The Myth of Objective Reality

[southflorida]

I chose to add this post from this thread into the original post. It describes what I'm trying to explain, simpler and shorter.

The easiest way to grasp what I am trying to explain is to understand that our perceptions are in-direct.

We don't directly perceive anything that we see, hear, smell, taste, feel, think, etc.

For those folks that doubt: This has been a scientific fact for a while now.

This is where the confusion for human beings occurs. The majority of people believe and assume that they directly perceive what is there. So when they see a tree, they believe and assume they are seeing a tree DIRECTLY.

But, this is NOT SO.

In the first post in this thread I wrote how our sense organs work, but if we boil it all down, what actually happens is inside our self-mind we are provided with images, sounds, tastes, feelings, tastes, etc.

So, in our in-direct perceptions there are both objective things (objects) like water, rocks, etc, and there are also subjective things (concepts, like beliefs, assumptions, convictions, ideas, etc).

But, it is important to understand that we are NOT directly perceiving reality, and have no way to experience reality through our senses.

We can only do that DIRECTLY, and this direct experience would be outside of our perceptions, or to be more correct the direct experience is what is always there, it is what is PRIMARY, ORIGINAL, AUTHENTIC.

It is what IS now.

What we perceive is what IS-NOT, what is SECONDARY, an illusion.

This is the ORIGINAL FIRST POST:

Intellectually I have understood for a while that our perceptions are indirect. But, recently I grasped this distinction on an experiential level.

What I'm trying to point at, is that everything that you are currently perceiving (seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking, etc) is 100% subjective.

It is occuring in your mind, in your imagination.

This is a hard thing for the self-mind to actually grasp because it tries with all its power to convince us that what it perceives is objectively real (water is wet, rocks are hard, if I jump from a building I will hit the ground, etc.)

These things might be this way, but NOT objectively, NOT the way we assume, and NOT the way we have been programmed to believe that they are.

All that we are perceiving on a moment to moment basis is occuring 100% inside our self-mind, inside of our imagination.

So, water might be wet, rocks might be hard, and if you jump from a building you might hit the ground, BUT, and this is a BIG but, it will all happen inside of your self-mind, inside your thinking, inside your imagination, as a conceptual occurence.

Below I'm going to try to explain why this is so.

Some may grasp this, but most will not. If you grasp this experientially you will feel it in your consciousness, in your awareness, if you don't, it will simply seem like an intellectual thing, something to continue to ignore while you continue to believe and assume that there is an objective reality.

ANYWAY, here goes:

It is ONLY because our perceptions are so familiar, and the only one's we've got, that they seem to "be" reality for us.

The eyeball doesn't actually see the object it perceives. Since the eye functions by picking up light patterns, what they eye sees is ONLY the light that bounces off the object that it perceives. So, we're not seeing the object but the light.

But, to be more correct, we are not even seeing the light that is accepted by the object but ONLY the light that the object repels.

Since the light hits the eyeball and stimulates nerves that we receive as a pattern that we interpret, we aren't ACTUALLY seeing the light either.

What we are actually seeing is the image that our self-mind provides us with.

This means that what we are perceiving ONLY exists in our mind.

Furthermore, we can only pick up the data that our INDIRECT perceptive process can provide us with.

This means we don't hear the object, we can't feel weight or texture or temperature, or view inside the object, and so on.

Try to get that right now as you read this on your screen.

We are NEVER aware of any aspect of anything that can't be represented through our senses. Any aspect of the object that can't be carried through some perception cannot be known via perception.

What's most significant is this: No matter what can or can't be carried through some perception, we are NEVER directly perceiving or experiencing anything.

We are simply interpreting the perception of STIMULATED NERVE PATTERNS.

This activity is NOT the object or anything else we perceive.

We have no direct perception of or contact with the object itself.

This is true for each and every one of our perceptive senses.

So we are NEVER perceiving the thing itself.

We never grasp the the real nature of any object or anything we perceive for that matter.

This is true for hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, even thinking.

Perhaps we grasp that our perception of the outside world are indirect, but still take for granted that our thinking and emoting are direct since they are within us.

What we perceive within our own minds and bodies isn't anymore of a direct connection to the true nature of reality than is our perception of an object outside our bodies.

The content of our imagination and memory has been formed through the "re-creation" of sensory perceptions. Internal dialogue is a conceptual mimic of the sound of our voice. Our thought patterns and distinctions are based on our particular language and our relationship to a perceived reality.

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So, what is ACTUALLY out there, the data that our mind is interpreting is NOT-KNOWN.

This means that the body-mind that you believe that you ARE is simply an illusion created in your imagination. The thoughts that you are thinking and emotions that you are feeling and all of your perceptions are occuring inside of your awareness, inside of your consciousness.

Interesting, isn't it?

 

[skullznroses]

Dude, you can say 50000 words if you want, but its a mans world. Period. If youre a chinese buddhist then great, just say so, but honestly this is textbook stuff. Either you have read lots of spiritual literature or absorbed it because you are smart, or else you are travelling down a long line of thoughts by chance that resemble buddhist philosophy with a slight American influence.

Either way dude, I wish you would use a little more from your own life. I find it so hard to have discussion like this at a say undergraduate level, when it could be applied to something.

My vote was objective. Are you kidding me, two different people do the same thing and have totally different personal experiences. Every snowflake is unique thats my thinking.

 

[southflorida]

Dude, you can say 50000 words if you want, but its a mans world. Period. If youre a chinese buddhist then great, just say so, but honestly this is textbook stuff. Either you have read lots of spiritual literature or absorbed it because you are smart, or else you are travelling down a long line of thoughts by chance that resemble buddhist philosophy with a slight American influence.

Either way dude, I wish you would use a little more from your own life. I find it so hard to have discussion like this at a say undergraduate level, when it could be applied to something.

My vote was objective. Are you kidding me, two different people do the same thing and have totally different personal experiences. Every snowflake is unique thats my thinking.

We are simply interpreting the perception of STIMULATED NERVE PATTERNS.

This is something that scietists have confirmed for a long time, for those folks that have a hard time with it.

Obviously the scientists have NOT pointed out what all this MEANS, because they know the majority of folks want to keep believing that what they are seeing what they are seeing is objective, that it is ACTUALLY there.

But, the fact is that it is NOT there objectively, it is inside one's mind, inside one's thinking, inside one's imagination.

So here's an example just for you:

What you are currently perceiving in this moment wherever you are IS NOT objective, it is an interpretation of the stimulated nerve patterns inside your mind. So, what you believe you are seeing, in reality you are IMAGINING inside your self-mind.

In other words: There is NO SPOON

 

[skullznroses]

you remind me of a friend who went nuts at an amazing school in the northeast studying buddhism and neuroscience at the same time.

dude, what do I give a crap about what you say about a spoon. You didn't use that spoon to spoon jello into russian hookers bathtub, so I say blahhh

are a a famous philosopher, if so just admit it, otherwise Im going to have to bow out bro. you talk about water and rocks and the 5 senses. so what dude. my fingers work good and I can see both sides of a sunny day. Have a good one bro

 

[JKD]

My understanding is that this is theoretical psychology rather than pure philosophy.

 

[hup234]

So if enough people say global warming long enough, people belive?

 

[skullznroses]

lol do your own research google is free

 

[BlueBlazer]

There is no reality.

There is only Zuul . . .

 

[southflorida]

We are creating distinctions inside of our consciousness and then all these distinctions are perceived as whatever we see, hear, feel, smell, taste, etc.

So, basically, we are creating our own reality, or illusion (depends on how you look at it)

The thing to grasp is that there is NO objective, physical world, as we believe and assume there is. What is actually there is not-known. Or to be even more precise: there is NOTHING there, but this is outside of belief and perception and has to be directly experienced. It cannot be believed, because in our perception it seems that there is "something" there.

It's as if our consciousness creates distinctions, and projects these distinctions onto an empty canvas, where our perception perceive this image or hears the sound, or tastes the pudding, etc.

To actually grasp this, one has to become aware that they don't know what anything IS.

For anything that exists, we only have a name (label) and what that thing can be used for. Besides this, we don't know what something is, and in fact, we have no way of knowing what something is fundamentally.

This is why most people have a difficulty with these viewpoints.

If you believe you KNOW something, and consider these things to be facts, you will resist these ideas.

 

[devilgoob]

Allusion: A passing or casual reference; an incidental mention of something, either directly or by implication
Illusion: distorted, malformed sense of things

I believe our senses are an allusion to reality, and those allusions are our reality.
They could also be only self-true and throughout the entire scope of reality an illusion, but the whole universe is the reality, not what one human mind thinks.

How are we speaking of realities that are not here, when infact we are mentioning them, and our imagination constructs them so it is reality.

Subjective and objective are not inherent opposites. I do perceive myself to be separate, yet I know that when I move my body, all objects are affected by my gravity. I also know we are connected and born from Earth - put us on another planet and we'd die.

When we were younger, perceiving oneself as a baby alone without knowing we are one with our nutritional source and protector, therefore we perceived them as us and us as them. As the physical connection breaks, the umbilical cord - you become wireless, apparently separated. But remember you eat food that roots in the ground, even fungus. Many animals react with instinct, as their environment controls them. We react with a personality, which is societies reaction to instinct. Here we see ourselves, we see our animal. Animals just do, react. We must choose which instincts we use.

We can see ourselves as a separate thinking entity, we control our instincts and environments. Animals cannot think or separate or see anything beyong what instinct tells them. Some people are like that also. So we see ourselves as a separate self from the environment, but an animals interact directly melding themselves with it and are not separate because the environment dicates its actions, while in humans the environment dictates what initial percepts are developed based on instinct, but humans get to make a choice separate of it.

 

[1TWISTEDTRUCKER]

All I Know is if you jump off a tall bldg.,your gonna be Jelly, and in Your subjective Mind,,, well it WILL be jelly to.
So subjective, or objective the conversations over at that point.
I think the Coroner will quit objectively say, this cat died from a fall off thatr tall bldg.

PEACE; 1TT

 

[Payaso]

Thanks SouthFlorida for posting something interesting for us to ponder... don't let the naysayers bother you. If they aren't interested in these thoughts then they should just turn the channel to something that interests them more...

That being said I am prone to thinking all is subjective to our own personal observations and feelings. I envision a future where folks live in virtual reality tanks floating in water with all their needs supplied by tubes, and the senses are 'wired' into the great collective consciousness that is the ultimate virtual reality.

But this has been described before by other more eloquent writers than I.

 

[1TWISTEDTRUCKER]

My perception IS My reality, Yours IS Your reality, but when 2 million people watch the Super Bowl and see same Game,
Final score,1st downs hits, and penalties.
Well the calls as to penalties are subjective,, until they go to the review booth, at which time the Replay official either confirms the call on the field or rejects the Reff on the fields subjective call.The decision becomes FACT.
Each person sitting in the stadium will also have their own subjective opinions as to the validity of the call.
These are usually based on objective bias's based on whos fan you are.
But the RECORD will have facts recorded into the history books, so Who's to say that the 2million people who seen the same game are wrong to all believe they seen the same thing?

I have Way to many REAL issues to spend a whole lot of time ponder Theoretical Pshyc. Issues. I am not here to stir any thing up, just to me life does not need to be complicated.
Just speak your Mind Honestly, and Respect the rights of others to do the same.

PEACE;1TT

 

[southflorida]

Thanks for the comments to everyone that posted.

I know this is an "almost impossible" topic to talk about, especially when in our shared world we can only speak in relative terms. Absolute reality can only be experienced directly, and it is impossible to transfer to language what that reality IS.

No matter what we will say, it will only refer to that reality conceptually, and that will not be what reality IS.

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Still, I am going to try to say it in a simpler way, that way maybe more folks will grasp what I'm pointing at. English is not my first language, but I know it quiet well since I lived in the USA for 13 years. Yes, I lived in SouthFlorida

...Dade and Broward and Palm Beach counties, to be more exact.

So please take into account that I'm translating thoughts from my language into English and posting them.

==================================================

Here goes

Our perceptions are indirect.

This means that we are NOT perceiving something that is objective, and then adding our subjective interpretation and meaning on top....instead...our self-mind is interpreting something unknown to us, and providing its own made-up interpretation, its own made-up image, sound, taste, whatever.

This process >>> perception, interpretation, and meaning >>> is NOT direct, it is NOT primary, instead it is indirect, it is secondary.

Direct perception of reality is impossible through our sense organs, because they work through the interpretation of nerve endings.

Our awareness does not find anything there, because direct experience is what it IS, it is NOT interpreting something and providing it with meaning (how our sense organs work) - instead it is experiencing reality directly as it IS.

We are experiencing that direct-reality right now, but our attention is focused on the interpretations and meanings that our self-mind is providing us with, and because of this we are hypnotized by this subjective virtual reality.

In simple words: whatever you are perceiving right now, that is NOT what is actually there AS-IS. What you are perceiving right now is what IS-NOT, what your self-mind is currently playing for you in the movie-theater inside your mind.

 

[trichrider]

then my feeling guilt over past occurences is wasted effort?

i can do anything i want and none of it is real?

too far out for this human. but i do agree with my reality being part of it all.

positive and negative is all there is.

 

[southflorida]

then my feeling guilt over past occurences is wasted effort?

no matter what...feeling guilt is wasted effort...the past is over, what is there to feel guilty about?

i can do anything i want and none of it is real?

yes...you can do what you can do...and yes, it is NOT real in the objective sense. It is subjective, and occuring inside of your self-mind. This is your mind's job, to interpret everything you perceive and provide you with an image, sound, etc...plus a meaning for all these perception, and as a bonus, you get an emotional charge (fear, anger, desire) so that you know what action to take in relation to what you perceive.

too far out for this human. but i do agree with my reality being part of it all.

it is far out...i agree

what do u mean by your reality being a part of it all?

if u mean that you are consiousness and being, as everything else IS, then yes, your reality is a part of IT ALL.

...I would even say your reality IS ALL, since consciousness is all there IS.

positive and negative is all there is.

what do u mean by this?

 

[DU420]

Oh no.... Skynet has become self aware and is posting on weed sites using the handle southflorida.

 

[DU420]

But seriously mate how can you rattle off this whole philosophical diatribe without even grasping the concept of positive and negative.... Yin and yang, right and wrong, sun and moon, up and down, even the ebb and flow of the tide...... That's about as subjective as it gets.

 

[bombadil.360]

any claims that state things like: "reality is subjective" are absolute claims, making subjectivity the objective reality.

thus, all is objective.

no matter what, if you have two apples and two pears, you'll have four fruits. whether apples taste like pears to someone and pears like apples to someone else is of little consequence.

 

[bentom187]

it's subjective.....

this is my understanding of IT/TRUTH.my own view is that it is a unbound condition of freedom that originates from the letting go of ones perceptions to view reality in a middle way wich is not the way of preconceived ,mechanical, habitual forms of thinking. there is a middle way ,when we use this middle way viewpoint we are making use of our knowledge in a unbiased fassion in this reality to be free from suffering in this life and others.of course every ones life is unique so they know how to do that best for themselves.


my view is not a nihilistic one, this is the polar opposite, this perception is viewing it as the greatest gift anyone could ask for a literal merricle that lasts a lifetime. you can over come the fear of life and death but everything must change, you might as well enjoy what you have.


most here know what my political views are as well, they might seem incompatible but they are not.
it is all voluntary and free from force fraud and coercion.


universal freedom would work out if it were not for those psycho central bankers , and their political and their religious puppets who we would otherwise all get along with , wanting to dominate the globe.

Shunryu Suzuki: God Giving
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