the "real" landrace debate

[hard rain]

Thanks mate...
I can almost buy that.
My main reservation is that the shipping of slaves was done in the most awful of conditions on the whole. Even assuming that the captured slave was "somehow" allowed to get hold of seeds, how on earth would they have kept them in any sort of decent state? Now the slavers... maybe, that's more of a proposition IMHO.

There is also a huge distance between Colombia and Brazil, even more for Mexico. There were no real road routes AFAIK. Also the presence of slaves in Mexico I think was minimal. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The only thing I think is irrefutable is that there was an established cannabis culture in Mexico and Colombia in the mid-19th. Less so in Brazil, funnily enough.

====

PS. The erowid time-line is interesting enough and there is some very good info, especially re more recent years, but I'd question the entries on some of the earlier dates. There are some sloppy and suspect snippets there.

Seeds would only have to survive a voyage. Fresh seed will last a couple of years almost no matter how badly it is stored. The scale of the slave trade was incredible. It would only take a few seeds to make it. I find it quite plausible that seed came with the African slave trade.

The slave trade existed in Mexico. Read the link below. Interesting the regions mentioned are places I have heard produce good cannabis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Mexican

Interesting topic.

 

[jessethestoner]

Seeds would only have to survive a voyage. Fresh seed will last a couple of years almost no matter how badly it is stored. The scale of the slave trade was incredible. It would only take a few seeds to make it. I find it quite plausible that seed came with the African slave trade.

The slave trade existed in Mexico. Read the link below. Interesting the regions mentioned are places I have heard produce good cannabis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Mexican

Interestin
g topic.

The conditions of most of those ships were terrible for the slavers as well as slaves, hundreds of thousands of slaves were crammed naked, maybe slightly clothed chained to benches and given scraps and terrible rations.
Why the hell am I gathering seeds and figuring out ways to smuggle them and not trying to flee the slavers? If you and me are chained together naked, were do we hide seeds? Why dont I eat the seeds I know are healthy and edible when my whole world is shattered and I or someone I care about (which is a much greater motivation than anything) needs food?

The ideas on that are romantic but way to far fetched for me, and downplays the struggles african slaves went through . I think its a lot more likely that while buying slaves id restock my cannabis seeds stores (which i eat, use the oil from, plant in case my boat gets stranded and i need canvas for sails and rope) from the local supply and itd mix with other places seed supplies as I trade my slaves and journey to my final destination.

 

[med-man]

i lived in lybia and was bombed by regan in 86, mexico, the bahamas and holland, the other half in canada.

you are right though, a better title could have been used

med-man

 

[Thule]

It's not completely far fetched that the Chinese or possibly Polynesians brought seeds with them before Columbus. Polynesians sure made it to Peru/Chile, it is now a fact. Did they grow cannabis? I don't know. There's weedy cannabis growing on Easter Island and dwarf cannabis in Peru. I can provide the links if people are interested in the Polynesian connection. The Chinese theory is not yet quite as solid but there's a book called 1421 the year China discovered the world. They make a pretty good case, and the chinese certainly never traveled without hemp.

Then there's the east coast of North America. Europeans when they first made it to Virginia reported that the natives were growing very good quality hemp. It's in the records. The vikings also never traveled without hemp which was used for their sails. They made it to North America and their artefacts have been found quite south down the coastline, as well as inland.

It would seem the trans oceanic voyage to America was not a mission impossible and has been made numerous times in the past. I've been revisiting the solutrean hypothesis lately and it's now looking more and more likely that ancient Europeans made it across the Atlantic some 20 000 years ago. They were hunter gatherers and probably didn't carry hemp, but it makes you think. Again, I can provide the links if needed.

IF cannabis was in America before Columbus it would have been restricted to sporadic coastal locations like Peru, Oaxaca or Virginia and never had the time to spread to the plains area for example, where it could have gone feral. It wasn't there in prehistoric times that's for sure. To date no cannabis pollen has been found in the sediments so it's all theoretic of course.

 

[jessethestoner]

It
Then there's the east coast of North America. Europeans when they first made it to Virginia reported that the natives were growing very good quality hemp. It's in the records. The vikings also never traveled without hemp which was used for their sails. They made it to North America and their artefacts have been found quite south down the coastline, as well as inland.

It would seem the trans oceanic voyage to America was not a mission impossible and has been made numerous times in the past. I've been revisiting the solutrean hypothesis lately and it's now looking more and more likely that ancient Europeans made it across the Atlantic some 20 000 years ago. They were hunter gatherers and probably didn't carry hemp, but it makes you think. Again, I can provide the links if needed.

IF cannabis was in America before Columbus it would have been restricted to sporadic coastal locations like Peru, Oaxaca or Virginia and never had the time to spread to the plains area for example, where it could have gone feral. It wasn't there in prehistoric times that's for sure. To date no cannabis pollen has been found in the sediments so it's all theoretic of course.

Id like to see a link where the natives were using hemp, I dont believe it.

And the genealogy of native north and south american are closely related to people in northeastern Siberia. Maybe people sailed over from europe or africa but they were a drop in the bucket compared to the land migrations that occurred

 

[med-man]

The conditions of most of those ships were terrible for the slavers as well as slaves, hundreds of thousands of slaves were crammed naked, maybe slightly clothed chained to benches and given scraps and terrible rations.
Why the hell am I gathering seeds and figuring out ways to smuggle them and not trying to flee the slavers? If you and me are chained together naked, were do we hide seeds? Why dont I eat the seeds I know are healthy and edible when my whole world is shattered and I or someone I care about (which is a much greater motivation than anything) needs food?

The ideas on that are romantic but way to far fetched for me, and downplays the struggles african slaves went through . I think its a lot more likely that while buying slaves id restock my cannabis seeds stores (which i eat, use the oil from, plant in case my boat gets stranded and i need canvas for sails and rope) from the local supply and itd mix with other places seed supplies as I trade my slaves and journey to my final destination.

when i lived in the bahamas i learned tons about the slave trade, so i will have to disagree.

big bull males (not racist) from certain tribes in west africa were used to just populate (copulate) any plantation they were sent to. the slave masters treated their slaves like we do livestock. they look for big, strong specimens. muscular etc. these prized males were distributed throughout the new world and treated like kings. all they did was eat and bang. it would be hard for them to bring seeds and even grow the stuff. this is how i heard it from a black bahamian history teacher. he even went on to ask me "didnt yu ever notic how superior in strength and athletics most western black people are?"

med-man

 

[Thule]

Id like to see a link where the natives were using hemp, I dont believe it.

And the genealogy of native north and south american are closely related to people in northeastern Siberia. Maybe people sailed over from europe or africa but they were a drop in the bucket compared to the land migrations that occurred

I wasn't offering a link to that one. It's really hard to google something that was written in a diary 400 years ago, but I read it in some book years ago. Anyway it's some englishman's observation from hundreds of years ago, hardly solid evidence. Googling gives some references but no source so I won't copy paste that. "English indians hemp virginia."

Yeah, maybe the European contribution is a drop in the bucket but the point is, it probably still happened and could've happened time and time again from all directions. They're sequencing the dna of a person from that era as we speak, and the results will be made public in october. The newest find is Polynesian dna markers from Brazil, the story seems more complex than expected. New evidence suggests Stone Age hunters from Europe discovered America

The headline is misleading though, there were other lithic cultures on the continent before Clovis. All in all native americans aren't a completely homogenous bunch. Take mitochondrial haplogroup X as an example.

Looking at the map I find it hard to believe it came from Siberia with the rest of the haplogroups.

"Haplogroup X is also one of the five haplogroups found in the indigenous peoples of the Americas. Although it occurs only at a frequency of about 3% for the total current indigenous population of the Americas, it is a bigger haplogroup in northern North America, where among the Algonquian peoples it comprises up to 25% of mtDNA types. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)#cite_note-Genebase-10It is also present in lesser percentages to the west and south of this area—among the Sioux (15%), the Nuu-Chah-Nulth (11%–13%), the Navajo (7%), and the Yakama (5%)."

 

[jessethestoner]

when i lived in the bahamas i learned tons about the slave trade, so i will have to disagree.

big bull males (not racist) from certain tribes in west africa were used to just populate (copulate) any plantation they were sent to. the slave masters treated their slaves like we do livestock. they look for big, strong specimens. muscular etc. these prized males were distributed throughout the new world and treated like kings. all they did was eat and bang. it would be hard for them to bring seeds and even grow the stuff. this is how i heard it from a black bahamian history teacher. he even went on to ask me "didnt yu ever notic how superior in strength and athletics most western black people are?"

med-man

where do you disagree with me? thats after they were brought here, and all kinds of slave males were brought over. not just the gorgeous, strong mandingoes
ps sex slave is still a slave


Thule interesting post. i saw a old tv special a little while ago where a guy built a medeival irish fishing ship called a currach and sailed to north america, so all kinds of sturdy sea-going vessels could have crossed over. it should also be noted that when the vikings came to iceland there were already irish monks there. the human diaspora is really mind-boggling

 

[CalcioErba2004]

Wow...I'll take a stab at this.


As a people, we humans teach history based on what our predecessors recorded. Previous to the invention of recording history we can only guess as to what happened. There are several different theories flying around, but we need to remember that these are all theories. They are not fact because we don't have a record of them being fact. With that said, history is different on who is telling the story. We all grew up in different places and different times. Our schooling has been different, we were taught different things depending on the view point of the dude who wrote our text books. Now I started to question history and was was fact and what wasn't when I got to college. It was something so simple too. Text books are fucking expensive and there seems to be a new version printed every semester. Why? It's the same damn book isn't it? Apparently there is new information that needed to be added. So in the end I came to the conclusion that we don't know shit, we will never know shit and even though we think we know shit, we still don't know shit...but that doesn't mean shit doesn't exist.

Cannabis could have been native to the Americas at one point but there is no recorded history of it, no proof. It could be that the people in those areas saw it as a weed instead of something useful. To make clothes and things from hemp fiber you have to work it and know how to make paper and stuff. The native American tribes and the Inuit up north were hunters of big slow animals. Why grow a plant when you can kill a big ass buffalo or walrus and eat for months? the skin can make clothing and shelter as well.

Down south the Myans, the Aztecs and the Incas were all trippin balls on some good shit. Nobody that smokes weed would do human sacrafices as part of their religious rituals. If they do, please tell me what strain that is so I don't smoke it.

Did the plant exist here before Europeans? I don't know. Could it be possible it did exist? Yes anything is possible. We just don't have a record of it and we probably never will because these groups of people had no use for it. It, theoretically, was just another weed in the landscape...

 

[Dilbert Do]

I would think that natives brought, medicine over the land bridge. Most weed had seeds then, right?

That's a common misconception; those in the know have always been able to get top quality sensimilla. Someone in the tribe could've been rocking some REALLY pre-'96 Bubba.

 

[jayjayfrank]

c'mon... save the far fetched theories and gram hancock shit for a different thread.

we have to deal with known academically accepted history.

so if it was columbus... 1492 right?

so i would say the soonest... 1497 hemp makes it to the pacific coast.

and even if it was the vikings... 990? 1000? same thing another 5 years, 10 at most.

at that point i am pretty sure the aztecs would be drawing potleafs on pyramids.

the greeks had weed and they still fucked little boys so the morality argument is moot.

 

[swayambunath]

Down south the Myans, the Aztecs and the Incas were all trippin balls on some good shit. Nobody that smokes weed would do human sacrafices as part of their religious rituals. If they do, please tell me what strain that is so I don't smoke it.

India is home to what is arguably the worlds richest and most widespread cannabis culture, and also has a human sacrifice problem.

 

[med-man]

th u.s. has just sacfrificed 1million plus iraqis to name 1 country and one invasion, and they hate weed

med-man

 

[jessethestoner]

So the point everyone seems to argue now is people are people with all the shades of good, bad and neutral. Reagardless of how they view weed
True

 

[med-man]

well, royalty and all their "blue blood" minions and puppet associates can arguably be not "people"

med-man

 

[jessethestoner]

No the worst part is they are as human as you or I

 

[swayambunath]

No the worst part is they are as human as you or I

wise

 

[med-man]

the royal family and their family tree would disagree.

they dont consider themselves "human". any way, its off topic

med-man

 

[Garhart]

I sure would like to find more detailed information on the pharmaceutical companies grows done along the coast where the mountains met water in Mexico and Columbia. It was done as part of an effort that resulted in cannabis Americana . I would love to hear of details or history that might be out there.

 

[oldchuck]

What do you know about it, Gar? I know nothing and am curious.