The ULTIMATE stealth strain

[teide]

Ruderialis isn't actually a separate species of Cannabis, "ruderal" literally translates to recently wild or "weedy". Technically every strain of cannabis has some ruderal or feral linage, even if very distant. This is why many true landrace sativa strains from regions where cannabis is found feral often exhibit phenotype which display these beady traits, due to wild airborne ruderal cannabis pollen contaminating outdoor cannabis farms. This can be seen in the Nanda Devi strain I referenced earlier availabe from TRSC.

My understanding is that there is still no consensus on how to classify c. ruderalis? I agree that ruderal often is translated as weedy or wild. Ruderal is also describing plants that first grow and colonise disturbed land, like after a fire. Also after landslides, plowing, construction, etc.
I would say a ruderal cannabis is not the same as cannabis ruderalis, though. One trait that defines ruderalis is the autoflowering one. A ruderal cannabis plant found in the highlands of India would probably not flower in time if planted in northern Europe? Enlighten me if I'm wrong.
Some ruderal plants may pollenate landraces, yes. Anything might result from that cross, I guess, depending on the genes in the pollen.
I have too little knowlegde to comment with certainty, and these are just uneducated opinions.
C. Ruderalis is a building block in all autos, and when bead phenos occur in autos, I am pretty sure it comes from the ruderalis genes.
I agree that technically all strains have a feral lineage, as they all have evolved from a population that once grew wild, if we go way back.
I also think that the beady phenos that we are looking for are traits that once were common in all cannabis if we go back to the origin. The earliest plants probably had very small and sparce buds, and humans eventually increased potency and bud size through cultivation.
Strains like nanda devi haven't been worked towards bigger buds, and so they are closer to the old feral strains in their genotype.
I am sure beady phenotypes are due to the trait being inherent because it is not bred out. I don't think the pheno only shows up when the farm is contaminated by airborne feral pollen, though I'm sure that might increase the ratio..

 

[Guest]

So I've realised the ABC with 4 sets of leaves per node is a fasciated plant.



It's developing a celery/long flat stem.


After reading I believe this is a random non inheritable mutation although not in all plants e.g. lentils and soy. Does anyone have experience with this. Is an S1 of this plant more likely to be fasciated?



Would be great if it can be stabilised as it completely changes the structure of the plant. Combine that with being ABC and it's definitely a stealthy plant haha

 

[teide]

That would be awesome.
Hyb has encountered the pheno himself.

He claims it's non-heritable.

 

[Holderchert]

My understanding is that there is still no consensus on how to classify c. ruderalis? I agree that ruderal often is translated as weedy or wild. Ruderal is also describing plants that first grow and colonise disturbed land, like after a fire. Also after landslides, plowing, construction, etc.
I would say a ruderal cannabis is not the same as cannabis ruderalis, though. One trait that defines ruderalis is the autoflowering one. A ruderal cannabis plant found in the highlands of India would probably not flower in time if planted in northern Europe? Enlighten me if I'm wrong.
Some ruderal plants may pollenate landraces, yes. Anything might result from that cross, I guess, depending on the genes in the pollen.
I have too little knowlegde to comment with certainty, and these are just uneducated opinions.
C. Ruderalis is a building block in all autos, and when bead phenos occur in autos, I am pretty sure it comes from the ruderalis genes.
I agree that technically all strains have a feral lineage, as they all have evolved from a population that once grew wild, if we go way back.
I also think that the beady phenos that we are looking for are traits that once were common in all cannabis if we go back to the origin. The earliest plants probably had very small and sparce buds, and humans eventually increased potency and bud size through cultivation.
Strains like nanda devi haven't been worked towards bigger buds, and so they are closer to the old feral strains in their genotype.
I am sure beady phenotypes are due to the trait being inherent because it is not bred out. I don't think the pheno only shows up when the farm is contaminated by airborne feral pollen, though I'm sure that might increase the ratio..

Tiede, I'm not not a botanist, only describing what I've read or heard from the them. A quick google search will turn up much more information, but here are two good sources for your review. Let me know if you need access to the academic article.

Wild auto-flowering cannabis, which makes up the majority of the wild population, is a trait that was bred out intentionally by eastern rural farmers in order to increase yields of fiber and seed production for food. Most stands of wild cannabis found in places like the Kunar river are a mix of both auto-flowering and photo-period plants, with wild populations primarily expressing the auto-flowering trait due to reproductive advantage. Their sex life isn't bound by the seasons therefore they reproduce year round and dominate the gene pool. The auto-flowering trait certainly isn't an expression of a particular species of cannabis, this is a misnomer, its simply a genetic expression. Like thin leaves on sativa plants, also a commonly (untrue) misunderstood subject.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318154669_Models_of_Cannabis_Taxonomy_Cultural_Bias_and_Conflicts_between_Scientific_and_Vernacular_Names

"The development of vernacular “Sativa,” “Indica,” and “Ruderalis” was abetted by twentieth century botanists, who ignored original protologues and harbored their own cultural biases."

https://landrace.blog/2019/04/30/landraces-myth-busting-wild-cannabis-and-traditional-strains/

"Cannabis ruderalis has to date only existed as a putative origin species, a hypothesis, an idea."

Really there is no true "Ruderalis" species, which only makes our task more confusing because the terms so commonly used to describe auto flowering plants that to trace back to which genetic pool are these traits being born from is nearly impossible. And obviously the commercial market and social corners have completely bastardized cannabis taxonomy so there's no point in trying to enlighten the public. Most people just want to smoke or sell weed anyway.

The easiest route may be just to try to find hybridized plants that have a tendency to express "beady" flowers and breed out the trait into expression if it isn't already too recessive.

 

[teide]

Great info, Holderchert! Thanks!

 

[Holderchert]

Great info, Holderchert! Thanks!

Of course teide, just trying to help. I'd love to grow something like those cheese strains you posted.

 

[Guest]

An interesting note for an ABC hybrid.


A single test seed on ABC X 79xmas came out normal after a few sets of leaves and was a fast flowering squat pure indica female that in every way is like it's mother 79xmas.
Wouldn't be surprised if it's really easy to change the bud structure on an ABC if you use a stable ibl that dominates the cross.

 

[teide]

Sounds promising that it is pure 79xmas in f1, and not showing any traits from the abc parent.
F2 however will be more interesting, of course. Don't really expect seeing much abc traits in f1. How far along are you in the process, liltree? Have you gotten f2 seeds yet?
I just sprouted some site 4, and three c99xabc are above ground showing first true leaves.
They will be intercrossed as soon as possible, and also crossed with Auto Jack Herer from Labuenahierba to get them to autoflower.
Was the site 4 also slow to flower, like the subt1? Auto seeds will be fun! variation will be bigger than if working with clones, but don't know how well abc clones yet, and selecting bud phenos throughout the auto generations might be quicker than with photos.

 

[Holderchert]

An interesting note for an ABC hybrid.


A single test seed on ABC X 79xmas came out normal after a few sets of leaves and was a fast flowering squat pure indica female that in every way is like it's mother 79xmas.
Wouldn't be surprised if it's really easy to change the bud structure on an ABC if you use a stable ibl that dominates the cross.

As Teide said the abc leaves probably won't be expressed commonly in the f1 generation. Check out the CSI humboldt instagram they reported 80% of the f2 generation being normally structured out of I think a few hundred seedlings.

 

[teide]

Sometimes the f1 generation is a mix of both parents, no? As I understand it, the f1 will be quite uniform, but the lack of variation doesn't necessarily mean that one parent is totally dominant in the cross. The dominant genes expressed can be an equal or unbalanced mix from both parents. The recessive genes from one parent will of course be masked if the other parent has dominant alleles for the same trait. Liltree is well aware of the abc leaves being recessive and not showing up until sparcely in f2. However, other traits in abc like bud structure could have dominance in the f1, but as his f1 is a copy of the kush mother, he is suggesting that there is little of the characteristics from abc that will be difficult to breed out. Like if we want the bud structure from our elusive foxtailing specimen, it will likely be passed on in the cross?
Might be a big point, even if a single seed is a bit of a limited number from which to conclude..

 

[teide]

It's a shame the recessive leaves only show up in such a low ratio. I have no space for a few hundred seedlings..
25%in f2 is a standard estimate from simple punnet square thinking, but my f2s of kc45xauto only gave me one auto out of 15 seeds. Luckily it was male, so I could pollenate the f2 and get on to f3. I was hoping for two out of ten, but one out of 15 was way lower than expected.

I have a few seedlings going of csi humboldt's c99xabc. These f1s will be intercrossed and hopefully give me a ratio of 25%abc leaves in f2, with slightly raised potency compared to a pure abc cross.
I will also cross them with pure abc. That should increase the ratio of abc leaf in f2 to 50%. More recessive leaf traits, but also maybe a bit less raised potency in this cross, don't know.
Any f2 offspring that maintans recessive abc leaves will be weaker than the ones with c99 leaves, I assume. Still they will be more potent than pure abc.

Now, I will also cross the abc with an auto jack herer to get autoflowering abc. This will be a double recessive expression to select for. That will require some numbers. My veg chamber will be packed for months..
The easiest solution for me will be making a lot of f2 seeds. The f1s will be all similar genotype, both leaf and auto masked. Just need to cross one male f1 to a female f1. Punnet square for two recessive traits in one out of 16. With my luck I should lower that to one out of 20/25.
So I make space for 50 f2s at a time. Those with normal leaves get replaced as soon as the trait is visible. Those who don't auto will also be replaced. I keep replacing until I have auto pollen and auto pistils, that may be after 200 seeds, or after 5, excited to see..
Opinions?
Of course, a superbeady auto would be a better starting point than auto jack, which seems to not foxtail from what I've seen, but it is quite sativa in structure, and as soon as I have autoflowering abc I will cross those with other autos so I only have to select for one recessive trait in stead of both leaves and auto.
We now know that beady, foxtailing autos do exist, so someday a pheno shows up, and I have auto abc to cross it with.

 

[Amynamous]

It's a shame the recessive leaves only show up in such a low ratio. I have no space for a few hundred seedlings..
25%in f2 is a standard estimate from simple punnet square thinking, but my f2s of kc45xauto only gave me one auto out of 15 seeds. Luckily it was male, so I could pollenate the f2 and get on to f3. I was hoping for two out of ten, but one out of 15 was way lower than expected.

I have a few seedlings going of csi humboldt's c99xabc. These f1s will be intercrossed and hopefully give me a ratio of 25%abc leaves in f2, with slightly raised potency compared to a pure abc cross.
I will also cross them with pure abc. That should increase the ratio of abc leaf in f2 to 50%. More recessive leaf traits, but also maybe a bit less raised potency in this cross, don't know.
Any f2 offspring that maintans recessive abc leaves will be weaker than the ones with c99 leaves, I assume. Still they will be more potent than pure abc.

Now, I will also cross the abc with an auto jack herer to get autoflowering abc. This will be a double recessive expression to select for. That will require some numbers. My veg chamber will be packed for months..
The easiest solution for me will be making a lot of f2 seeds. The f1s will be all similar genotype, both leaf and auto masked. Just need to cross one male f1 to a female f1. Punnet square for two recessive traits in one out of 16. With my luck I should lower that to one out of 20/25.
So I make space for 50 f2s at a time. Those with normal leaves get replaced as soon as the trait is visible. Those who don't auto will also be replaced. I keep replacing until I have auto pollen and auto pistils, that may be after 200 seeds, or after 5, excited to see..
Opinions?
Of course, a superbeady auto would be a better starting point than auto jack, which seems to not foxtail from what I've seen, but it is quite sativa in structure, and as soon as I have autoflowering abc I will cross those with other autos so I only have to select for one recessive trait in stead of both leaves and auto.
We now know that beady, foxtailing autos do exist, so someday a pheno shows up, and I have auto abc to cross it with.

Iirc, working the punnet with two recessive traits will result in 6.25% having both traits.
That’s going to take a lot of seeds to sift through.
Have you thought of using feminized pollen?
It could save you a few headaches down the road.

 

[Guest]

Yeah the Xmas X ABC is an F1. Definitely didn't expect any mutant traits, but was surprised to see no landrace sativa traits pop through at all. Was quick to enter flower and leaves super thick on a little squat plant. How do the c99 X ABC's look? Any landrace sativa phenos in there?

 

[teide]

Iirc, working the punnet with two recessive traits will result in 6.25% having both traits.
That’s going to take a lot of seeds to sift through.
Have you thought of using feminized pollen?
It could save you a few headaches down the road.

Yeah, 6, 25% or 1 out of sixteen will be both recessive leaf and auto. I am expecting a tedious search.
I am definitely considering STS. I would like to have the option of regular pollen, but if no males show, reversing will be necessary. I agree, it really saves me a lot of work. If reversing, I only need to find one female auto in f2. I was hoping for a true male in the f2s, and when fully auto in f3 or f4, I wouldn't mind reversing so that all seeds are fem when going guerilla outdoors.
If I find a beady bud pheno, auto or photo, I will definitely reverse that plant, thinking that will increase the chance of stabilizing the buds, crossing beady bud with beady bud instead of beady female with random male.

 

[teide]

The c99xABC are a week old. Way too early to say anything, unfortunately..

 

[teide]

My site 4 look like normal cannabis so far as small seedlings. I was hoping they looked different from the moment they broke soil, so I could have them growing in the open next to chili seedlings. Guess they will change appearance as they grow.

The first two cotyledon look like cannabis but the first set of tru leaves do not. I have used plant ID apps on the ABC and it does not register as cannabis until the first two weeks into flower. Once the ABC starts to throw pistols out, it’s clearly Cannabis, so I wouldn’t grow it in the open if it could endanger your safety or security.

It's funny that the apps you've tried don't identify abc until two weeks into flowering!

 

[teide]

How do the c99 X ABC's look? Any landrace sativa phenos in there?

12/12 from seed, a couple of weeks old.

 

[teide]

White pots ABC site 4.
Black pots auto jack herer.
Will be crossing these..

 

[Guest]

Looking good! Looks like you've got variation between the ABCs. I've found a few trends between seedling leaf shape and final leaf shape. The longer more serrated seedlings usually ended out with the sharper look while the shorter more curvey seedlings usually ended out more rounded fatter leaves. Although wasn't always the case. Curious to see if others experience the same trends

 

[Guest]

Favorite Freakshow seedling, purely because it's the fastest by a long shot. Almost the pace of a non mutant. This will be paired with the most serrated ABC as I believe freakshow is a extreme serration mutation.