The myth, of the high P myth?

[Dave Coulier]

What EC are you running and what is your full nutrient profile? I find high K is the bomb at the right points in time. These came off a approx 4 foot light dep plant I grew in a greenhouse. Own strain - high CBD to THC ratio.

EC at full strength is 1.1 mS.

Total N: 160
NN: 112
AN: 48 <--I run a 3:1 ratio of NN/AN to help stabilize media pH, but even with this ratio Im seeing pH drift up. Its not suprising since alot of the AN will be convertred into NN before uptake by the roots. Im gonna change the ratio around in the near future I think and see how that goes.
P: 40 <--Ill up to 60ppm after the stretch phase is over.
K: 130 <---Increases to around 150 when P is upped.
Ca: 100
Mg: 21 <--It was 50ppm, but precipitates were forming when using Calcium Nitrate and Epsom Salts together , so Ive cut the ES out of my formula for now. Hence the low Mg, but no symptoms of Mg def atm.
S: 10 <--Rather low after dropping Epsom, but no issues. I am using Sulfuric Acid to provide 40ppm total S now and to help reduce media pH.
Si: 61 <--Im considering upping this to close to 100ppm Si later during heavy resin production, it'd also provide extra 25ppm K.

When do you find is the best time for a K increase? Im all for trying out new things if someone has sound advise.

 

[paperchaser825]

I find it truly fucking weird that my Ionic nutes claim to have micros, yet don't list them. I cannot find a full profile for Ionic Bloom anywhere online.

 

[glow]

Holy shit. What a long read. Finally got through most of the meat I think. Props to sam for keeping shit pertinent. I think my ionic bloom is certainly too high in K for veg now. Still think the K is high for flowering too, but we'll see.

K is definitely too high for veg paperchaser. You need a veg nutrient. K for flower is no probs - keep in mind that from a plant physiology and nutrition perspective there is a degree of latitude where nutrients are concerned. As a PhD biochemist pal of mine put it.

Plants grown by hydroponics experts have very high quality and very high yields - near to their genetic potential, and tend to have mineral nutrient levels about 20 - 30% higher than "Ideal" levels published in various guides for the elements potassium, calcium and phosphorus. All the other elements tend to be at, or perhaps no more than 10% higher that the "ideal" levels.

These "ideal" levels do not vary much between all monocots (grasses) between all dicots (tomatoes etc) and between all gymnosperms (pines), but are different between the groups. Give any plant excess above what it needs, and it will not get any bigger or better. Give it high excess above its needs and you will subject it to osmotic stress. As a result, growth rates will be affected and yields will be reduced. (Dr Peter Keating, PhD biochemistry/plant physiology)

I'll throw you up a graph that demonstrates the K requirements of tomato - you'll find the optimums for tomato are extremely close to that of cannabis (albeit a few minor differences but they make a good staring point).

 

[glow]

BTW - that is 47.31% K+ ion to 29% N or 1.6:1 K to N ratio.

 

[glow]

EC at full strength is 1.1 mS.

Total N: 160
NN: 112
AN: 48 <--I run a 3:1 ratio of NN/AN to help stabilize media pH, but even with this ratio Im seeing pH drift up. Its not suprising since alot of the AN will be convertred into NN before uptake by the roots. Im gonna change the ratio around in the near future I think and see how that goes.
P: 40 <--Ill up to 60ppm after the stretch phase is over.
K: 130 <---Increases to around 150 when P is upped.
Ca: 100
Mg: 21 <--It was 50ppm, but precipitates were forming when using Calcium Nitrate and Epsom Salts together , so Ive cut the ES out of my formula for now. Hence the low Mg, but no symptoms of Mg def atm.
S: 10 <--Rather low after dropping Epsom, but no issues. I am using Sulfuric Acid to provide 40ppm total S now and to help reduce media pH.
Si: 61 <--Im considering upping this to close to 100ppm Si later during heavy resin production, it'd also provide extra 25ppm K.

When do you find is the best time for a K increase? Im all for trying out new things if someone has sound advise.

Are you growing in soil? If not that is a low EC for full strength bloom.

K needs to be increased slowly from week 3 onwards although I tend to run about 5 different profiles during the crop cycle and begin increasing K at week 2 of bloom.

 

[paperchaser825]

I am seeing deep green leaves on my veg plants while using Ionic Bloom at very low levels (approximately .5 ec). Is this potassium toxicity?

 

[paperchaser825]

Can't find a single case of potassium toxicity so I am guessing no. lol

 

[Dave Coulier]

Are you growing in soil? If not that is a low EC for full strength bloom.

K needs to be increased slowly from week 3 onwards although I tend to run about 5 different profiles during the crop cycle and begin increasing K at week 2 of bloom.

I use a soil-less mix thats amended with Osmocote as well, so I dont need to feed too strongly.

Whats your starting ppm of K, and ending?

 

[TanzanianMagic]

I am seeing deep green leaves on my veg plants while using Ionic Bloom at very low levels (approximately .5 ec). Is this potassium toxicity?

Probably magnesium deficiency.

 

[DrFever]

I am curious Here even thou this thread is informative there are many other things to consider for instance room conditions humidity root temps c02 / air exchange room temps and most importantly PAR to say the least So If your growing in a high humid room then plant will not use as much if temps are not in check plants will actually stop all Nutrient up take to cold of a room same thing so for instance a average grower will have prob 35 - 50 watts per SQ foot imprint is the plants engines running at 100 percent probably not so less of all nutrients will probably be needed
On second note other growers running there watts at 80 - 130 watts per Sq foot will see a huge difference in nutrient up take as well as literally double the growth and yield
My goal this fall in 5 x5 x 3 canopy area will run 1150 watt Gavita x 3 300 watt LEP plasma x 3 and two 400 watt MH x 6 for a total of 2250 watts per 5x5 area 90 watts per Sq foot imprint my goal is 4 pound plants 100 - 200 gallon tubs with 10 week veg
6750 total wattage 75 Sq feet my guess is plants will eat 2- 3 times more

 

[glow]

I am curious Here even thou this thread is informative there are many other things to consider for instance room conditions humidity root temps c02 / air exchange room temps and most importantly PAR to say the least So If your growing in a high humid room then plant will not use as much if temps are not in check plants will actually stop all Nutrient up take to cold of a room same thing so for instance a average grower will have prob 35 - 50 watts per SQ foot imprint is the plants engines running at 100 percent probably not so less of all nutrients will probably be needed
On second note other growers running there watts at 80 - 130 watts per Sq foot will see a huge difference in nutrient up take as well as literally double the growth and yield
My goal this fall in 5 x5 x 3 canopy area will run 1150 watt Gavita x 3 300 watt LEP plasma x 3 and two 400 watt MH x 6 for a total of 2250 watts per 5x5 area 90 watts per Sq foot imprint my goal is 4 pound plants 100 - 200 gallon tubs with 10 week veg
6750 total wattage 75 Sq feet my guess is plants will eat 2- 3 times more

Important points DrFever - environment is king. You can be running the best nutrient regime in the world but if you're environment is out there is no point. And yes light, heat and humidity all affect optimal nutritional requirements along with genetic factors also.

 

[glow]

Can't find a single case of potassium toxicity so I am guessing no. lol

Prob is that plant nutrition is holistic so too much of any one element will effect other elements (ions) in solution. So for instance, while potassium isn't toxic to plants it does antagonize calcium and magnesium which then results in deficiencies. My advice is go to your hydro store and buy a grow formula. Why would you grow with a nutrient that is formulated for aggressive bloom in grow? I'd also advise you to do some reading on academic sites about plant nutrient interactions. Check out Mulders chart for one.

 

[trichrider]

... As for phosphorus, humates bond ions of Ca, Mg, and Al first, which prevents the formation of insoluble phosphates. That is why the increase of humate content leads to an increase of the plant’s phosphorus consumption. (Lee & Bartlett, 1973.)

http://www.teravita.com/Humates/Chapter7.htm

 

[Top.Shelf]

BUMP!!!

Half strength Canna coco nutes (Euro version 4-4-2) at a dose of 2ml/L, give me these results using the cannastats calculator. I used the default 'net weight in grams' and 'liquid vol in ml' as I'm not sure what those are - Canna doesn't list them.

N101-
P38.5-
K49.5-
Ca119
Mg39.5

I have some calmag and silicone from 'shogun' brand nutes.
Guaranteed analysis on the shogun products say:

Calmag - N2.6-Ca3.2-Mg1.2-Fe0.1 %w/v
Silicone - P(K20)4.6 -Si1.4 %w/v

again I used the default settings to calculate their ppms on cannastats.

If I add 1ml/L Calmag (shogun brand) and 4ml Silicone (shogun brand) I get:

127-
39-
202-
152-
52-
56Si

N:K is just shy of the ratio I see many like of 1:2
K:Ca:Mg is close to glow and yosemite's formulas. They both grow also on coco . Si is a lot lower than there's which is 100ppm IIRC, but when I've gone through this silicone I found another brand that is far cheaper much stronger and has less K, I will boost K with water soluble sulfate of potash if this mix shows promise.

I'm going to try this on one plant today because although I get the silicone ppm's are lower than what yosemite and glow ran/run it feels strange exceeding the rec dose of silicone on the bottle by 4x to get the extra K and high Si levels people have had success with. If it looks cool in a couple days time, I will run it from week 5 - 8.5 on the rest of them (10 week strain). I'm currently at half way through week 4 bloom.

Any input would be cool guys

 

[TanzanianMagic]

BUMP!!!

Half strength Canna coco nutes (Euro version 4-4-2) at a dose of 2ml/L, give me these results using the cannastats calculator. I used the default 'net weight in grams' and 'liquid vol in ml' as I'm not sure what those are - Canna doesn't list them.

Any input would be cool guys

If you want to experiment with a clone or two, please try the following:

* Canna Coco A+B 0.4 EC
* Atami B'Cuzz Flower Hardener (NPK 0-20-30) 0.4 EC
* Filtered water (re-mineralized with a pinch of Maerl or magnesium lime and left overnight) 0.6 EC
Total EC: 1.4
* Plus: some micro solution (I used GH B'essentials)
* Early Flowering: raise the secondary nutrients: cal/mag/si/s
* PH: always to 6.0

(With filtered water, you need to use much less acid to bring the pH down and the pH doesn't nudge up because of the calcium in the water - also the nutrients bring the pH down too, so between waterings, the pH is pretty stable).

You can use this formula right from before you plant the seeds, it will not burn germinating seeds. (Beware of other high P/K products that may be loaded up with secondary nutrients - calcium, magnesium, silica, etc.)

You will love this formula, and never grow any other way, until you start growing organic using the same principles.

I grew Tanzanian Magic this way this year, and the taste is great. At the end of the exhale you can still taste that it wasn't completely organically grown, however if you'd only smoked store bought weed, wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And the higher sulfur in the nutrients during flower really brings out the taste.

 

[GreenDream]

Already posted much earlier in this thread, but I figured I would throw in an update.

Been doing VERy well with these ratios. Granted, some of it depends on the medium you are growing in. Some tend to sequester P so it might have to be elevated slightly in that circumstance, but fo rthe most part, these ratios have upped our game BIG time.

Here's a little tid-bit that might help a few here. I have found that dosing my veg plants with a 0-10-0 shot about a week before going into bloom has REALLY boosted my initial flower onset. We get that "yellow disk" that some people think is actually a male flower, before it unfurls into a TON of pistils. Within a week or 2 into flowering we get a HUGE flower onset, thanks to that built-up P in the plants' nute reserves. ... After initial onset, we then go back to the ratios discussed herein, and the flowering progresses unimpeded.

I suggest trying it out. Give the veg plants a high P dose about a week before flip to give them that P reserve, and watch what happens

(We use Humboldt Nutrients 0-10-0 which also has about 10% Ca IIRc)

 

[Sativan]

I have always thought the high P myth was brought up by A.N. to make the buyer replace all of the their bloom formulas/boosters. Plants will only take what they need so the excess is eventually flushed. There may be some anectodal evidence but I haven't seen the Dept. of Agriculture come out with such statements about high P formulas.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

I have always thought the high P myth was brought up by A.N. to make the buyer replace all of the their bloom formulas/boosters. Plants will only take what they need so the excess is eventually flushed. There may be some anectodal evidence but I haven't seen the Dept. of Agriculture come out with such statements about high P formulas.

You should try it yourself. The reason for the high P is that most of it goes to growing roots. And there won't be a hitch going from vegging to flowering because there won't be any P deficiency at the onset of flowering, when roots and flowers would otherwise compete for phosphorus. And there won't be any purpling of the stems during the seedling stage because of the high K. Which will also lead to much thicker stems and branches, which won't need support. (Which is another way you know you're doing something right.)

I'm smoking some Tanzanian Magic grown this way right now. Excellent taste - red grapefruit, divine head high.

 

[stoned-trout]

interesting to say the least....earth juice rules ...yeehaw

 

[LivingCanvas]

Hey all,

Wondering if mullray, analog, YS, (think Spurr is banned) fatman or any of those guys are still around to answer some questions, or anyone else knowledgeable in elemental PPM ratios.

I've been working on a general profile for full run start to finish:

PPMs are as follows-

NO3-137
NH4-10

N-147
P-45
K-260
Ca-164
Mg-80
S-118
Si-66
SiO2-140
(CL-66)

N:K=1.76
Ca:Mg=2.05
N:Ca=.91
K:Ca:Mg=3.17:2:1
P:S=2.62

Also considering using .1g STEM for micro nutrients/synthetic chelation
and Citric acid for pH down/organic chelation and maybe Sulphuric acid for pH down/+S

At some point I want to add
NAA/IBA in VEG
And TRIACONTANOL/6-Benzylaminopurine
for PGRs

Thoughts? Improvements?
Slight P raise post stretch through week 5?

Thanks all!