the "real" landrace debate

[Paco]

Not every African was a slave. Nor were there only western Europeans on those ships. To say that cannabis did not exist prior to what we know as "first contact" with the new world is laughable. Come on guys... really? No one is saying its use was wide spread. But it did exist.
I see a lot of folks who don't really know anything about history beyond what we are taught in primary school...

 

[Rinse]

Mapping a plants history by written records is unreliable even within the 4000 year time period, it gives us clues and evidence, not proof.
I do not subscribe to the consensus opinion on migration dates and "discoveries" of new lands, as there is much conflicting evidence.

Although it does seem the most likely origin of cannabis is Asia, It should be open to debate.

 

[Paco]

Kinda racist...

Re; Introduction of cannabis into the Americas;
I just don't see how slaves would be likely to hide cannabis seeds about their persons.
First of all- How? They weren't going on holiday, they were being kidnapped and removed suddenly and with much force and brutality. When did they get a chance to stash seeds about their person?
Second of all- Why? Like most people in the world of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, most African peoples would have had absolutely no idea of what the rest of the world was like. How would they have the foresight to know cannabis was not native to the Americas?
And of all things that they could have brought, why cannabis (or sesame seeds, for that matter?)? It doesn't make any sense.
There is the third question of how widespread cannabis use was in West and Central Africa at the time anyway. It seems this tall story of slaves bringing cannabis to the Americas is based on the hare-brained nonsense of Rastafarianism, and an inherantly racist perception of black people and cannabis having some kind of natural affinity.

 

[Easy7]

but that was 12000 years ago.. and I think that the oldest documented use of cannabis was 4000 or so years ago It doesn't support that hypothesis

So your saying that cannabis in the America's is only 4k years old? That sounds very interesting if true, not saying it's not.. I just need more to think about this. I am sure cannabis is older than the white boys landing on America's beaches....all of the America's beaches.

 

[Gert Lush]

Is there any proof as to the origins of cannabis? As far as I know its debatable although most agree on Asia.

Hi mate, there is no debate that it originated in Asia.

It may be debated which part exactly of Asia. Some might say Chinese Turkestan, some Yunnan, some Afghanistan, I imagine it's damn near impossible to pinpoint. Not much doubt about the Asian origin though.

Ceremonial use by the Kurghan cultures of what is today the steppes has been verified archeologically, I think as far back as 3000 BC, perhaps more.

====

As for American cannabis, since that was the OP's question, I suppose there is a small chance it came in with the Spanish, the Moorish element was well acquainted with ganja. This theory also gives a good timeframe for the establishment of Mexi and Colobian landraces.
Like others, I doubt it came in with African slaves, being chained naked in a hold stuffed with a bunch of dying wretches is not the ideal environment for transporting seeds.
Far, far, more likely it came in with Indian labourers.
North American hemp is a different story. It was planted by settlers as a valuable crop, for fibre mainly, I do think at one stage you were compelled by law to plant it.

 

[Gert Lush]

To say that cannabis did not exist prior to what we know as "first contact" with the new world is laughable. Come on guys... really? No one is saying its use was wide spread. But it did exist.

Really? You have some evidence? Or are you just mouthing off to be unpleasant?

Perhaps you also have evidence that tobacco existed in the Old World. Not in huge amounts of course. But it did exist. Just because our primary school teacher said that id did not exist, doesn't mean we must believe her, eh?

 

[Gert Lush]

Kinda racist...

What on earth do you see as racist in swayambunath's comment?

Please explain, otherwise do not make ludiocrous and inflammatory accusations.

 

[Gert Lush]

So your saying that cannabis in the America's is only 4k years old? That sounds very interesting if true, not saying it's not.. I just need more to think about this. I am sure cannabis is older than the white boys landing on America's beaches....all of the America's beaches.

No, what's being said is that cannabis has been in the Americas for (at most) 500 years. That is, if it came with the Conquistadors, which is a bit of an extreme scenario. The New England pilgrims planted non-drug varieties for hemp. The good stuff is probably only 300 or so years old, originating from Asiatic labourers, as pointed out.

The 4000 year old date applies to the oldest known in Eurasia.

 

[Gert Lush]

Mapping a plants history by written records is unreliable even within the 4000 year time period, it gives us clues and evidence, not proof.
I do not subscribe to the consensus opinion on migration dates and "discoveries" of new lands, as there is much conflicting evidence.

Although it does seem the most likely origin of cannabis is Asia, It should be open to debate.

The 4000-5000 year map is not based on written records. Written records only exist to at most 1000 BC. The evidence in use is mainly archaeological from digs at burial sites, examination of old "kitchens" and cooking hearths etc.

There is not much conflicting evidence on discoveries of "new lands" by the way

 

[med-man]

i would be nice to see something "verifiable" guys. and no one is debating anything here to be racists or ignorant, so please try to keep the flaming to a minimal.

example = hemp rope is found in egypt, even though its hard to find a hyroglyph with hemp in it.

also, the oldest bag of weed came from the highlands arrrounbd eurasia circa 2500 bc, with a mumified princess and her huge burial site.

the real question still is, is cannabis native to north america or not? even before the landbridge? i gues 12000years of acclimation would make it landrace by that point.

i still think afganistan an or north india s where it originated, but dont have any genetic proof for it...

med-man

 

[OLDproLg]

Asia...

Where MOST of the beautiful plants are from...
unbelievable what they have given man!!!

 

[OverEagerBeaver]

The oldest archeological record of drug use cannabis dates to about 2700 yrs ago in the Xinjiang province of China http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/59/15/4171.full

It seems to me the most likely spread of drug cannabis is that of the silk road. If you look at a map of the silk road you'll see it encompasses just about every region known for having great cannabis. Perhaps all these regions share the same common source, and acclimatization and isolated populations account for their divergences today.

I highly doubt cannabis was brought to the "new world" via the land bridge. Human populations at that time were still hunters/ gatherers, If they were carrying seeds it was to eat them not plant them and any seeds they had with them would have been exhausted by the time they reached a climate suitable for cultivation of cannabis (Imho)

As for the Transatlantic Slave trade, we would first have to predispose that drug cannabis is native to Africa, something I'm not sure we can do. If you look at the major regions noted for cannabis production in Africa, you'll note there proximity to historical trade routes and ports..... Durban Poison anyone? Again perhaps African genetics came from Asia and acclimatised and became uniquely African over subsequent generations.

That leaves us with the already mentioned and to me most likely case that drug cannabis was brought to the "new world" within the past few hundred yrs by Asian labourers.

 

[swayambunath]

Kinda racist...

Uncool.

 

[IWanaGetHiSoHi]

Prescribed by a Tongue In Cheek Non Doctor and to be taken with a grain of salt ... Durga, in search of anything to try and keep her husband from copulating with human women (Read - Cheating on her), found the ganja in the foothills of the Himalayas. She was seen tending the Original Crop by mortals and they decided that trying the herb might make them Godlike too. The rest is history. A God found it and Humans spread it. Yeah ... The worlds first human potheads were rippers ...

 

[Corpsey]

also, the oldest bag of weed came from the highlands arrrounbd eurasia circa 10,000 bc, with a mumified princess and her huge burial site.

can you provide a link?

i tried looking this up and the closest thing i could find were the tarim mummies, one of them had a bag of cannabis but they are about 2000-4000 years old.
and i also see the Serbian ice princess that had a bag of cannabis with her, but that was 2,500 years ago.

 

[Hempsmoke]

Hey
I really doubt cannabis was known to the natives in america before the colonialization since they used other materials for ropes and cloth. baskets etc.
Hemp (cannabis sativa) was introduced to america by the spanish conquistadores , since hemp was a plant that accompained the spanish everywhere they went.
The indian immigrants that came to the us and carribean a century (or 2) later brought ganja with them, indian hemp, just like the chinese did with opium.

I dont thinik ive got to mention that hemp was not known as low thc plant back then.
So the spanish brought their sativa and the indians brought their indica with them.
This explains the colombian, mexican...landraces which happen to be sativa (dominant) plants, and thats why there is such a big variation in strains in jamaica since first the spanish brought their hemp and then the indians brought the ganja (= indian word).

Oh btw i read somewhere back in the day when cannabis medicine was legal farmers said like 5 plants per foot for if u grow for fibre and 1 plant per 2 foots if you grow medicine.
Dont nail me on the numbers it was long ago and i was stoned, but you get what i mean i hope xD

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]black people and cannabis having some kind of natural affinity.[/FONT]

I know its kinda racist but thats exactly what i think when i see black people
same like jews and gold xD

 

[BugJar]

Is there any proof as to the origins of cannabis? As far as I know its debatable although most agree on Asia.

born on king solomons grave *wink*

 

[Easy7]

Any chance it all came from Africa?

I would think that natives brought, medicine over the land bridge. Most weed had seeds then, right?

 

[mexcurandero420]

Norwegian Vikings grew hemp

Evidence of Viking Outpost Found in Canada

DNA study links indigenous Brazilians to Polynesians

Keep on growing

 

[burningfire]

View Image

Keep on growing

I've watched a few of the videos from Gunnar Thompson and he clearly sees what he wants to see in these pictures.

the plants depicted in the egyptian drawings are clearly Egyptian wheat

and there are a few examples I saw from him that are just ridiculous. he analyzes artist's depictions of hieroglyphs and paints them green and yellow to support his theory.