The myth, of the high P myth?

[*mistress*]

phosphorus is an anion, it held almost exclusively in the nutrient solution, whereas cations, like potassium, is capable of being held on the collidial surfaces of the media... this is why anions (phosphates, nitrates, sulfates) are easily leached away... the rate of leaching is dependent on the media used, the volume of the container, and the amount of nutrient solution applied...

most plants use highest amounts of phosphorus to

a) establish roots,

b) elongation during 1st 2 wks of flower

c)fruit set, or last 2 wks of flower...

but, maybe just 50-100ppms, max.....

potassium can go up to 500ppm, or more, & not be toxic to plants, though it may cause antagonisms w/ other cations if too much applied (cal & mag)...

why are they mixed together? because they are electrically charged opposites. phosphates shouldnt be mixed w/ calcium, as precipitates may form. this is opposite of dissolving. the combination may form calcium phosphate, or gypsum, insoluble matter to plants' roots... if use maxi series, maybe mix very well & let dissolve for 30min-1hr, before feed... if possible, feed cal-mag-type fert separate than phosphates... shake gh fnb bottle "vigorusly", as the calcium is held @ bottom of bottle. that is how cal can be mixed w/ "p" in fnb...maybe...

phosphorus maybe used in "p/k" type mainly to "stress" a plant into producing more nodes, or flowers. not because plant needs more phosphrus. just needs constant supply @ certain moments during fruit set & development...p is not able to bond to mostly postively charged particles in media, so "leaches" away... due to repelling electrical charges...

the p% on bottles is only ~43% of the actual phosphrus that plants get, after dissociation in nutrient solution.... potassium label is only 83% of available k+, but since potassium can bond to collidial particles (found in media such as coco, perlite, soil, rocks, etc), it can be far more avialable to roots than p...

example:

gh flora nova bloom. npk on label is 4 - 8 - 7.

actual #'s:

4 - 3.5 - 6.6

or, approximately a 1:1:1:1:.5 formula...n:k:ca:mg...

this may be helpful:

calculating npk/nutrient profile

 

[GRINKEEEPER]

I was once a A.N. field tester.. I had 5 cases of advanced nutrients, the full line... and followed the nutrients calc to a tee , along with my meters.. I also called the help desk each week to talk about the changes... was also collecting leaf samples each week and freezing them to later send in... Let me tell you that adding the full line up to a set up that was already pulling 1.4 per 1k , made a increase of only 1.6 per 1k light... was there more resin, yes, bigger buds yes, taste was not noticably improved but good.. my final results were positive but NEVER would I do all the work that I did for such a small increase... its great products but please dont believe every add you read... there not a charity

 

[supermanlives]

great read. i like extra k myself. earth juice meta k made a big diff for me

 

[Thundurkel]

Looks like H&G got it right then because Aqua Flakes A&B at 8ml per gal comes out to
N 97
P 31
K 174
Mg 17

They say you want the P low and the N high and the K double as the high as the N right?

 

[mdk ktm]

very interesting.... So the 3ml/g of liquid kool bloom i just added is useless? I am running floranova bloom as a base at 8ml/g with great success. It keeps the ph pegged at 5.9, no ph up or down. Set it and forget it really. And just added my first shot of kb once bud sites appeared..... It always seems like it gives them a nice boost, but maybe it really doesn't?

 

[couchlockd]

i read about the p thing in a ed rosenthal book, it was mentioned that the high P in flowering ferts is needed because of the low N, and some thing or another is being stabilized or the P is helping keep something in solution by balancing something.

obviously i cant recall much about it but i do recall that it had something to do with the high P myth thing, it was the marijuana growers handbook by ed rosenthal

 

[epicseeds]

almost all the additives that the "industry" has produced are exactly that. just a bunch of worthless garbage that you dont need or could have by mixing up a few simple things yourself. AN produces nutes that work but they have specifically seperated things or left them deficient so you have to buy their supps. that goes for most manufacturers but if you look at AN they are the worst.

the lucas formula proves this imvho

the lucas formula does not go by the no high P philosophy. in fact it is the exact opposite. the lucas formula is a very inneficient formula. it WORKS, but there are way better nutrient programs.

 

[couchlockd]

well i dunno if the lucas is inefficient, but i do agree, there are "better" nute programs out there. like stuff with more exotically sourced raw materials, and exotic plant esters, and franctionated extracts. shit veganic growing is a damn fine way to go. been running all my mothers on straight up technaflora magical @ 2.5 ml per gallon, and 8ml of PURE VIDA GRO, with some enzyme. and its been 2 years and i feed every 2 weeks, and no stress to me, no stress to them, and no defficiancy problems at all. the new general organics line is "veganic" but very light.

next run i am compeltely done with AN and everything else i done in the past, not that i havent had bomb ass buds from the lucas formula, PBP, AN, and the whole popular sythetic/hybrid programs, but he results are the same or even better most of the time better, but sometimes just as good, but never not as good, Ya Dig? and veganics does not seem to build up in the medium at all either, as its been bout nine months since i ran any "flush" to them, i used some clearex back in march/may of 2010 and before that i ran nutes for a year.

i really suggest to those who havent tried it, to try it, Pure Vida Bloom & Pure vida Grow, use one for each stage. by Technzflora (dont believe the bottle and mix equal parts of each the grow and bloom for "agressive growth" you dont need it) or the General organics line Bio Thrive Grow, and bio bud bloom.

i just started messing with the new general organics line, but so far im liking the Pure Vida One part sytle better, more potent i think.

 

[Guywithoutajeep]

I like this thread. I do a 0-10-10 booster from week 2 to the end and its making some picture perfect buds. One of my favorite growers once told me that he always does a high K kick at the end. His flowers were so amazing too. I dont know guys...its been going around for years that high P will make your buds more dense and to some extent, hardened.

Of course it varies from strain to strain, but you have to ask yourself "what do I like in a finished product?" I'm not ready to start experimenting in that manner, but I would love to see side by sides.

How about the actual smoke? Could it effect how harsh the bud is, how potent, or how racy or laid back the buzz is?

 

[TanzanianMagic]

I always thought it was odd that Bio Canna Flores had a high K but a moderate P. NPK is 2.5-2.0-5.0.

I wouldn't know, I have been using high PK bloom formulas for flowering, which gives very nice buds. So I don't know if it is the high P or high K. I'm using high PK bloom formula for rooting too (with rhizotonic), with great results.

 

[habeeb]

^ thing I don't like much about biocanna is the P comes from rock phosphate

 

[danks]

1-1-1 gmb is 7-5-10 and shows the high p is not necesary. i believe that cal mag boost is more usefull in the first 2 weeks and last 2 weeks then any pk boosters. but ive seen nice results from supernatural boost 0-50-40 in preflower and ripening probably cause it cause shitloads of cal mag and b1 when used witht he 1-1-1. just drop the micro in week 6 but boost cal mag and ur npk will be 2-5-10 for a nice finish with low nitrogen for those limy green dank buds.

 

[Lazyman]

The reason some fertilizers come with high P amounts is because when growing outdoors in soil the P is less available and has a tendency to wash out of the soil.

Yep, THIS. Indoors it's not as big a problem, and in recirc systems not a problem whatsoever.

 

[Thundurkel]

Yep, THIS. Indoors it's not as big a problem, and in recirc systems not a problem whatsoever.

Probably why my Aqua Flakes A&B come out to a NPK of 4.6-3.4-9.9 and folks are getting big gorgeous plants with 5-7oz in 2gal pots. Not using anymore than 9ml of base and give the PK boost with Top Booster in week 5 and that's it unless going longer than 8weeks then use Shooting Powder in week 6 and 7 and it's 0-9-20 and lots of people swear by it.... I know I've gotten my best plants from this line

 

[Dawn Patrol]

Back in the day,before all these choices, we used a brand called Dr. Chataliers

Ha, I remember that shit! When I was a teen, my Mom bought it to fertilize all our plantings in the yard and I ended up using it on my very first crop in the late '70's.

Thanks for the trip in the way back machine!

 

[Madrus Rose]

Probably why my Aqua Flakes A&B come out to a NPK of 4.6-3.4-9.9 and folks are getting big gorgeous plants with 5-7oz in 2gal pots. Not using anymore than 9ml of base and give the PK boost with Top Booster in week 5 and that's it unless going longer than 8weeks then use Shooting Powder in week 6 and 7 and it's 0-9-20 and lots of people swear by it.... I know I've gotten my best plants from this line

Have had a similar positive experience with 1 run of H&G though plants were a little too green @ the finish & flushing earlier definitely needed . Forgot which one i was using , believe it was Aqua flakes in a soiless SunshineMix #4 medium. Heard good things about roots Excel, Drip Clean & the Shooting Powder ... think will maybe give the latter a try this round & do a run with the Base nutes too sometime soon.

 

[Thundurkel]

To get the fade you are looking for you want to lower your ppms in the last week before the flush... Also dropping the base to 5-7ml when you add Shooting Powder gives you a ratio with the N much lower than the P and K...

 

[TanzanianMagic]

I like this thread. I do a 0-10-10 booster from week 2 to the end and its making some picture perfect buds. One of my favorite growers once told me that he always does a high K kick at the end. His flowers were so amazing too. I dont know guys...its been going around for years that high P will make your buds more dense and to some extent, hardened.

Of course it varies from strain to strain, but you have to ask yourself "what do I like in a finished product?" I'm not ready to start experimenting in that manner, but I would love to see side by sides.

How about the actual smoke? Could it effect how harsh the bud is, how potent, or how racy or laid back the buzz is?

I watched a video on Youtube from KOG, who grows weed outdoors in Australia. He uses ashes as a late flowering booster. However, ashes are most K and alkaline - no extra P. So mayb there is some truth that K is more important than P? Like I said I wouldn't know from experience, because so far I'm finishing off with a 0-9-10 bloom food.

Check out this video from KOG on Youtube:
3 Grower's Lot (skip to 8:42)

 

[Thomkal Vwalaa]

^ thing I don't like much about biocanna is the P comes from rock phosphate

Why's that? Because srp is slow release?

 

[Bhodi_22]

experiment action ?

experiment action ?

This thread has shined some light on why this plant food buddy has (Natures Nectar) gives same mixing direction for veg or flower which struck me as odd for a formula that came in 3 separate bottles for N P and K - why bother. I think it may have been dis-continued so apparently it didn't do to well but seems a good opportunity for an experiment.

I wasn't too impressed with the flowers on a small crop with this formula so...I figure a side by side test is in order for the next batch of ladies...

but what to test...I imagine 3 groups ... a control of sorts to eat the same food year round and then maybe a 2nd with extra P in flower and a 3rd with extra K instead..?..

or maybe just keep it simple with two groups - one without no food change and one with the typical raised P and lowered N