The Origin Of Cannabis

[BOMBAYCAT]

Hey Englishrick: How do you feel about a paper (German) published in Springer Nature 2019. They are talking about the origin of WILD Cannabis. They did a pollen study and stated that wild Cannabis originated on the Tibetan Plateau in China near Qinghai Lake. Their method was to use pollen studies and trace Cannabis back to the beginning. I see a bit of a problem with this study. There was a gap where they used Artemisia pollen which is almost always found growing with Cannabis. Artemisia is a short shrub normally found in dry or semi arid climates. I would feel better if they actually found Cannabis pollen in the gap. Wild Cannabis could have originated in the usual areas, but so long ago I don't see how they could pin it down so exactly.

 

[gonanchoa]

Hi Roms,

I agree most you say is true, specially the bit regarding sampling of NLDA pollen. Garbage in - garbage out.

I found this map and research paper which are pretty good IMO regarding the pacific colonisation:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...n-archipelagos-including-those_fig1_332176956

Have to disagree in mixing up the Bering bridge migration with pacific islands colonisation, they where two different periods. Also there is a big jump from most Eastern islands to America, so I don't think they did it that often. Although their boat sailed pretty well, they didn't have the load capacity and couldn't sail as far away as Naos ships when Spanish discovered America. If there was cannabis in south america, which spanish used for their boats, there would be records of it. Maybe we can find a trace somewhere from an early exchange, but what I think is clear, is that cannabis wasn't widespread in south america at spanish arrival.

Rapanuis could colonise most islands because the trip would be short between them. Hawaii and Easter island are closer to the islands in the east pacific than america. As the paper says, at some point, the rapanuis didn't have trees bigger than 3m and were isolated because they couldn't build their ships as strong. Sailing across the ocean looks easy drawing lines on a map, 3000 miles at 6 knots are aprox 20 days sailing, and at 4 knots its 30 days: imagine in a camping-van for 20/30 days w/o supplies, just fresh water supply would be a problem. For them reaching Hawaii and Easter Island must have been epic.

What I can't find is information regarding Rapanui/polynesians and cannabis. Seems they needed cannabis for moving the moais, (and I think in that case it's quite reasonable they use it for their ships), can't find other references in their culture as smoking. Anyone?

 

[gonanchoa]

Hey Englishrick: How do you feel about a paper (German) published in Springer Nature 2019. They are talking about the origin of WILD Cannabis. They did a pollen study and stated that wild Cannabis originated on the Tibetan Plateau in China near Qinghai Lake. Their method was to use pollen studies and trace Cannabis back to the beginning. I see a bit of a problem with this study. There was a gap where they used Artemisia pollen which is almost always found growing with Cannabis. Artemisia is a short shrub normally found in dry or semi arid climates. I would feel better if they actually found Cannabis pollen in the gap. Wild Cannabis could have originated in the usual areas, but so long ago I don't see how they could pin it down so exactly.

probably looking for pollen on the ground and dating it. IDK really.


Manchuria is another theory from a chinese paper, seems there is more genetic diversity there.

 

[GoatCheese]

I like the Qinghai Lake area-theory because it involves HUGE environmental forcing from the Indian plate colliding with the Eurasian plate, which eventually created the Himalayans and the Tibetan plateau. This had huge impact on vegetation and forests (trees disappear) and with more open area the area becomes more windy.

So when forests start to change and eventually disappear life for a bushy, viney - climbing plant like hops starts to become very difficult, esp. when the winds start to pick up.

 

[Roms]

(...) Maybe we can find a trace somewhere from an early exchange, but what I think is clear, is that cannabis wasn't widespread in south america at spanish arrival.

If we consider the cannabis fossil pollen found 2200 BP in Madagascar as from Austronesian origin we can deduce that they were also able to spread their seeds to Hawaii and Polynesia. And it's all about cannabis and not hemp, evolution of hemp differs a lot from cannabis, hemp is differently and simply related to high latitude evolution. An important notion also is that during the last glacial era the sea level was more than 100 m lower, Pacific ocean map was really different with bigger islands et cetera and the climatic good place for cannabis was there in equatorial and tropical region and not in China so ?

Imho cannabis was widespread in Mesoamerica thousands of years before the arrival of hemp from conquistadors (hemp arrived earlier in North America from North Europa btw) and Polynesia know cannabis pakalolo before the 70s lol no doubt for me but yes we need evidences. Except from fossil pollen it's really difficult to find something nowadays, Polynesian and/or Hawaii wise old mystic people must know something trace, oral cultures transmit their knowledge through songs for exemple, maybe something to find in this way ?

 

[gonanchoa]

If we consider the cannabis fossil pollen found 2200 BP in Madagascar as from Autronesian origin we can deduce that they were also able to spread their seeds to Hawaii and Polynesia. And it's all about cannabis and not hemp, evolution of hemp differs a lot from cannabis, hemp is differently and simply related to high latitude evolution. An important notion also is that during the last glacial era the sea level was more than 100 m lower, Pacific ocean map was really different with bigger islands et cetera and the climatic good place for cannabis was there in equatorial and tropical region and not in China so ?

Imho cannabis was widespread in Mesoamerica thousands of years before the arrival of hemp from conquistadors (hemp arrived earlier in North America from North Europa btw) and Polynesia know cannabis pakalolo before the 70s lol no doubt for me but yes we need evidences. Except from fossil pollen it's really difficult to find something nowadays, Polynesian and/or Hawaii wise old mystic people must know something trace, oral cultures transmit their knowledge through songs for exemple, maybe something to find in this way ?

I agree it could be wide-spread in the pacific islands! do you have more info on pakololo or cannabis in hawaii? I would appreciate sharing that knowledge or related myths.

There is a theory that argues that southamericans colonised easter island and others between 1400-1000 years ago. Thats why you find sweet potato in Cook island 1000 years ago. There is also an oral tradition that says how there were 2 tribes (long and short ears) and one was slaughtered by the other. Rapanui culture and evidence suggests they colonised Easter island 1200-1000 years ago. Could the slaughtered tribe be south americans? and only few woman were kept thats why you find some S.American genes in them? I really don't know. This theory was discredited because it comes from oral tradition.

Later on Polynesians were isolated because trees disappeared in the island, they lost the sailing technology. As stated, polynesians ships were probably very efficient for cruising between islands; but didn't have the load carrying capacity and were not as seaworthy as Naos-Galeones that allowed trade between continents.

Thus, I agree there was contact in south america before spanish arrival; the same with vikings through the north route. I even bet there were rumours around Europe that the earth was not flat and if you sailed west, you would get to India instead of falling off a cliff; Colon thought he had arrived to India and died not knowing he had discovered a completely different continent. Therefore, maybe someone had already gone and came back. On the other hand, they didn't have the technology to establish trading routes between continents as Spanish and Portugal did at the time. Thats why I still consider Spanish discovered America, and it was a first step toward the first circumnavigation of the world by Elcano (Magallanes never finished it).

Also I doubt about wide-spread use drug cannabis because as stated, Europeans knew about hemp, the sails and ropes of their ships were made with hemp. They brought tobacco smoking back from the americas, I bet they would be surprised by the "hemp" plant that had drug effects when smoked as tobacco.

 

[englishrick]

I've not check it,,,but I'm already kinda sceptical,,,il have a look when I get chance,,,

 

[Roms]

"From ancient Asia to pre-Columbian America"

https://books.google.fr/books?id=9aN...9rique&f=false

 

[Roms]

Over 12000 BCE ^^

 

[seshata]

Vibes to Seshata who wrote and worked the article.
https://sensiseeds.com/en/blog/cannabis-archaeology-palaeobotany/

Thank you! I really need to get back into writing about landraces and cannabis history. If anyone is interested in reading any more of my articles I'm happy to post more

 

[Roms]

Happy Spring to you @seshata and have fun at work! NLD and BLD ancestors need more scientific research, in line with mysticism to develop new centers of exploration to study new fossil pollen i think.

This last great study as springboard The Japanese data are very interesting to turn the cap towards South Pacific Ocean and its people. Anthropology goes together with cannabis evolution! Big up to Austronesian, Indonesian, Oceanian, Polynesian.

Cannabis in Asia its center of origin and early cultivation, based on a synthesis of subfossil pollen and archaeobotanical studies.pdf (851.5 KB)

 

[sublingual]

The earliest Polynesian settlement in Hawaii was about 800 CE, possibly as late as 1200 CE. Cannabis was unknown to most Hawaiians until the Vietnam War when some brought back seeds. Duckfoot strain in Hawaii was known as "Elephant" because the leaves looked like the ears and trunk the animal.
Of course its impossible to know who has what and what was preserved from the imports of those early days in the 60s. My hunch is that very little to nothing was preserved.
It was surprising to encounter people in Amsterdam, coming from a half of world away, Hawaii, all to buy seeds to grow back home.

 

[Genghis Kush.]

Hawaiian weed was far far superior to Dutch weed before operation green harvest arrested all the old growers in the 80s . most of the old strains were lost to the police or hybridized since at the same time Dutch weed was being super hyped.
Being able to legally purchase good seeds in Amsterdam seemed like a dream.

Honolulu was a wild port town in the 1800s, Opium Dens and whore houses and general debauchery .
ships were stopping there that came from all over the world. And sailors were known for enjoying Cannabis.

“Pakalolo is the Hawaiian word for cannabis and it literally means “crazy tobacco.” The chronicled use of cannabis in the Hawaiian Islands, appearing in the Hawaiian Language Newspaper Ka Nonanona, goes as far back as the year 1842 – though cannabis use probably goes back much further. Advertisements for medical cannabis continued in Hawaiian newspapers throughout the 19th century.”

 

[Genghis Kush.]

Happy Spring to you @seshata and have fun at work! NLD and BLD ancestors need more scientific research, in line with mysticism to develop new centers of exploration to study new fossil pollen i think.

This last great study as springboard The Japanese data are very interesting to turn the cap towards South Pacific Ocean and its people. Anthropology goes together with cannabis evolution! Big up to Austronesian, Indonesian, Oceanian, Polynesian.

View attachment 18824299

Cannabis in Asia its center of origin and early cultivation, based on a synthesis of subfossil pollen and archaeobotanical studies.pdf (851.5 KB)

Great find,, Roms !


there is the Fibre find from 4000BP next to Taiwan - the origin of the Austronesian peoples

 

[Roms]

Ya bro Pakalolo NLDA is way more older than Rican and Dutch reunited lol and both shit on it by rename or invent four way cross haze lol all a bunch of liars and thieves all as stupid as each other. Soon come the new golden age of cannabis and landraces awakening, this will mark the end of the blablabla false flag empire. BoOmbOoM

 

[chilliwilli]