The Nevils Haze and Nevils Haze hybrids discussion thread.

[harvestreaper]

Not sure if you're interested but I have a germ technique that seems to work quite well on difficult seeds. I get 100% on mildly difficult
A mixture of advice from different people and something Tom said about tissue culture requiring light for photosynthesis prompted me to come up with this method

1) mix 10ml 3% hydrogen peroxide with 250ml rainwater in a clear jar with a lid (thanks @@hempy )
2) place the seeds in the jar and leave under a cloning light 18/6 (not in the dark as many suggest)
3) after 24hours you might see a tongue but leave to 48hrs and the husk should have softened and the tongue well visible
4) Thoroughly wet some Canna coco with 0.9EC salts and roughly 6.0-6.5pH and squeeze out excess water and place in 2L pots
5) Bury the partly sprouted seed a good 10mm (3/8") deep. Too shallow and it won't get the husk off. Should take about 2-3 days to surface at 25°C

This whole process is done in a cloning tent at 25°C (77°F)
The 2L pot will ensure they don't need watering for quite a while and because you squeezed it out the moisture level should be perfect to support oxygenation. You don't want to drown them
I also spray the area where the pots are sitting with surface bug spray so no springtails etc can climb aboard. People say they're harmless but I've seen them feeding inside seeds as they hatch which is another reason I leave the seed floating in the jar for a reasonable time

If you finish stage 3) and nothing has happened you can try to leave a little longer, another 12- 24hrs maybe and possibly a gentle air stone but It doesn't normally take this long. The hydrogen peroxide seems to add oxygen anyway but use your own instincts if it takes this long. Alternately remove from the jar at 48hrs regardless and plant in the pot with cling wrap over it or a sheet of clear plastic/glass to keep the moisture constant and wait

thankyou @StickyBandit ,,very kind of you to type that out for me ,much appreciated ill give it a wirl ,,altho ive not had a ph or e c meter for a while will need to aquire them first ,good timing tho ive been throwing old badly stored seeds in 50 at a time straight in dirt lately only got a very few to germ ,,like 3 came up out of 150/200 ,,,if the tekneek works for me ill be sure to let you know ,thanks again ,,

 

[Morphote]

The ward elite in reference to cannabis I first saw on the forums and the one question I had to ask was if these clones are so good then why are they being replaced by a new elite clone 6 months later ? It's like a clone is hypes seed is made, then the cycle continues that's replaced by a new one.

I have found lots of great plants over the years but keeping them long term is impossible, sharing them with the people I know is again impossible as most just want to run seed.

We have the Good/Ok/Shit rating system here and to keep good genetics long term the only real viable option is to have viable seed made from these stand out plants.

Great question. I will answer with what happened to me with the 213 OG Kush. I kept it as long as I could. Even when I moved I took it with me. Had it in the passenger seat. Had it in Silver Lake, then took it to Monrovia, then back to Glendale. At the time there were several other OGs to choose from, but this was the one I liked. Skywalker OG, Larry OG, Tahoe OG, the list goes on, people would debate the best OG. Now the problem with the cut was the smell. One clone of this would stink up a house. When flowered it had a deep dark dank sweet smell that was intoxicating to me but nearly impossible to mask. Very scary to grow. I provided as many cuts as I could to my local dispensary. This was back when dispensaries were relatively new and trying to figure out how they were going to operate (2006-7). Had to stand in front of the camera and get buzzed in back in those days, now they have armed security and ID verification. I thought the cut would always be around. I guess you/we get lazy, but you start to think you can have that cut anytime you want and people are naturally going to continue to propagate your plant. You take it for granted.

When I moved from Glendale to El Segundo I couldn't take the cut with me. It never occurred to me I would never get it back. Besides, by then there were so many other OGs that maybe my OG was not the best one. I branched out and started growing Blue Dragon, went and met DJ Short (2010) and grew his Blueberry and his son's Whitaker Blues, then moved on to cuts like Larry OG, pre-98 Bubba Kush, and started testing seed for Shantibaba at MNS. Really you get yourself in a situation where you have so many choices that you think everything will always be available, and that' just not true. Fires happen. Diseases happen. Girlfriends happen. People get raided, cuts get lost and renamed, and next thing you know either you're the only one with the cut, or you can no longer find the cut. Example : only days after I shared Blue Dragon with a dispensary in Westchester someone burned it to the ground. I gave them my mother plant, so that they could take cuts and sell them. That's how I lost an already impossible to find cut. Haven't seen her since. It happens that fast.

So, long story longer, it a world full of elite cuts we lose sight. It's like a kid in a candy store. You smoke so much 213 OG Kush that it becomes boring. You hear about other cuts and you want to know. From the outside looking in it's pure insanity, but on the inside it's just normal. Then, down the line you're growing something new and thinking to yourself it's not as good as what I had, and then it's too late. Your cut is either gone or renamed or crossed to something else. In some other cases, it's just disease, pests, viruses, or genetic drift (some of these cuts have been through hell and back and it shows). My advice: get your elite cuts out to as many people as possible, including friends. Create seed lines with those cuts so you at least have something to play with down the line. I'm happy I have a few seeds of Larry OG, DJs F13, and a few others. I wish I had male pollen to hit the 213 OG Kush but I just wasn't there yet in my evolution as a grower. I didn't start playing with pollen until I grew Whitaker Blues because we were all taught to toss the males. When I met you hempy I had just discovered MNS (2009/10) and had many questions about males, and that's when I started thinking about making my own seed.

And I suppose that's where we lose cuts. In the land of elites, the only seeds are S1s, and those can be absolutely wonderful. I know they have a bad rap, but in Los Angeles they are gold. Males are not kept, pollen isn't a thing, they only want dank, and they want it now. They like the newest latest greatest dank, and they are always hyping this and that up, so you never really know if what you have is the best, and it makes you wonder. Next thing you know, you are playing with other genetics and you can't get back your old cut. And you're left telling stories of a cut that very few will remember, that you know was amazing, kind of like looking back on past relationships. It's like Dave said: "It's a typical situation in these typical times. Too many choices."



Such is life.

M.

 

[Stoneguru]

Seems like a bold statement. I wonder what elite cuts you have seen. I've seen quite a few and I would never say that. I definitely agree with making seeds with elite cuts. Access to the elites is a privilege and an honor not to be taken for granted. Most people just hear about these cuts. I think more people should experience them. (Chem 91, Green Crack, DJ's F13, Blue Dragon, 213 OG Kush, DJ's Blueberry, Headband, Trainwreck, Blue Dream, etc). Even the lesser known regional elite cuts that I have grown are priceless: Texas Shoreline, The Nectar, and Texas Hashplant are all worth a run, even if you don't necessarily like them. The fact that you ran/bred 4 cuts speaks for itself. How were the progeny?

M.

It was a bold statement mostly in response to down playing seed. It's my preference. I have grown thousands from seed. I grow for the hunt, the unknown and with enough work and time it pays off to become equal to the elite cuts.

I didn't say I haven't smoked them and I am glad they are around so people can put them in production for others to experience. For business and custies elite cuts are essential.

Where do all elites comes from? The people who enjoy and practice the same as me. Not phase by the hunt, enjoying the process and finding the next one.

Blue Dream is a good example. I ran about 12 packs of Bodhi's Dream Lotus. An outstanding make all around. 1/4 were on par with the SCBD.

One was significantly better than Blue Dream on profile and effect.

The statement was in response to seed. The reality is 30-100 of a seed line will generally be equal or better than the parents.

Breeders know that. It is a major reason for outcrossing or limiting certain releases.

Cuts are great too, but between accepting the most highly prized cut and running 1000 seed I would choose the latter.

Most of the elite cuts I find get run twice and put in storage. Once I know what they are I want to find the next.

To each there own though

 

[Stoneguru]

The fact that you ran/bred 4 cuts speaks for itself. How were the progeny?

It depends on the cross. Some work and some don't. In the crosses that do A percentage of progeny will outshine either parent in ~100 plants.

All elites plants come from seed and the people who hunted them. Many communities are in echo chambers of cuts and S1, not really adventurous outside of that.

Haze is a good example. The quality is raising across the country because people are collectively popping 10's of thousands of seed, crossing, selecting, developing and improving them year over year.

 

[Stoneguru]

@Stoneguru what is the lineage of this male of your Alpine 1.0 Haze aka Frosty Boy? He seems to have a little frost on the stems...
I still have him in the clone tent

View attachment 19184433

Was that one with frankincense or more ozone? It looks like it might lean to the male which would be awesome. If that gets on your THH select we have to talk

 

[Stoneguru]

Great question. I will answer with what happened to me with the 213 OG Kush. I kept it as long as I could. Even when I moved I took it with me. Had it in the passenger seat. Had it in Silver Lake, then took it to Monrovia, then back to Glendale. At the time there were several other OGs to choose from, but this was the one I liked. Skywalker OG, Larry OG, Tahoe OG, the list goes on, people would debate the best OG. Now the problem with the cut was the smell. One clone of this would stink up a house. When flowered it had a deep dark dank sweet smell that was intoxicating to me but nearly impossible to mask. Very scary to grow. I provided as many cuts as I could to my local dispensary. This was back when dispensaries were relatively new and trying to figure out how they were going to operate (2006-7). Had to stand in front of the camera and get buzzed in back in those days, now they have armed security and ID verification. I thought the cut would always be around. I guess you/we get lazy, but you start to think you can have that cut anytime you want and people are naturally going to continue to propagate your plant. You take it for granted.

When I moved from Glendale to El Segundo I couldn't take the cut with me. It never occurred to me I would never get it back. Besides, by then there were so many other OGs that maybe my OG was not the best one. I branched out and started growing Blue Dragon, went and met DJ Short (2010) and grew his Blueberry and his son's Whitaker Blues, then moved on to cuts like Larry OG, pre-98 Bubba Kush, and started testing seed for Shantibaba at MNS. Really you get yourself in a situation where you have so many choices that you think everything will always be available, and that' just not true. Fires happen. Diseases happen. Girlfriends happen. People get raided, cuts get lost and renamed, and next thing you know either you're the only one with the cut, or you can no longer find the cut. Example : only days after I shared Blue Dragon with a dispensary in Westchester someone burned it to the ground. I gave them my mother plant, so that they could take cuts and sell them. That's how I lost an already impossible to find cut. Haven't seen her since. It happens that fast.

So, long story longer, it a world full of elite cuts we lose sight. It's like a kid in a candy store. You smoke so much 213 OG Kush that it becomes boring. You hear about other cuts and you want to know. From the outside looking in it's pure insanity, but on the inside it's just normal. Then, down the line you're growing something new and thinking to yourself it's not as good as what I had, and then it's too late. Your cut is either gone or renamed or crossed to something else. In some other cases, it's just disease, pests, viruses, or genetic drift (some of these cuts have been through hell and back and it shows). My advice: get your elite cuts out to as many people as possible, including friends. Create seed lines with those cuts so you at least have something to play with down the line. I'm happy I have a few seeds of Larry OG, DJs F13, and a few others. I wish I had male pollen to hit the 213 OG Kush but I just wasn't there yet in my evolution as a grower. I didn't start playing with pollen until I grew Whitaker Blues because we were all taught to toss the males. When I met you hempy I had just discovered MNS (2009/10) and had many questions about males, and that's when I started thinking about making my own seed.

And I suppose that's where we lose cuts. In the land of elites, the only seeds are S1s, and those can be absolutely wonderful. I know they have a bad rap, but in Los Angeles they are gold. Males are not kept, pollen isn't a thing, they only want dank, and they want it now. They like the newest latest greatest dank, and they are always hyping this and that up, so you never really know if what you have is the best, and it makes you wonder. Next thing you know, you are playing with other genetics and you can't get back your old cut. And you're left telling stories of a cut that very few will remember, that you know was amazing, kind of like looking back on past relationships. It's like Dave said: "It's a typical situation in these typical times. Too many choices."



Such is life.

M.

I see your perspective here. It is important that rare cuts I preserved. When I said "screw most cuts". I meant the hyper focus bottle neck. Not to discontinue or lose them. It's a lot of work to hunt all the seed and elites are what is being sought.

 

[MrKushman247]

here's my clone of Neville's Haze. ran a bunch from seed, kept this one. Bought the seeds from mns...blue packs...I think I cut this at 15 weeks. Classic Haze smell. Probably gonna run her again soon. Made shitloads of f2s and hybrids. haven't even touched those got em stored away in the seed fridge ... anywho she's a nice plant.
Grown under 200w of led

 

[MrKushman247]

Neville's Haze

 

[@hempy]

I have always been a seed guy, back in the day when I started we had no seed retail you got seed from people, or you found seed in imports they were your choices. When you found lines you really liked you made seed if you wanted to re grow it, no one kept clones.

So breeding making seed was normal for us and an important part of growing.

So it's instinctive for me to make seed when I find really nice plants and preserve the lines I like don't get me wrong I keep clones now and have for almost 3 decades but shit as you know happens, and they can get lost.

 

[@hempy]

Have you seen many recessive phenotypes popping out of your 97 NH? ..there seems to be the pearly type plant atleast, have you seen others?

I was wondering because the Haze C male seems to split into different archetype sativas so i imagine the Haze A males did as well. I mean the Haze C influence in G13 Haze and Afghan Haze seem to be based on different archetypes/ancestor types

The Nevil's Haze has two main sides, the HzA and HzC now in the early days I most didn't have a clue of what was what I knew what I was seeing were both sides of the haze and what I was smoking as in the type of effects I was finding, but Nevil helped me connect the dots.

Now I know what's what and I managed to lock in both sides in the F2s and really locked them into the F3s and I can throw set F3s down and get the HzC types or throw set seed down and get HzA types now.

 

[fullymelted]

some lovely plants there @Stoneguru ,,the jb was a solid strain ,,good commercially with quality effects ,,tried to germ some old seeds last year but none sprouted i had a lot of fun growing out jb crosses to the doors and g13/haze amongst others but my favs were to an azure haze female really complimented each other

i sent 50 beans of mex brick pack from the 80s out for rescue and got decent results, none would germinate on my end but they got a good population off the seed stock i sent. Im more excited about those than anyting else

 

[fullymelted]

I have always been a seed guy, back in the day when I started we had no seed retail you got seed from people, or you found seed in imports they were your choices. When you found lines you really liked you made seed if you wanted to re grow it, no one kept clones.

So breeding making seed was normal for us and an important part of growing.

So it's instinctive for me to make seed when I find really nice plants and preserve the lines I like don't get me wrong I keep clones now and have for almost 3 decades but shit as you know happens, and they can get lost.

even while holding heirlooms and growing moncrops of them i have always preferred seed. the lottery / the gamble/ the chance to find "the one". thats why we all do it right? chase the dragon lol.
i always get blessed by the bagseed gods. I cannot even count how many times i popped some seed i found in some really good weed and it came out even better than the weed i got it in.

 

[harvestreaper]

back in late 80s here in uk i had nl/,,sk ,,/haze 5/skaze clones this was the beginning of indoor growing here these were by far the best of there variety's available at the time not so hard to be back then , i dealt out many clones most would be on a commercial plan so would be warned to not flo haze f5 or skaze to big most would ingnore the warning grown them two foot before flo then ring me up with tails of burnt plants overgrowing there space lol so in the end the most popular was sk and nl ,,,,to this day ive not had better examples of those clones everyyear it seemed to get weaker ,,someone would show up an say i got the real nl wed try it was weak im talking even by mid 90s,,,same with the haze hybrids ,,ive not had samples of any of the old clones the dutch boys kept going from that era but here in uk nothing better replaced them and it was losing them i think that got me poppin seeds in the first place lol,,ive never tried any of the modern clones either an i started breeding blueberrys to hazes when an american friend would tell me about this cut called blue dream he was enjoying that i couldnt get my hands on over here lol

 

[fullymelted]

back in late 80s here in uk i had nl/,,sk ,,/haze 5/skaze clones this was the beginning of indoor growing here these were by far the best of there variety's available at the time not so hard to be back then , i dealt out many clones most would be on a commercial plan so would be warned to not flo haze f5 or skaze to big most would ingnore the warning grown them two foot before flo then ring me up with tails of burnt plants overgrowing there space lol so in the end the most popular was sk and nl ,,,,to this day ive not had better examples of those clones everyyear it seemed to get weaker ,,someone would show up an say i got the real nl wed try it was weak im talking even by mid 90s,,,same with the haze hybrids ,,ive not had samples of any of the old clones the dutch boys kept going from that era but here in uk nothing better replaced them and it was losing them i think that got me poppin seeds in the first place lol,,ive never tried any of the modern clones either an i started breeding blueberrys to hazes when an american friend would tell me about this cut called blue dream he was enjoying that i couldnt get my hands on over here lol

I made instagram post asking for old old seed stock, with proof, pics, stuff peopels dads might have had etc etc
the old manager of nirvana in holland 1998-2003 offered to send me a massive collection of their breeder stock, old old stuff. that is on the way.
I had several people show me old seeds from the 70s, thier dads, uncles gpa etc. sent me bunch of those from all over the usa, several people. (bunch of pictures and stuff included)
i also had someone who i used to buy bricks of mex weed off of,
back when they were lime green compressed chronic, with little seeds, no stems or leaf etc send me a few hundreds of the seeds he collected out of the acrid lime green skunky compressed chronic from early 2000s.
i have 7 seeds i found in mexico from some of that exact same bud/farm.
that skunk acrid real skunk is mexican, and unless the mexicans were buying dutch seed or knew someone in the triangle, im pretty sure mexico is the birthplace of that skunky weed.
i cant wait to see the nl/sk lines in the old dutch stuff but im not crossing my fingers
these mex seeds are where its at for me, the smells ive already found are closer than any skunk1 , super skunk, dutch skunk ive come across in hundreds of seeds.

 

[fullymelted]

Are you feeding the substrate or spraying the plant?

Just spray because I want some to stay male. I did clone the male though and the original is alive. Will be comparing his offspring.

One thing I don't have is a good female representation of the P1 mom of the male I started with even tho the males sisters are close I didn't even keep one lol I have to re pop some of those f1s

 

[DannyDiesel]

Just spray because I want some to stay male. I did clone the male though and the original is alive. Will be comparing his offspring.

One thing I don't have is a good female representation of the P1 mom of the male I started with even tho the males sisters are close I didn't even keep one lol I have to re pop some of those f1s

Thanks. I’m going to be using that on 5 or 6 males. Makes sense to have a female from the original stock to check your work against.

I’m looking at the skunk offerings from hyp3brids because they’re heavy Mexican recreations. Left us know what you find in those seeds you got there.

 

[fullymelted]

Thanks. I’m going to be using that on 5 or 6 males. Makes sense to have a female from the original stock to check your work against.

I’m looking at the skunk offerings from hyp3brids because they’re heavy Mexican recreations. Left us know what you find in those seeds you got there.
View attachment 19184924

I will be sharing
if someone(s) would like to donate some male haze, not some random male but like, maybe a male they find/found in a really good batch of seed, that i can reverse and work down to s3's male only, i would love to add an old word haze other than ohaze from ag to this project!

 

[fullymelted]

I will be sharing
if someone(s) would like to donate some male haze, not some random male but like, maybe a male they find/found in a really good batch of seed, that i can reverse and work down to s3's male only, i would love to add an old word haze other than ohaze from ag to this project!
i want to find a male that spits pearl phenos in its offspring and reverse him to see if there are recessive expressive pearl phenos in the fem population.

 

[fullymelted]

Thanks. I’m going to be using that on 5 or 6 males. Makes sense to have a female from the original stock to check your work against.

I’m looking at the skunk offerings from hyp3brids because they’re heavy Mexican recreations. Left us know what you find in those seeds you got there.
View attachment 19184924

do it..
another biochemist who is far superior to me, messaged me and broke down some of the science and corrected a bit of my theory.
heres a quick rundown
regular female is x1x2, (heterozygous) male from that female only gets x1 .
when you self the son to make female seed, they are x1x1 homozygous
the offspring recombine, showing recessive traits 100%, it is not a rumor or idea its fact.
the part i was wrong, is the s1 seed from the male, all the females will be very close to each other, sister wise, but NOT like the p1 mom becuase its half her dna recombined, whatever dominance the missing x2 was bringing forward is replaced by the alternate copy of x1 recessive side.
confirmed by peer review.

this means that the s1 seeds will be very close to each other but not like the mom.
s2 seeds will be even closer to each other sister wise, but again totally different from the p1 mom AND different from the s1 females.

each time you self the male in a new generation it recombines the moms x1x1 and you see new traits.
since ALL fems that come from the male only plant can be x1x1,,, at any time... any female you find is TRUE breeder homozygous plant. be it s1s to lock that phenotype in, or hit with the same relative male, as long as x2 does not get added back by outcrossing or bx to the original mother, there cannot be x2 traits in ANY of these plants.
now we just need enough of us actually doing it.


You work your skunk male down to s2, ill work sams skunk to s2
lets cross our s2 males and females both ways.....

All of our crosses. every female that could ever come as long as it stays between our two lines, will be x1x1

When you take two unrelated males, self them to S2 generation, and then cross their lines together:

• The first male line produces X1X1 females and X1Y1 males (call this X1A)
• The second male line produces X1X1 females and X1Y1 males (call this X1B)

When you cross these lines (female from first × male from second and vice versa):

• X1A X1A female × X1B Y1B male = X1A X1B females and X1A Y1B males
• X1B X1B female × X1A Y1A male = X1B X1A females and X1B Y1A males

All the resulting females will be X1X1 combinations, but with different "versions" of X1 (X1A X1B). They won't contain any X2 chromosomes because those were lost when you started the inbreeding process with the males.


All of these crosses will show significant variation. Despite both parents being stabilized to S2 generation, they come from completely different genetic backgrounds. When these diverse but homozygous lines meet, you'll get hybrid vigor (heterosis) combined with expression of different recessive traits from each line.


This approach creates novel combinations of traits that would never appear in either original line alone. It's essentially creating F1 hybrids between two inbred lines, which is a powerful breeding technique.
im ONLY breeding x1x1 plants forever now. its decided.

 

[@hempy]

back in late 80s here in uk i had nl/,,sk ,,/haze 5/skaze clones this was the beginning of indoor growing here these were by far the best of there variety's available at the time not so hard to be back then , i dealt out many clones most would be on a commercial plan so would be warned to not flo haze f5 or skaze to big most would ingnore the warning grown them two foot before flo then ring me up with tails of burnt plants overgrowing there space lol so in the end the most popular was sk and nl ,,,,to this day ive not had better examples of those clones everyyear it seemed to get weaker ,,someone would show up an say i got the real nl wed try it was weak im talking even by mid 90s,,,same with the haze hybrids ,,ive not had samples of any of the old clones the dutch boys kept going from that era but here in uk nothing better replaced them and it was losing them i think that got me poppin seeds in the first place lol,,ive never tried any of the modern clones either an i started breeding blueberrys to hazes when an american friend would tell me about this cut called blue dream he was enjoying that i couldnt get my hands on over here lol

The first clone I ever grew was in the late 90s, and I have only ever grown 2 clones that I have not selected my self. Up until then all I grew was seed, and the lines I grew were all homogeneous true breeding.

The first Dutch lines I grew was in 86, and I ended up throwing all the harvests in the bin I thought the lines were complete rubbish, and they were compared to what I was growing and what friends were growing.

Then I re grew Dutch lines again in 99/2000 first being Nevil's Haze I became a convert but how I grew changed as now I had to run seed numbers select threw the plants I grew find keepers keep clones.