The myth, of the high P myth?

[jayjayfrank]

I'd like to offer some input:

...

These ions need to be in balance relative to another in order to be used EFFECTIVELY by the plant. This balance is called the "exchangeable ratio":

% Ratios:
Potassium (K) - 38%
Magnesium (Mg) - 9%
Calcium (Ca) - 45%
Sodium (Na) - <5%

I haven't tried Ericssons all in one reciepe but I've made an all in one reciepe with the exchangeable ratios in mind and it has worked like a charm for me so no need to fix what's not broken =)

N 138 (NO3 128 - NH4 10)
P 32
K 128 (38%)
Ca 152 (45%)
Mg 30 (9%)
S 59
+ micros

in what growing medium do you grow plants in

 

[julkop01]

in what growing medium do you grow plants in

Mostly coco. Been experimenting with other stuff in it also a lot but I'm about to move to fytocell and passive hydro methods with efficiency and ease in mind.

 

[julkop01]

I'm also experimenting with foliar feeding CaNO3 and leaving it out from nutrient solution but that grow is still in mid veg. They look good though atm but it's still too early to say.

I gave my PH and EC meters away last summer and haven't needed them since. I try to feed at approx 1.2 EC throughout the grows but since I only use a teaspoon to measure my mix to res and water level isn't spot on every time it translates pretty close to 1.2. Not under 1.0 or over 1.4 though.

 

[omera1]

These ions need to be in balance relative to another in order to be used EFFECTIVELY by the plant. This balance is called the "exchangeable ratio":

% Ratios:
Potassium (K) - 38%
Magnesium (Mg) - 9%
Calcium (Ca) - 45%
Sodium (Na) - <5%

I haven't tried Ericssons all in one reciepe but I've made an all in one reciepe with the exchangeable ratios in mind and it has worked like a charm for me so no need to fix what's not broken =)

N 138 (NO3 128 - NH4 10)
P 32
K 128 (38%)
Ca 152 (45%)
Mg 30 (9%)
S 59
+ micros

i am now in veg and coco and using a advanced lucas formlua:

N 118 (NO3 106 - NH4 12)
P 103
K 200
Ca 125
Mg 60
S 65

everything runs great, but i am wondering if using yours in veg and my lucas in bloom would be a better choice. less is more maybe.. i can make exactly your formulation, so what do you guys think?

 

[jayjayfrank]

drop the K to under 150 when in coco.

that has been my experience

also never really ran over 75 P, mostly stayed under 50

 

[GreenDream]

I just read this entire thread! What a wealth of information!!

I would like to add my own experiences..

My best yield came from using a nutrient with NPK of 7-7-11, 5%Ca, 3.5%Mg, and the addition of Big Bud Powder at half strength which adds 22ppm phos and 80ppm potassium. That makes the final numbers (in ppm): (Grown in ProMix with 5% EWC 0.8-0-0 added)
92n, 66p, 242k, 65Ca, 49Mg, ??S (Can't remember the sulfur percentage on the bottle.)


Anyway, recently I have been testing a new nutrient line with NPK values of 4-6-6, 5%Ca, 1.5%Mg, and 2.75%S. With the addition of Big Bud Powder again, I get final ppm values of:
63n, 69p, 155k, 78Ca, 23Mg, 43S

So the recent nutrient has significantly lower nitrogen, potassium, and magnesium, with equal phos. What I can say for sure is that the plants definitely showed that they wanted more N and Mg, especially after about wk5. The yield was significantly less than my best yield, and I think the reduced K might have been a major contributing factor, though it's honestly a little hard for me to quantify the amount of deficiency that can be attributed to each element.

On my next run I am still going to use the new nutrient (until it runs out) but I am going to increase the N back to 94 which will raise the Ca to about 118ppm. Hopefully that is not too high, as it is above the ratios listed in the beginning of the thread. I am also going to increase K and MG, though I am still trying to figure out what to add to get the K values where I want but not increase the Phos significantly. I am going to use Sweet to raise the Mg back to about 45ppm.


Finally, I hope we can get the original discussion started again about what the proper nutrient ppm levels are, but applied to Pro Mix as opposed to Hydro or Coco.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far! If anyone has any input as to my nutrient profiles, please let me know. I am all ears!

 

[GreenDream]

BTW, The test run is long since done and I currently have a new run underway, and I am trying out the recommended ratios of 2:1:4:2:1 N-P-K-Ca-Mg

My official ppm's are:
93.N (+ the N from added EWC in the media)
64.P (A little higher because I am using Pro Mix)
202.K
94.Ca
40.Mg
62.S

I am still using bottled nutes to come up with these ratios, so they're not perfect. I am basically working with what I've got until I use it up. The only hormones I am using are Triacontinal and some kelp products for Cytokynins and Auxins. So far things are looking great! I should have some new photo editing software soon and as soon as I do pics will follow.

 

[acridlab]

This is one of the best threads I've read in a long time,,

 

[justwatchin]

Wow this site pisses me off sometimes. I wrote longs ass page as far as nute ratio's PGR's n how they effect the high n the damn thing disappears in the internet cosmos. Wasted friggin 1.5 hrs of my life.

 

[epicseeds]

I'd like to offer some input:


"Tom Ericsson has analyzed plant tissues in a large number of plants, both annuals and perennials. Plants growing on poor soils, as well as plants growing on soils with both high and low pH values, have been used. Root, stem and leaf tissue was analyzed.
The analysis shows that nutrient contents vary greatly between different plants. However, the proportions remained remarkably similar.

The plants used were grown in greenhouses, provided with ample amounts of fertilizer. When such is the case, plants will absorb more than they need at the moment, building a small cache of nutrients. It was noted that when fertilizer applications were reduced, and plants were forced to absorb their actual requirement of each nutrient, the similarities became even more pronounced. As a result, it is now fairly well understood what plants need. Their uptake of nutrients is not haphazard. They are able to choose and absorb exactly what they need from soil moisture, regardless of the amounts of nutrients available.

All plant cells look the same in principle, says Tom Ericsson. They share the same basic physiological processes, such as photosynthesis and respiration. Plant nutrients are the building blocks in these systems, making the results of the analysis appear logical.
Plant tissue analysis:

Nitrogen, being the largest nutrient component, has been given the value of 100. Other nutrients are listed as a weight percentage of N.
N 100
P 13-19
K 45-80
S 6-9
Mg 5-15
Ca 5-15
Fe 0.7
Mn 0.4
B(oron) 0.2
Zn 0.06
Cu 0.03
Cl 0.03
M(olybden) 0.003

He also states:

"One objection can be made to the values in the table. Fruits, like tomatoes, contain more potassium in relation to nitrogen than what the table shows. Tom Ericsson is of the opinion that commercial growers of tomatoes, as well as other fruits and berries, may need to use extra potassium if they grow their crops in sand or other substrates that have no inherent nutrient properties. Adding potassium may increase crops. In good soil however, a fertilizer with the properties indicated in the table will be sufficient even for fruiting crops. This is especially true for hobby growers who do not need to press for maximum yields.

We need to find a fertilizer that contains all 13 nutrients, in the approximate proportions indicated in the table. This will allow for some luxury uptake by the plants.

According to Tom Ericsson plants need a fertilizer with the ratio 10:1.5:7. (NPK)

In order to compare proportional ratios of nutrients in different fertilizers, you can give nitrogen the value of 100, and then afford the ratio of the other nutrients a percentage of the nitrogen content (see chart above).

Tom Ericsson and his students have looked at the market of fertilizers offered to consumers. They have checked whether all 13 nutrients that plants need are included, and at what the ratio is. Some of the most extreme nutrient ratios were found in orchid fertilizers. Other specialty fertilizers lacked minor nutrients or did not contain any information about them. Some specialty fertilizers are formulated with ratios not suitable for any kind of plants.

After studying the findings of Tom Ericsson, one might ask what the producers of fertilizers are basing their products on. In many cases they do not reflect what we today know of plants needs. His students interviewed some of the major producers of fertilizers in Sweden, asking among other things about whether they conduct their own research on how to prepare an optimal fertilizer. They found that no such research is done and that producers "only make the products the market is asking for".


This proves that this is not rocket science but as a hobby scientist here's something that I've been playing with for a while now:

These ions need to be in balance relative to another in order to be used EFFECTIVELY by the plant. This balance is called the "exchangeable ratio":

% Ratios:
Potassium (K) - 38%
Magnesium (Mg) - 9%
Calcium (Ca) - 45%
Sodium (Na) - <5%

I haven't tried Ericssons all in one reciepe but I've made an all in one reciepe with the exchangeable ratios in mind and it has worked like a charm for me so no need to fix what's not broken =)

N 138 (NO3 128 - NH4 10)
P 32
K 128 (38%)
Ca 152 (45%)
Mg 30 (9%)
S 59
+ micros

Wow, OP here and have not visited the forums in a LONG time. Amazing how big this got. Anyone want to give a synopsis of what we have found? I am interested to here more from the above person and any one who has been taking this seriously with coco.

 

[justwatchin]

Hey there I know there are JACK's Hydro users here that get superb results with other mediums. I've recently made a purchase and have bags of the stuff +calcium Nitrate. I also have Loads upon loads of coco-coir. After using it for about two weeks I was getting superb smell and great growth with the stuff at a ratio of 2.88-1-4.13..... Then came some problems.. Thankfully after reading just a few lines from Yosimite I knew that the problem was pH drift upwards in the medium. I corrected this by feeding for about a week and a half at 5.0 pH with half/half PBP grow and PBP bloom. Worked beautifully. So having so much of the stuff and REALLY loving the initial results as far as smell and growth I tried to think of a solution to make it work with coco-coir. I decided on forking out $10 for the acid special 17-6-6 Acid special

Total Nitrogen (N) 17%
10.58% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
6.42% Urea Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5) 6%
Soluble Potash (K2O) 6%
Total Sulphur (N) 14%
14.0% Combined Sulphur (S)
Boron (B) 0.02%
Copper (Cu) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Copper (Cu)
Iron (Fe) 0.30%
0.30% Chelated Iron (Fe)
Manganese (Mn) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Manganese (Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0009%
Zinc (Zn) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Zinc (Zn)


Which according to my calculations 0.42g/gal should give me N-19ppm P-2.9ppm and K-5.56ppm added to the N-126, P-39, k-161.25, Ca-87, Mg-47.25 and give me higher sulfur, iron, zinc, and boron levels which I actually prefer for flowering.

This gives me a ratio of 3-0.87-3.47. and a Nitrogen/Ca ratio of 1/.6 instead of the preferred 1/.8 but I also think this is acceptable bc its drain to waist not recirculating and its coco-coir it'll build up a cation bank of Ca and K in the medium. I am also fine with the added potassium levels, instead of the 3-1-2 because I like my rooms a bit warm 86-90F as I like dealing with sativas and leaners and they just seem to produce a much better high from my standpoint at those temperatures. P levels are still low enough for micro-life to thrive in the medium also giving you much better resi production and yield.

I am leaping in here because I don't see anyone else doing this, but my Questions for the more experienced are

1. Is the amount of ammonium nitrate and Urea with this blend enough to correct medium pH shift?

2. Does the addition of these particular forms of nitrogen impede flowering or impact it in a negative way seeing as how they work so much faster on the plant? I know in some species it impedes flowering but I'm at 66W/sqft on a light mover high air flow

3. Can ammonium and Urea nitrate be used till before dial down and stop feed with-out negatively effecting smoke quality?

4. Would it be too much added nitrogen levels at 145ppm for flowering, Maybe better for Veg? Kinda doubt because all the light but its a possibility.

I really don't wanna put all this stuff on my stuff that I don't use shelf as I have so much of it and really enjoyed the initial effects on growth.

 

[glow]

Thanks to Yosemite Sam

Thanks to Yosemite Sam

Guys great research - I used Yosemite Sam's numbers as baselines and ran some comprehensive trials to conclude (BTW I am not stating these as absolutes due to several factors re e.g. total exchangeable P and K in the coir substrate and how this breaks down into immediately plant available P and K etc) - my conclusion being that I found the EC of these formulas somewhat lower than what I would consider optimum and therefore as a result of several trials (including side-by-side trials where I experimented with different ratios and ECs/ppm maintained the ratios but increased the ppm somewhat of all the nutrients at equal proportions (%) to the original formula besides P and silica (Si) which I maintained at Yosemite Sam's ppms. Additionally, in one experiment I increased the K to N ratio from 1.6:1 to 1.9:1 at week 4 of flower (maintaining this ratio thereafter) and reduced magnesium somewhat and found that this yielded somewhat (approx 4%) more against control. Conclusion for now:

132ppm Total N – 60ppm P – 250ppm K - 192ppm Ca – 55ppm Mg – 120ppm S – 70 ppm Chloride (Cl)

EC mS/cm at 500ppm per 1EC = 1.75

K to N Ratio = 1.89:1
Ca to Mg ratio = 3.4:1
K to Ca ratio = 1.3:1


Reps Yosemite Sam - you were so on the money. Brilliant work!

 

[glow]

PS technically 550 ppm is 1 EC but lets not confuse things - 1EC = 500ppm by U.S. standards

 

[glow]

Hey there I know there are JACK's Hydro users here that get superb results with other mediums. I've recently made a purchase and have bags of the stuff +calcium Nitrate. I also have Loads upon loads of coco-coir. After using it for about two weeks I was getting superb smell and great growth with the stuff at a ratio of 2.88-1-4.13..... Then came some problems.. Thankfully after reading just a few lines from Yosimite I knew that the problem was pH drift upwards in the medium. I corrected this by feeding for about a week and a half at 5.0 pH with half/half PBP grow and PBP bloom. Worked beautifully. So having so much of the stuff and REALLY loving the initial results as far as smell and growth I tried to think of a solution to make it work with coco-coir. I decided on forking out $10 for the acid special 17-6-6 Acid special

Total Nitrogen (N) 17%
10.58% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
6.42% Urea Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5) 6%
Soluble Potash (K2O) 6%
Total Sulphur (N) 14%
14.0% Combined Sulphur (S)
Boron (B) 0.02%
Copper (Cu) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Copper (Cu)
Iron (Fe) 0.30%
0.30% Chelated Iron (Fe)
Manganese (Mn) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Manganese (Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0009%
Zinc (Zn) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Zinc (Zn)


Which according to my calculations 0.42g/gal should give me N-19ppm P-2.9ppm and K-5.56ppm added to the N-126, P-39, k-161.25, Ca-87, Mg-47.25 and give me higher sulfur, iron, zinc, and boron levels which I actually prefer for flowering.

This gives me a ratio of 3-0.87-3.47. and a Nitrogen/Ca ratio of 1/.6 instead of the preferred 1/.8 but I also think this is acceptable bc its drain to waist not recirculating and its coco-coir it'll build up a cation bank of Ca and K in the medium. I am also fine with the added potassium levels, instead of the 3-1-2 because I like my rooms a bit warm 86-90F as I like dealing with sativas and leaners and they just seem to produce a much better high from my standpoint at those temperatures. P levels are still low enough for micro-life to thrive in the medium also giving you much better resi production and yield.

I am leaping in here because I don't see anyone else doing this, but my Questions for the more experienced are

1. Is the amount of ammonium nitrate and Urea with this blend enough to correct medium pH shift?

2. Does the addition of these particular forms of nitrogen impede flowering or impact it in a negative way seeing as how they work so much faster on the plant? I know in some species it impedes flowering but I'm at 66W/sqft on a light mover high air flow

3. Can ammonium and Urea nitrate be used till before dial down and stop feed with-out negatively effecting smoke quality?

4. Would it be too much added nitrogen levels at 145ppm for flowering, Maybe better for Veg? Kinda doubt because all the light but its a possibility.

I really don't wanna put all this stuff on my stuff that I don't use shelf as I have so much of it and really enjoyed the initial effects on growth.

I'd pass on the urea full stop (most hydro - 99.9% of - nutrients don't incorporate urea) but besides P and K, NH4 (ammonium N) is shown to be in demand during flower along with additional S.

 

[Storm Shadow]

Spurr mix still winning

 

[Caravaggio]

This might be the reason that Foliage Pro works so well in Coco at 9-3-6?

 

[paperchaser825]

Spurr mix still winning

You're using the General Hydroponics 3-part recipe? The 5/5/7/5/.5 ?

 

[Storm Shadow]

You're using the General Hydroponics 3-part recipe? The 5/5/7/5/.5 ?

Yes sirrrr

 

[paperchaser825]

Yes sirrrr

I too have had remarkable results with this formula. I just wish someone would 1-part it so my dumbass could easily dose it. It took strains that were having all kinds of problems and just made them happy.

 

[br26]

Hey there I know there are JACK's Hydro users here that get superb results with other mediums. I've recently made a purchase and have bags of the stuff +calcium Nitrate. I also have Loads upon loads of coco-coir. After using it for about two weeks I was getting superb smell and great growth with the stuff at a ratio of 2.88-1-4.13..... Then came some problems.. Thankfully after reading just a few lines from Yosimite I knew that the problem was pH drift upwards in the medium. I corrected this by feeding for about a week and a half at 5.0 pH with half/half PBP grow and PBP bloom. Worked beautifully. So having so much of the stuff and REALLY loving the initial results as far as smell and growth I tried to think of a solution to make it work with coco-coir. I decided on forking out $10 for the acid special 17-6-6 Acid special

Total Nitrogen (N) 17%
10.58% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
6.42% Urea Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5) 6%
Soluble Potash (K2O) 6%
Total Sulphur (N) 14%
14.0% Combined Sulphur (S)
Boron (B) 0.02%
Copper (Cu) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Copper (Cu)
Iron (Fe) 0.30%
0.30% Chelated Iron (Fe)
Manganese (Mn) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Manganese (Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0009%
Zinc (Zn) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Zinc (Zn)


Which according to my calculations 0.42g/gal should give me N-19ppm P-2.9ppm and K-5.56ppm added to the N-126, P-39, k-161.25, Ca-87, Mg-47.25 and give me higher sulfur, iron, zinc, and boron levels which I actually prefer for flowering.

This gives me a ratio of 3-0.87-3.47. and a Nitrogen/Ca ratio of 1/.6 instead of the preferred 1/.8 but I also think this is acceptable bc its drain to waist not recirculating and its coco-coir it'll build up a cation bank of Ca and K in the medium. I am also fine with the added potassium levels, instead of the 3-1-2 because I like my rooms a bit warm 86-90F as I like dealing with sativas and leaners and they just seem to produce a much better high from my standpoint at those temperatures. P levels are still low enough for micro-life to thrive in the medium also giving you much better resi production and yield.

I am leaping in here because I don't see anyone else doing this, but my Questions for the more experienced are

1. Is the amount of ammonium nitrate and Urea with this blend enough to correct medium pH shift?

2. Does the addition of these particular forms of nitrogen impede flowering or impact it in a negative way seeing as how they work so much faster on the plant? I know in some species it impedes flowering but I'm at 66W/sqft on a light mover high air flow

3. Can ammonium and Urea nitrate be used till before dial down and stop feed with-out negatively effecting smoke quality?

4. Would it be too much added nitrogen levels at 145ppm for flowering, Maybe better for Veg? Kinda doubt because all the light but its a possibility.

I really don't wanna put all this stuff on my stuff that I don't use shelf as I have so much of it and really enjoyed the initial effects on growth.

The urea form of nitrogen breaks is broken down with the enzyme urease to form an ammonical nitrogen cation (NH4+) . The rest of the N in the mix is also the NH4+. Yes some of NH4 is ok, but the predominant variety of Nitrogen for plants is a 4:1 ratio of NO3- : NH4+. The sulfur is fairly high as well. Hopefully the person that created this formula was fired.