The search for a proper recovery pump..

[Gray Wolf]

Am in the process of testing the bigger version of this with the dual chamber. Have run first part of the testing with 120 voltage setup, but plan to run it through its paces wired up at 220 to see what the differences are. Even though it says it will push 60 psi, I found that it was closer to low to mid 50's, & like the Gast's it doesn't like starting up with much pressure - needs a regulator set for around 30 to keep it happy.

It was run from 12 x 12 collection chamber @ average pressures of 30 psi in the chamber with water bath @ 70 degrees and running through a 3" x 48" tube of 3a before entering the pump, then into a MT69 that was in the same water bath before going into the freezer into a 65/35 propylene glycol water mix bath @ -30 degrees and then into a ambient temp tank. (the same setup I used to get # from my TR21 which is 13 lbs per hour). The output was 17 lbs per hour, but like I mentioned, it is picky about pressures!

Will get more info in the next week or so, adding the Appion #s as well as DB levels for the 3 pumps with the same setup.

BTW how are the Gast's doing, & does anyone know anything about the new Gast 86/87 series?

Only know of one person still running the Gast, and he has just broken the second one, and is hooking up the third. It is cantankerous to run, and Gast repelled in horror when they learned of the use we were putting it to, so good to see someone else step in with a diaphragm pump rated for our purpose.

The question with the Gast, was what happens when the diaphragms fail, which they can and do. Has any one answered that question on the BHOgart??

I stopped working the issue when Gast made it clear they weren't interested, but prior to that point had been researching stainless demand regulators that didn't use silicone rubber diaphragms.

Swagelok proposed one for $1500 but were reluctant to 100% guarantee it was suitable and take it back if it weren't.

With a demand regulator, such as is used for scuba and for propane carburetors on engines, a diaphragm pump wouldn't see inlet pressure at all, so ostensibly wouldn't stumble.

We also pumped into an auxiliary tank, and recovered from that to the higher pressure tank, so that pulling a vacuum on one side and building pressure on the other was less of an issue. That greatly reduced recovery time, while keeping our oil less recovery pump seals running wet.

 

[Rickys bong]

1/2 the amperage, 1/2 the heat.

Not if you are running twice the voltage. Wattage is what produces heat.
The only way running 240 might have any benefit is if you have a very long cable run and the voltage drop is significant, if the motor was only seeing 100 volts running for example.

Am in the process of testing the bigger version of this with the dual chamber. Have run first part of the testing with 120 voltage setup, but plan to run it through its paces wired up at 220 to see what the differences are. Even though it says it will push 60 psi, I found that it was closer to low to mid 50's, & like the Gast's it doesn't like starting up with much pressure - needs a regulator set for around 30 to keep it happy.
...

BTW how are the Gast's doing, & does anyone know anything about the new Gast 86/87 series?

You could do a couple of things to help the diaphragm pump. If you hooked up valves so the two chambers could be run parallel at lower outlet pressure and series to get higher pressure. A cutoff switch on the outlet would be necessary to prevent damaging the diaphragm.

To alleviate the startup issue, a small tank initially under vac could be placed on the output side with a three way valve. On startup flow goes to the low pressure tank for a few seconds.

I've also run Gast pumps sealed in a fabricated tank with bolt on ends. That way the pressure on either side of the diaphragm is balanced. The tank cannot go into vacuum though, there needs to be gas in it to cool the pump.

The new Gast you mentioned looks interesting, but it'll have starting issues under pressure due to the large piston size

RB

 

[Brot]

Wattage is the "rating" of the number of watts it takes to run a piticular item. "Amperage" is thr amount of a current a piticular voltage is using. Heat is accoseated with "Amp load" example, a 1 hp motor(1000watts) powered on 120 volt power will draw roughly 20 amps. The same motor(as long as it is veriable voltage) running on 240 volts will only draw aprox 10 amps. So therefore reducing heat. Heres a test, find a motor or light that can be run on both currents. Run the first te on 120volt. Measure and record, Amp load(clamp on Ampprobe) and measure the heat running through your #12 or # 14(short run) cable. Record and compare. Notice the amp load draw is roughly 50% less than a 120 volt circut. Note the temp difference obviously a smaller gauge wire or longer run to power will increase both numbers.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Volts X Amps = Watts

Look at volts like pressure of flow, and amps like volume of flow, so Watts ends being the total energy produced, or gallons delivered.

Look at total energy produced as total heat produced as well.

Looking at it like air or water, Volts is the pressure that overcomes resistance to flow and amps is the volume of the flow. Watts is how much total volume it can deliver at that pressure.

It is also a directly proportional formula, so reduce either volts or amps and total energy delivered is reduced in direct proportion.

Pressure or volts don't care about pipe or wire size, but gallons per minute and amps do. If the wire isn't big enough for the amps being conducted, it will overheat and melt.

Wire size and the size of the motor is determined by the amps present, as is the size of the electrical service wires leading up to the motor. A higher voltage motor can have smaller wires throughout and the motor can actually be built smaller, though a high percentage of 120/240V motors, are simply wired to be dual voltage to save inventory.

Three phase delivers even more energy at the same voltage, because there are three legs delivering amps as opposed to one, and deliver the square root of three X Volts X Amps, or 1.78 X the energy at the same voltage and size motor.

That moves us to how the motors are cooled and what their service factor is. Some are wired for heavier duty than others, some are totally enclosed (finned and exterior) fan cooled, as opposed to being cooled by blowing air through them. A higher service factor motor will run cooler, because it typically has bigger wires.

 

[Sunfire]

Only reason I can see 240 being slightly cooler in the wires, is because there's 2 of them, if you use the same gauge of wires for both hot leads as you would for a single 120 leg. In the motor, I cant see it being any cooler. Energy is energy.

I've also stated the same refference as gw in terms of water but I compare it to a river. Voltage is the width and depth of the river, amperage is the flow rate, resistance could be seen as a hydroelectric turbine pulling energy off the water current.

 

[HG23]

What is the noise level on the V-twin pump?

 

[ohiohallzer]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So I am investigating alternate affordable recovery unit options. As we all know, the G5 works but is not quite built to last, and Appion does not support our kind. Although I am not sure there will be many other manufacturers who do, I am certian that there is a better preforming, more durable oiless unit out there that is capable of running R600. I already have several units on my list and plan to get in touch with the manufacturers tomorrow to find out the materials of all the components of each. I know Teflon, Viton, and nylon components are a plus, what other materials are suitable for contact with butane? 100% resistance is a must, as well as the capability to pull a deep vacuum. What other features/capabilities should we be looking for? Thanks to anyone who can provide some input, I know it will hugely benefit the closed loop community to find a proper non disposable recovery pump. [/FONT]

reach out to me, we have been working with a few and found a great one which hits max at 29.6 [email protected]

 

[Gray Wolf]

Only reason I can see 240 being slightly cooler in the wires, is because there's 2 of them, if you use the same gauge of wires for both hot leads as you would for a single 120 leg. In the motor, I cant see it being any cooler. Energy is energy.

Watts is watts, but volts and amps are interchangeable to a point, because V X A = W

It is the flow however, not the pressure that is creating heat and wire is rated by ampacity, not watts.

Total work done is watts, and a conductor will pass more watts at the same amps and higher voltage.

 

[Gray Wolf]

What is the noise level on the V-twin pump?

Relatively quiet.

 

[SneakySneaky]

Relatively quiet.

tis the season to do work

i have a feeling things will pick up once we get that new pump back, i miss it already.

 

[Gray Wolf]

tis the season to do work

i have a feeling things will pick up once we get that new pump back, i miss it already.

Thank you for participating in the testing!

 

[furrywall11]

What about the https://bhogart.com/product/cmep-ol-butane-recovery-pump/ ?? I had thought that was the solution..is that not the case anymore?

 

[HG23]

I believe they're talking about the 1hp, V-twin, domestically produced pump that is in the works.

It sounds pretty good so far.

 

[Gray Wolf]

What about the https://bhogart.com/product/cmep-ol-butane-recovery-pump/ ?? I had thought that was the solution..is that not the case anymore?

The CMEP-OL is currently filling the bill and our test unit continues to perform well. If you gottum, I would use'm.

Time moves on and things evolve. The VaporHawg is larger, and a little like showing up at a motor scooter party riding a chopped Harley, besides being all domestic iron, including the NEMA 7 motor.

 

[Tramp]

Just got two of the CPS trs21 and they are over eating my recovery tanks. Are the stainless steel coil the best answer to fix this. And what stainless steel coils have you found the best with one quarter-inch flared mail fittings

 

[Gray Wolf]

Just got two of the CPS trs21 and they are over eating my recovery tanks. Are the stainless steel coil the best answer to fix this. And what stainless steel coils have you found the best with one quarter-inch flared mail fittings

We've had good luck with a 3/8" X 50' stainless coil used for wort chilling. We adapt it, the tank, and the pump to 1/2" hoses.

 

[FishmanK]

What a Looooooooong Thread!
Yes, I read it all!
Thanks to all who provided many gems of knowledge and answered many questions.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Two hoss V-twin VaporHawg

Two hoss V-twin VaporHawg

Hee, hee, hee, thangs just keep on getting better for us'n extractors!

Not only has Haskel provided our market with kick ass NEMA 7 Class 1, Div 1, pneumatic refrigerant recovery pumps, but Pharmgold has completed prototype testing and ordered parts for their first pilot run of their NEMA 7 Class 1, Div 1, two horsepower V-twin VaporHawg.

About 6 scfm free air, and capable of both single or double stage, depending on the end pressures desired. It also readily pulls down to -29.3" Hg single stage.

For those of ya'll admiring nice jugs, check out the size of VaporHawg's big bore pump and check out the size of the piston guide sleeves.

More as things progress.

 

[powerbong2000]

holy! Oh yeah, I am "pumped" (shoot me) up.

 

[Old Gold]

Aaaaand, Bhogart just went kaboom and is presenting us with a dual stage recovery pump. Pushes 2cfm as opposed to the CMEP-OL's 1.25 cfm (which they also sell, both $2800).

I'm hoping someone from BHOGART chimes in real soon with more serious details and pictures, as they are advertising the pump on their website and Instagram.

Did anyone know about this one coming?