The myth, of the high P myth?

[Thomkal Vwalaa]

This thread has shined some light on why this plant food buddy has (Natures Nectar) gives same mixing direction for veg or flower which struck me as odd for a formula that came in 3 separate bottles for N P and K - why bother. I think it may have been dis-continued so apparently it didn't do to well but seems a good opportunity for an experiment.

I wasn't too impressed with the flowers on a small crop with this formula so...I figure a side by side test is in order for the next batch of ladies...

but what to test...I imagine 3 groups ... a control of sorts to eat the same food year round and then maybe a 2nd with extra P in flower and a 3rd with extra K instead..?..

or maybe just keep it simple with two groups - one without no food change and one with the typical raised P and lowered N

natures nectar were not discontinued. the factory was raided as a supposed drug lab. nature's nectar was bought by organa and continue to be made. but yeah, i always thought having npk separate was interesting.

 

[Bhodi_22]

good to know

good to know

natures nectar were not discontinued. the factory was raided as a supposed drug lab. nature's nectar was bought by organa and continue to be made. but yeah, i always thought having npk separate was interesting.

good to know thanks, I'm still a little baffled at their recepie but it seems a pretty solid product.

 

[Azeotrope]

I remember getting my ass beat on here for suggesting that the ratio should be more 1:2 P:K. It was in another thread and probably due to the way I approached it. However the whole high P thing is a joke! Call the folks @ DynaGrow. They even admit that it is uneducated consumers and larger manufacturers that do little research. They just love to rake in the cash selling "bloom boosters". Suckered me for a year or two (many years ago) until I figured it out.

 

[tester]

From http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=5889

Some of you may recall that I have long maintained that high phosphorus(P) fertilizers are pointless.
I also am a fan of Dyna-Gro fertilizers for container usage.
I was asked recently 'If high P fertilizers are so useless then why does Dyna-Gro make and market them?'
My answer was simply to have a product that people wanted, but that was just my opinion. I decided to ask the company (Dyna-Gro) about this. At first I got a very brief response from a representative that wasn't at all satisfying so I asked that rep to forward my question to someone responsible for deciding what their formulations would be. I ended up getting a response from the CEO. Here it is, I think you will find it interesting.
*******************

You are correct. We market a high P (Liquid Bloom) "believe" they need this. As you have noted, our Foliage-Pro does a great job start to finish. However, it is simpler to give the market what they think they need than to try to reeducate it. There is some evidence to believe that low N helps to convince a plant to stop its vegetative growth and move into its reproductive phase (flowering), but environmental factors are probably more important. P is typically 5th or 6th in order of importance of the six macronutrients. There is little scientific justification for higher P formulas, but marketing does come into play for the vast majority of users who lack any real understanding of plant nutritional requirements. Therefore, the market is flooded with a plethora of snake oil products that provide little benefit and can actually do harm. For example, one exhibitor at a hydroponic trade show had a calcium supplement with 2% calcium derived from calcium chloride. Can you guess what continued application of 2% chloride would do to plants?'\
I hope this answers your question and am sorry for Zina's inaccurate response.
Cordially,
Dave Neal, CEO
Dyna-Gro Nutrition Solutions
2775 Giant Rd.
Richmond, CA 94806
800-Dyna-Gro, Fax: 510-233-0198
[email protected]
www.dyna-gro.com

"Let him who wishes to be deceived, be deceived" - Maxim of Law

 

[SexInTheCity]

This thread is craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy, good...

 

[YosemiteSam]

I posted this in another thread but this is an Arcata cut Trainwreck 1.5 weeks into flower. It has never been fed over 40 ppm P. Stretch is very well controlled considering the cut. Once stretch is over it will get 50 ppm but never more than that...I am guessing the buds will be just fine.

 

[TrueGangsta148]

if advanced nutrients is putting out these studies and talking about "the myth" of high P, why is the old overdrive formula ( a bottle i have from about 3-5 years ago) 1-3-4 and the new stuff is 1-5-4?? all the derived from ingredients are the same salts in the same order on the bottle, except the old bottle also says humic acids and another acid i cant remember right now either folic, fulvic, or ascorbic. anyways, i'm not sure if the new stuff works as well as the old stuff or why they would change it.

 

[Duk~O~Deth]

I always thought this was a good read


Nutrient Ratios for Modern Crops
by Erik Biksa

http://www.maximumyield.com/article...&yearVar=2009&issueVar=August&featureVar=true

 

[de145]

ive posted this elsewhere, but it certainly belongs here.

AN commissioned a study, its 15-20 pages long, here's a link, and images of the first 4 pages.

That graph indicates more nutes found in flowering. What does that tell us though?

Does it mean the plant is *consuming* more nutes or simply that it's *accumulated* more nutes as it's had more time to grow?

And why does every pre-mix plant food made for flowering plants of every kind stress the P so much?

Is it because the plant needs it to grow lots of big blooms, or is it to force the plant into creating more blooms that it wouldn't normally?

 

[Azeotrope]

Because microbes in the soil consume some and more can be washed out. I am using a "liquid bonemeal" very lightly to maitain moderate levels of P in my organic set-up. I figure there is lots in the mix and they just don't need that much. I use a 0-0-10 that is mostly kelp and sulfate of potash and a 4-3-3 that is fish emulsion, blood meal, kelp and some other stuff.. I worry more about N-K-S-Iron-Cal-Mg and never run low on P. I have used Dutch Masters Potash+ at 0.7-4-11 and that is a great chem flower booster. Funny how they have had that as their flowering booster for a long time??????

 

[spurr]

@ all,

Their is indeed a myth about cannabis needing copious amounts of P, perpetrated by so-called gurus the likes of Mel Frank, Ed Rosenthall, and other authors, as well as companies who want to separate you from your money.

The reason very high P is provided to plants growing in soil oudoors is the high degree of soluble P made insoluble by Fe, Al (and some other metals), high pH (e.g., > ~7 which negativity effects solubility of P, the higher it goes the worse it is), soil temp (cooler soils negativity effects solubility of P); as well as lack of AEC in many soils (which leads to high leaching rates of P). Not only that, but even if P (i.e. phosphates) are soluble, they have very low "soil water" mobility (e.g., horizontally).

None of those factors are a concern with how most indoor growers grow cannabis, and in fact, most outdoor growers also have little concern due to chelation of metals (if using conventional ferts) and pH adjustment of soil/soilless media. Thus, the idea that cannabis grown properly, needs copious amounts of P (i.e., > 60-70 ppm), is flatly false.

FWIW, I for use citric acid to keep P (phosphates; Pi) soluble, as much as possible. I use citric acid in organic and conventional horticulture, which also lowers pH a bit. Citric acid will break the bond of Al-Pi, Ca-Pi, Fe-Pi, etc., making insoluble Pi soluble.

Anyone interested in the topic of P should read the following thread, if you have not done so already. In that thread are many studies and good articles on the topic of P usage, as well as the same articles that were posted in this thread.

"Hemp (Cannabis sativa L) tissue nutrient analysis data"
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181405​

P.S. Using excess P during pre-flowering is about the worst time to use excess P (ex. with a bloom booster), if you want plants with tighter internodal spacing and plants that stretch as little as possible. By "excess" I mean > ~60-80 ppm...this is about "root:shoot" ratio.

 

[YosemiteSam]

ding, ding, ding...winner, winner, chicken dinner. nicely said spurrr.

 

[Azeotrope]

Excellent. Thanks for the reminder on the citric acid in organics. I find that a REAL apple cider vinegar or even balsalmic vinegar can serve a similar purupose.

spurr - I have been going higher in K and even N in early flower with success for years. Thoughts? Lots of blue light as well.....

 

[spurr]

Excellent. Thanks for the reminder on the citric acid in organics. I find that a REAL apple cider vinegar or even balsalmic vinegar can serve a similar purupose.

spurr - I have been going higher in K and even N in early flower with success for years. Thoughts? Lots of blue light as well.....

I too have used higher N and K during early flowering for years, that is how the Lucas formula is supposed to be used too (i.e., the same 0-8-16) from veg to harvest. The myth that we should reduce N pre-flowering and flowering is just that, a myth.

Plants self-regulate their intake of elements (i.e., they reduce uptake of ions) such as nitrate (but not ammoniacal N; e.g., ammonium), P, Ca and K too IIRC, etc. I wrote a thread in this sub-forum on that topic. Plants do this by levels of certain amino acids in the phleom. For example, here are amino acids, once at a certain concentrations in the phloem, that 'signals' the plant to reduce uptake of nitrate:

can strongly inhibit nitrate uptake:

• Arg
• Ala
• Asn
• Gln

can weakly inhibit nitrate uptake:

• Gui
• Met
• Asp

What that means is the plant controls what it 'takes up' to some degree, thus we should strive to provide sufficient amounts of elements and let the plant do the rest. The whole idea about trying to give XYZ ppm of elements for veg, then different XYZ for pre-flowering and yet different XYZ for flowering and even still, different XYZ for later flowering is flawed logic, IMO anyway.

I give the plant sufficient levels of N, P, K, Ca, Mg, et al., and let the plant take what it will. I use the same mix for veg, pre-flowering and flowering.

Also, the usage of amino acid supplements (e.g., "Dissolved Organic Nitrogen"; e.g., reduced forms of N) is not wise IMO, when combined with conventional horticultural practices (i.e., chem ferts). The reason is, many types of amino acids affect plant uptake of ions, as I showed above. We want the plant to be in control, not us, IMO anyway. That said, exogenous application of some amino acids can be helpful, but I found no reason to use them, not only becuase they can hinder uptake of ions, but because the plant makes it's own amino acids, thus has little need for exogenous application of amino acids.

As a side note: plants grown in conventional systems (i.e., non-organic) can live and grow well given only dissolved organic nitrogen (DON) and dissolved organic phosphorous (DOP), in place of ionic forms of N and P.

 

[YosemiteSam]

It is my understanding (based on work by organic ag advisors) that excess nitrate (as in overfeeding N) will lead to the plant producing excess aminos as opposed to complete proteins. And sap sucking insects feed on free aminos...in other words too much N without properly proportioned other elements is going to make your plants a target for mites.

Personally I like to be fairly close to just what a plant needs in N and P and then a little more of everything else. Just throwing too much of everything at a plant (and I know that isn't how you meant it) will lead to some problems if the balance is not correct.

I also agree on not throwing aminos into the res. The only reason to use aminos is to chelate metals...and that reaction does not happen in your res anyways, it has to be in a very controlled environment and produces things you do not want that then have to be removed before you use your chelated metal ion.

 

[Carboy]

What that means is the plant controls what it 'takes up' to some degree, thus we should strive to provide sufficient amounts of elements and let the plant do the rest.

I give the plant sufficient levels of N, P, K, Ca, Mg, et al., and let the plant take what it will. I use the same mix for veg, pre-flowering and flowering.

That's pretty much my theory in a nutshell. The key being RATIO and I don't think there is a magic one of those.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Here is the same plant at 3 weeks into flower. It looks like it has a chance to grow some colas this time. Still not fed over 40 ppm P.




I am seriously considering feeding this the following until flush:

N...119
P...39
K...199
Ca..100
Mg..40
S...73

Very close to 3-1-5 (elemental, not P2O5 and K2O). I am curious to see what the extra (for me) K will do

 

[whodair]

no added nutes

no added nutes

stuck a shovel in the dirt and planted some in an old grape vineyard...they got rain thats it...

 

[spurr]

Here is the same plant at 3 weeks into flower. It looks like it has a chance to grow some colas this time. Still not fed over 40 ppm P.

I am seriously considering feeding this the following until flush:

N...119
P...39
K...199
Ca..100
Mg..40
S...73

Very close to 3-1-5 (elemental, not P2O5 and K2O). I am curious to see what the extra (for me) K will do

What nutrient/s do you use?

 

[YosemiteSam]

the 3-1-4 (elemental) i have been using is Scott's Hydro Special 5-12-26 and CaNO3. the 3-1-5 will be from some individual salts plus a complete micro package.

it will be per gallon

2 grams CaNO3
1 gram KNO3
.66 grams MPK
1.6 grams MgSO4
.45 grams K2SO4
.1 grams micro package

the plants are kinda on the too green side if anything although there is no indication of overfeeding.

i kinda want to find the upper limit for K given my particular grow cause every single time i have upped it my results have improved. i also tend to do a few foliar sprays along the way (but done now that buds are setting)...i use a product called Calcium 25 about once a month and a very high K product called Brix Mix from Peaceful Valley Farms (thank you Tom Hill) a little more often than that.

i am looking at a true amino chelated K product to replace the Brix Mix but have not actually tried it yet.

i need very little pH down but use citric acid when i do.

i believe that covers everything i use.