostly focused on the biology that breaks the organic matter down and makes it available to the plants.


CARE giver: No offense to Marlo, but how many 1kw lamps do you see him running in a 5x5? lol Make yourself a 3'x3'x1' bed... or if its a tent and you can walk around the perimeter make the bed 4'x4'x1'. The bigger the soil the better, within reason.


and Mr. D don't come messing with my posts. We all know you grow the best B grade coco herb.

 

[Shoots]

He said B grade coco herb. hahahaaha. Bobblehead owning

 

[Ichabod Crane]

He said B grade coco herb. hahahaaha. Bobblehead owning

I know what a compliment right. Keep going Bubblehead you will get there to.

 

[mojave green]

No. NO. NOOOOOOO....

I admit I used to advocate this - but I think there are better solutions and products to use at the end of the day. I've explained my reasoning behind this in several posts, but the calcined diatomaceous earth (such as in some kitty litters and oil spill products) is primarily designed to be an ABSORBENT.

Yes, it creates a good particle sized spacing within the medium - HOWEVER, as much as it can facilitate drainage it also promotes retention.

I found my soil become TOO compact and found that my soil would dry out unevenly - with the sides getting dry and pulling away from the containers, yet the middle near root stock staying moist. This resulted in poor root health where things were too dry and too wet at the same time. Not to mention, calcined DE has a rather high pH...

On top of those issues, I always found myself getting a strange "deficiency" or spotting on my leaves that I could not ever diagnose 100% accurately. This would completely disappear in soils that were not utilizing the calcined type products...

View Image

View Image


I honestly wish I had NEVER promoted the product to be used / tried out by other people - because now I have to constantly type out this disclaimer...

All that aside, I personally think THE BEST soil aeration amendment is a product called "PermaTill" - I LOVE THIS STUFF. It is basically indestructible, porous, proper particulate size, does not affect pH and has a very high CEC. It CAN BE used as a 1:1 replacement of perlite, and in most cases I find it takes a bit less as it doesn't break up / crush over time...

(this is not a purchase link but a product information link): http://www.permatill.com/home-garden-products.php?cat=8

I'll never buy a bag of perlite again...pay money for 1/3 a bag of dust....no sir...



dank.Frank

but frank, how can we know you're not leading us astray again?

i kid, i kid!

 

[dank.frank]

Because of this:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4944882&postcount=39

and this

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5597316&postcount=6664

and this

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5603087&postcount=6904





Hey Marlo, I did find another post I was looking for in regards to the depth of your beds though:

Think deep. Soil microorganisms function at heirachical levels, each type functioning within the homeostatic strictures of its given levels (e.g. moisture, oxygen, CO2, porosity) passing on components of degradation/digestion to the adjacent heirarchical level. Myriads of fungal structures and pathways remain inplace. Thus, we have the basis for not tilling. The indigenous peoples of the Terra Preta beds claim that so long as the soil below 20 CM remains intact, fertility will remain or be restored. If it were me I'd go for at least 12 inches depth.

dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

How much does the permatill cost? The closest place is around 200 miles away.

It varies - I've paid as much as $25 and as little as $8 - so go figure.



dank.Frank

 

[Grizz]

Frank got a question for you and I wanted to do it in the open so I am sorry marlo if this is fucking up your thread but after seeing marlo's grow and so many by Philthy and others using your soil mix why cant we form a partnership of a few guys on here and get your mix on the shelves of grow stores in some area's ?

 

[CARE giver]

Thats a great idea!

Ive already told Frank id try n help in any way possible.

My local store is very cool. Im sure theyd take the product in and promote it .

 

[dank.frank]

I typed a fairly long answer to that question in PM to a couple people...

It comes down to the difference between putting it together for a single run - and putting it together in a manner that allows it to actually perpetuate itself.

Ordering in large enough bulk, to cut the costs down - not only of the amendments themselves but the SHIPPING...

You can ship a pallet with a 1 ton super sacks for about $115 - but to ship 300# of various amendments from each of 4 different wholesalers can cost you 5x more than the amendments themselves...

The super sacks bring up an entire differently problem though, outside the cost of truly buying in such bulk - STORAGE. You are talking 20+ 1 ton pallets then that need to be stored in a climate controlled environment warehouse to keep any moisture from causing clumping, etc. which is space that I personally do not have, nor can I afford to rent.

So certainly I could do the same thing I did a few years back and put together 100 units here and 50 units there ... then for me to be a wholesaler vs a retailer of the product cuts even further into the price point at which it has to be offered. A reseller has to have room to mark up the product to make it profitable for them to vend. The last time I had it was being retailed I only made $3 per bag I sold - and THAT is just not a sustainable business model. You end up running out of one ingredient...and then need to have it shipped again - and boom - you are back in the red on shipping costs for a single item.

The last time I SERIOUSLY discussed this in the concept of someone having a vested interest, I was told to get a price to produce 1,000 units. That was $13-15k - which if I did start a crowd funding campaign - that sum would be the goal - and that isn't ordering super sacks or covering storage...that would be working out of the garage for a couple weeks...

If I were to REALLY get serious and get super sacks - storage, etc. I could be set to produce upwards of 10,000 units - but the cost would be around $30-35k.

I don't know - for me, either of those sums are actually more than I make in a average year...so it seems a bit daunting to me...and saving up money when you are hovering around the poverty line is a joke.

These aren't excuses and I'm not being a pessimist - but doing another 50 bags here and there just isn't TRULY practical - nor is it profitable. (I learned that the hard way.) And this isn't greed speaking - it's just the reality of any one considering a BUSINESS.

Even with producing 1,000 units, I still would not be able to offer those wholesale to a retailer - I'd have to retail them myself to make it worth it possible to grow the idea and and it become self perpetuating financially...

I hope this makes sense...feel free to rebuttal..



dank.Frank

 

[oceangrownkush]

I got hella storage space lol. I'd be down to up some shipping containers and ship out your west coast orders, fwiw. I wanna mix up some Phillthy soil for some gg4 outs sometime soon, bet that shit will be proper.

Sorry to barge in y'all's, just a fascinating convo for me cuz I dig the results your guys soil gives. Big ups on the walls by the way Marlo! Always lookin proper.

 

[Grizz]

I would say internet sales might be more practical then,

 

[bobblehead]

Lots of cheap real estate in detroit/Michigan in general. You can get the warehouse for $10-15k. Which is a large investment initially, but that's it, it's yours. I don't think anyone is gonna break in and steal a bunch of dirt shit and dust.

Internet Sales are the way to go, call to inquire about bulk orders... fuck a hydro shop.

I don't think it would be that challenging to raise $50k to get you up and running.... but you'll need a solid business plan. Sounds like you know what it'll take to put the soil together, but could use some help on the retail end. There's lots of people here with extra money to invest in a legit startup. Shit, I'll volunteer the lake house for you to mix your dirt in! It's 1200sqft on 1 acre... The house is all fucked up, so you can't possibly make things worse unless you burn down my garage. Lol

 

[DIDM]

OK, let me make it super simple,



I'll just let you decide

https://www.kickstarter.com/learn?ref=nav




also, my real ? has always been, what about trees? is there anyone doing 1+ per plant doing this indoors?

I just am curious how long it takes for microbes and the plant to go through the amended base, soil or coco



also, I'd lend an ear if ya need shipping done, I was somehow born to a shipping guru

 

[bobblehead]

I just am curious how long it takes for microbes and the plant to go through the amended base, soil or coco

I grew 6 1lb+ trees my first attempt at large organic plants. If it works outdoors there's no reason it can't be replicated indoors. How long before you need to re amend depends... just like everything else in growing it varies. Some things will need to be re amended before others. That's where a $25 soil test comes in handy. Something factual about what the plants are eating. I like science. Synthetic nutes are more simple... I guess. Lol organic isn't as complicated as Frank and I make it out to be. Backyard Farmer had me start with promix, dr. Earth 4-4-4, and ewc. Easy. Kinda hard to fuck it up.