The myth, of the high P myth?

[LivingCanvas]

I might suggest adding your epsom first and let the solution/tank stir. The precipitate is Ca+SO4 which creates Gypsum and falls out of solution as it is insoluble. I always and my CaNO3 last to avoid precipitation.

 

[LivingCanvas]

Nitrogen toxicity. Excess NO3 will stunt growth, and Nitrate nitrogen requires a lot of the plants energy to translocate/process it. I would make an educated guess from my experience and others comments on this thread, that that may be why people keep nitrogen higher through stretch, and then raise the P ~week 3 ~80-90ppm and cut back nitrogen in week 4.

 

[MrBungle]

I keep my NO3 constant through out the plants life.... and bump my NH4 in veg through stretch then cut the NH4 to whats in the Calcium Nitrate the last few weeks

I start bumping my P and K 10-12 days into flower bump the K a lil more later in flower.. then start to taper off at the end

And if you are using potassium silicate I would dissolve that into solution first and adjust the pH down before you begin dissolving other salts into the solution.. and yes save CaNO3 for last

 

[LivingCanvas]

I keep my NO3 constant through out the plants life.... and bump my NH4 in veg through stretch then cut the NH4 to whats in the Calcium Nitrate the last few weeks

I start bumping my P and K 10-12 days into flower bump the K a lil more later in flower.. then start to taper off at the end

And if you are using potassium silicate I would dissolve that into solution first and adjust the pH down before you begin dissolving other salts into the solution.. and yes save CaNO3 for last

Apparenly SiO2 changes form above a pH of 8, so yes, for sure adding it first. I've seen the cloudy effects for adding it later on which means falling out of solution.

I am trying to simply use this recipe in a "target" ppm recipe without changing ratios of elements.

I manage/am the head grower for a 50,000sq ft 1.5mega watt grow and I know it is smarter for the company owners to run bulk ferts as opposed to what they currently buy from local hydroponic stores. I worked for the store we buy from for 2.5 years prior to being givewn this head grower position. I'm also designing automated drip irrigation for 6500 flowering plants.

As for your comments on NH4, I'm curious as to what your reasoning is for specifically adjusting NH4? I may have misunderstood your reasoning. NH4 is good at a 9:1 ratio with NO3 and is more easily (uses less energy) to be translocated into the plant.

That being said, why adjust it at all? Or do you not? I would think NH4 would participate negatively in stretch as excess NH4 in veg leads to weak "water sprouts" growing excessively. I would propose the idea, while others have stated they don't raise P until post stretch, and that NO3 remains high, to reduce stretch and internodal spacing, BECAUSE it requires so much energy to be used. (Meaning upward growth and increasing node spacing could be reduced as the plant would be using energy for uptake of NO3, instead of cell division upward as the light duration decreases to trigger a flowering response. Am I drunk, or am I understanding things acceptably?

Cheers! Gonna go hit that black tahoe from last round and take a break from thinking for a minute.

 

[MrBungle]

The reason I adjust the NH4.. is because it is what maintains a proper media pH.. while I have buffers in my soil to make sure my pH doesn't fall out... I use NH4 to keep the buffers in check... in my experiments I have found that veg plants like the soil/media to be slightly acidic... while flower plants like the pH just right....so by adjusting my NH4 my soil/media stays in my sweet spot....

I am also using very low levels of NH4.... my source is Ammonium Sulfate and my concentrate is .1 grams/gal.. it bumps my N from 134 to 143 or something like that.... and the NH4 % goes from 6-7% to 10-12 %... its been working well in my world so I thought I'd share... do what you wish with the info

 

[LivingCanvas]

The reason I adjust the NH4.. is because it is what maintains a proper media pH.. while I have buffers in my soil to make sure my pH doesn't fall out... I use NH4 to keep the buffers in check... in my experiments I have found that veg plants like the soil/media to be slightly acidic... while flower plants like the pH just right....so by adjusting my NH4 my soil/media stays in my sweet spot....

I am also using very low levels of NH4.... my source is Ammonium Sulfate and my concentrate is .1 grams/gal.. it bumps my N from 134 to 143 or something like that.... and the NH4 % goes from 6-7% to 10-12 %... its been working well in my world so I thought I'd share... do what you wish with the info

Ahh, beautiful explanation. I usually adjust my feed pH from ~5.7-5.8 in veg (Canna Coco/FFOF/Persolite mix) to 6.0-62 in flower with the idea of opening up phosphorous availability slightly.

I had thought about ammonium sulphate, as I'm going from using Jack's 5-12-26 as a "base" and supplementing with cano3/epsoms (3/2/1 recipe) to full on custom salts and I'm worried my Sulphur may be a bit low @ 118ppm.

 

[Mikell]

Spurr posts on Logical Gardener, not sure about the others.

 

[Avenger]

Hey all,

Wondering if mullray, analog, YS, (think Spurr is banned) fatman or any of those guys are still around to answer some questions, or anyone else knowledgeable in elemental PPM ratios.

I've been working on a general profile for full run start to finish:

PPMs are as follows-

NO3-137
NH4-10

N-147
P-45
K-260
Ca-164
Mg-80
S-118
Si-66
SiO2-140
(CL-66)

N:K=1.76
Ca:Mg=2.05
N:Ca=.91
K:Ca:Mg=3.17:2:1
P:S=2.62

Also considering using .1g STEM for micro nutrients/synthetic chelation
and Citric acid for pH down/organic chelation and maybe Sulphuric acid for pH down/+S

At some point I want to add
NAA/IBA in VEG
And TRIACONTANOL/6-Benzylaminopurine
for PGRs

Thoughts? Improvements?
Slight P raise post stretch through week 5?

Thanks all!

Thats a lot of silicon. Depending on the feeding frequency you can dial that back considerably.

 

[LivingCanvas]

Thats a lot of silicon. Depending on the feeding frequency you can dial that back considerably.

Yeah, I dropped it back to:

.5g/gal Agsil - = Si-36 SiO2-70 K-35

I have rearranged a number of things as I now know that
canna coco has 37ppm K 4ppm Ca 1ppm P and 3ppm S

I dropped back my K mainly, and gave my P a bump to 51ppm
and wont shift it really whole run.

 

[Kygiacomo!!!]

Already posted much earlier in this thread, but I figured I would throw in an update.

Been doing VERy well with these ratios. Granted, some of it depends on the medium you are growing in. Some tend to sequester P so it might have to be elevated slightly in that circumstance, but fo rthe most part, these ratios have upped our game BIG time.

Here's a little tid-bit that might help a few here. I have found that dosing my veg plants with a 0-10-0 shot about a week before going into bloom has REALLY boosted my initial flower onset. We get that "yellow disk" that some people think is actually a male flower, before it unfurls into a TON of pistils. Within a week or 2 into flowering we get a HUGE flower onset, thanks to that built-up P in the plants' nute reserves. ... After initial onset, we then go back to the ratios discussed herein, and the flowering progresses unimpeded.

I suggest trying it out. Give the veg plants a high P dose about a week before flip to give them that P reserve, and watch what happens

(We use Humboldt Nutrients 0-10-0 which also has about 10% Ca IIRc)

i watched this clip on youtube and this guy seems to know what hes talking about. scroll to 13min and listen to him talk about how plants need more P at the start of flower just like u said. and at the end they need more K.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BleWpBYweHE

 

[epicseeds]

I really like that formula analog. The K:N ratio of 2:1 and K:Ca:Mg of 4:2:1 or a hair less Mg definitely seems to be where I am being led by my playing around.

If someone ask me to suggest a formula I would point them to your formula. Perhaps you would be so kind as to post it.

However, I ran a pretty similar formula myself and I still see room for improvement...or more accurately, think I do. So, when you boil it down, I am looking at raising N or Ca a bit on the next run. Maybe a third option would be to just run your formula...observe and go from there...that wouldn't be no bad way to go. I just kinda like feeding a little Albion Metalosate K...that amino jacks up the bacterial life in my coco.

Are you going to run the Steiner soln on your tomatos this year?

Nutrient Solutions for Hydroponic Systems - ResearchGate

https://www.researchgate.net/file.P...57b&assetKey=AS:273798912249883@1442290155958

 

[OMalley]

Hi,

When theres is chain of values like 136-60-285-121-50-113 and a profile like 3-1-4-2-1.

Questions
- what scale is used for this numbers because my EC pen can't read ppm only ec and i have to convert so i need to know the scale
- I know the first numbers are the ppm values for N-P-K-Ca-Mag-S but what about the second chain 3-1-4-2-1 ?
Does it stand for the ratio 3times more N than P and 4 times more more K than P ? If so when I use this calculator
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

I enter this values for 17ml/gallon I get 135-20-149-45-90 so nowhere near the ppms.....what exactly am I doing wrong?

- Last question are these values applicable for biobizz nutes for example BB grow is 3-1-4 pretty low on P and good N:K ration. If I find a way to add some Ca:Mag can I use only grow for the full cycle?

 

[OMalley]

Sorry cant edit my previous post. I made some calculation and would like to know if everything is correct.

I made some calculation
Canna 1000ml/1009kg
Canna Vega2.6-1-3.1-0-1(3-1-4 rounded up) @5ml/L 35-6-34-0-13
Canna Flores 2.1-1.6-3.7-0-0.8(2-2-4) @15ml/L 84-28-123-0-32

119-34-157-0-45

my tap water: 77mg/l Ca= 77ppm & 7mg/l Mag = 7ppm
Canna + Tap = 119-34-157-77-52

thanks!

 

[MJPassion]

You need to know what the conversion rate is for your pen.
If you ask the manufacturer, they can tell you what the conversion is.

 

[OMalley]

You need to know what the conversion rate is for your pen.
If you ask the manufacturer, they can tell you what the conversion is.

I will thanks but what rate is used for all the ratios here ? 500?

and if you change 15/l to 15/gal I cant edit my post is everything else from the calculation correct ?

 

[BongFu]

Hi,

When theres is chain of values like 136-60-285-121-50-113 and a profile like 3-1-4-2-1.

Questions
- what scale is used for this numbers because my EC pen can't read ppm only ec and i have to convert so i need to know the scale
- I know the first numbers are the ppm values for N-P-K-Ca-Mag-S but what about the second chain 3-1-4-2-1 ?
Does it stand for the ratio 3times more N than P and 4 times more more K than P ? If so when I use this calculator
https://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

I enter this values for 17ml/gallon I get 135-20-149-45-90 so nowhere near the ppms.....what exactly am I doing wrong?

- Last question are these values applicable for biobizz nutes for example BB grow is 3-1-4 pretty low on P and good N:K ration. If I find a way to add some Ca:Mag can I use only grow for the full cycle?

These values relate to actual mg/L and not what a ppm meter presents so toss out the ppm meter and calculate in mg/L which is also expressed as ppm. All a ppm meter does is convert from an EC reading to ppm where there are different conversion standards. Ions in solution have positive and negative electrical charges which is what an EC (electrical current) meter reads. Actual mg/L and ppm readings from a meter are vastly different so you need to mathematically calculate the ppm in solution with pen and paper or software that can do this for you. If you don't understand what I have said here you are well out of your league and should not be formulating nutrients - go off and do some reading at academic sites or go study some basic chemistry somewhere else.

 

[BongFu]

Sorry cant edit my previous post. I made some calculation and would like to know if everything is correct.

I made some calculation
Canna 1000ml/1009kg
Canna Vega2.6-1-3.1-0-1(3-1-4 rounded up) @5ml/L 35-6-34-0-13
Canna Flores 2.1-1.6-3.7-0-0.8(2-2-4) @15ml/L 84-28-123-0-32

119-34-157-0-45

my tap water: 77mg/l Ca= 77ppm & 7mg/l Mag = 7ppm
Canna + Tap = 119-34-157-77-52

thanks!

You can't use labels for accurate listings - they are guaranteed minimums so if I made a nutrient to sell and it had 4% N I would list it as 3.5% or lower N to ensure it always meets guaranteed minimum. But you seem to have a bit of an understanding of calculating ppm so you are at least on the right track. If you want to know what is actually in a nutrient (real %w/w or w/v) you need to lab analyse it.

 

[BongFu]

These values relate to actual mg/L and not what a ppm meter presents so toss out the ppm meter and calculate in mg/L which is also expressed as ppm. All a ppm meter does is convert from an EC reading to ppm where there are different conversion standards. Ions in solution have positive and negative electrical charges which is what an EC (electrical current) meter reads. Actual mg/L and ppm readings from a meter are vastly different so you need to mathematically calculate the ppm in solution with pen and paper or software that can do this for you. If you don't understand what I have said here you are well out of your league and should not be formulating nutrients - go off and do some reading at academic sites or go study some basic chemistry somewhere else.

Typo and can't edit (presumably because I'm a newbie on the site).... EC = electric conductivity. Basically refers to what happens when negative and positive charges in solution bounce back and forth

 

[OMalley]

You can't use labels for accurate listings - they are guaranteed minimums so if I made a nutrient to sell and it had 4% N I would list it as 3.5% or lower N to ensure it always meets guaranteed minimum. But you seem to have a bit of an understanding of calculating ppm so you are at least on the right track. If you want to know what is actually in a nutrient (real %w/w or w/v) you need to lab analyse it.

Do you think fatman, Lucas, Mel Frank etc. used some lab to make their formulas ? They checked the labels made some calculation, tried and error and the formula was done which seems to be working great since so many people use and used it. Sorry what you saying is no help at all.

 

[OMalley]

I don’t even think that companies are trying to deceive you and write some exaggerated number on the bottle. I think sometimes it is rounded up like the canna terra Vega. It says 3-1-4 but on the back it is listed as actually 2.6-1-3.1 or something like that I’m not sure but it is rounded up...