The most hated nute company is the only one producing decent smoke? Figures..

[led05]

What about pk for bloom? Do you use anything else?

the product I shared has more than enough for it all, and it makes itself available to your plant at it's leisure, not drowning it in synthetic minerals at ratios we could never fully understand, do the math on the % and potential of combinations of 16 minerals, it gets exponentially insane of course.....

so we give the plant minerals in forms it can pick at, when it chooses, and our soil is living facilitating this picking.... If you'd like check on some the pics I've shared of fruits and veggies, I pull more from tiny spaces than farmers using 2, 3, 4, 5x the land, like demolish their productions, it's scalable too, I just have no reason to scale...... far too much food as it is, gift hundreds of lbs every year...

Sun on my back; Dirt on my hands…

happy days man . keep up the good work

www.icmag.com

when you grow 30 species of plants or so on average, some truly finicky you learn how very easy cannabis is to grow, I'd say 98/100 times it's the grower chasing their own tail leading to their issues....

That processed down chicken poo, has very little smell, is so easily mobile in 50# sacks and has a ton more minerals than just listed on the labels I shared, of course, they only list a handful the essential minerals for plants.... But chicken poo, especially from a well run farm is the gold by which a farm functions, it closes the loop......

if I see P issues, I'd spray foliarly before hitting the soil and just watching it leach right out, K is in abundance here in huge amounts from hardwood leafs and just about everything else..... K is the enemy of Ca, cations fight one another, the key to growing great plants IMO, is the walking up and down of Ca & K, they are antagonists

 

[Hammerhead]

I'm, not a hydro grower.. I've been using V&B Dirty in flower for about 7 years now. Love the results.. I have no plans to change. Due to its cost, I don't use it in veg. I still use PBP grow in veg for over 10 years. Love the results it gives in veg. I do not use bloom boosters. I don't like what my flowers look like when used. I do use lots of microbes.

 

[goingrey]

Seriously. More people should read Uncle Ben's old "the never-ending abuse of Phosphorus" thread from like 15 years ago. He could have written it today and titled it "the never-ending abuse of Phosphorus and Potassium." We have multiple studies, cannabis specific studies, from the last few years that show a decline in yields once you go higher than 90 ppm P. The same study showed a mere 20% increase in yield going from 30 ppm P to 90 ppm P. Likewise, most people running high EC nutrients are also grossly overfeeding K. Because of the way that this information slowly filters through the community, it will take a LONG time for people to adjust their "more is better" philosophy. I've grown organic outdoors and with mineral salts indoors for years, and there is no way I'd say one turns out "better" than the other. Grossly overfed cannabis tastes terrible whether it's grown organic or with mineral salts. Advanced is just selling Haifa nutrients (which are good quality, fyi) with the world's most expensive water. Advanced fanbois should cut out the middle man and just buy bulk dry Haifa salts and mix it themselves. How you dry your bud has a bigger influence on final flavor and "quality" than whether it was grown with poop or mineral salts.

A 20% increase in is quite substantial in my opinion. Imagine growing 200g extra for every kilo.

I'm very interested in mixing my own fertilizers at some point but it's not for everyone. And AN ferts also have the pH buffer which makes them easier to use. I'm sure you can buy some pH buffer chemicals too separately. But come on, everyone doesn't want to go so deep into it. Especially a small time home grower who can save twenty bucks a year or whatever, if you aren't into it as a hobby the time used is quickly worth more to most.

Comparing soil and hydro in this context is silly anyway. Why is that even being discussed here. My GH veggies have got composted manure, composted veggies, bone meal, worm castings... nothing from a bottle. Ok maybe there was some left in the used coco. Sure they are doing fine but I want a different approach indoors.

And even the soil setup I'm going with is a totally frivolous hobby thing. The genuinely smart thing to do would be to compost your food waste and hell even use an outhouse and collect and use the nightsoil.

 

[GoatCheese]

Seriously. More people should read Uncle Ben's old "the never-ending abuse of Phosphorus" thread from like 15 years ago. He could have written it today and titled it "the never-ending abuse of Phosphorus and Potassium." We have multiple studies, cannabis specific studies, from the last few years that show a decline in yields once you go higher than 90 ppm P. The same study showed a mere 20% increase in yield going from 30 ppm P to 90 ppm P. Likewise, most people running high EC nutrients are also grossly overfeeding K. Because of the way that this information slowly filters through the community, it will take a LONG time for people to adjust their "more is better" philosophy. I've grown organic outdoors and with mineral salts indoors for years, and there is no way I'd say one turns out "better" than the other. Grossly overfed cannabis tastes terrible whether it's grown organic or with mineral salts. Advanced is just selling Haifa nutrients (which are good quality, fyi) with the world's most expensive water. Advanced fanbois should cut out the middle man and just buy bulk dry Haifa salts and mix it themselves. How you dry your bud has a bigger influence on final flavor and "quality" than whether it was grown with poop or mineral salts.

Do you remember the name of the study you’re talking about or do you have a link?

I quickly looked at some studies and the few i looked at are focused on flower mass production using very high Nitrogen levels. ...i wouldn’t smoke those plants. Hah-hah.



Here’s one study telling how the got better yield with 60mg/L of P compared to 120mg/L but then they also got more yield with 180mg/L compared to 120mg

..but when you look at the low-res photos of the plants they are showing, the 120mg plant is actually more yellow than the 60mg and 180mg plants, which could mean the 120mg one was more poorly grown - which may also explain some of the loss in yield. So at least this study isn’t so good, imo.

For some reason they also report different Magnesium levels for all of these plants. I wonder why is that.

The 60mg/L of P plant received 72 of Mag; 120 of P received 93.1 of Mag while the 180 of P plant got only 45 of Mag

https://ijiset.com/vol8/v8s2/IJISET_V8_I02_32.pdf


Here’s another P study showing some plants that seem to be poorly grown. Some plants show signs of leaf necrosis and the root systems don’t look too nice on some of them.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2021.657323/full

I didn’t even bother to read them fully after i saw pictures of the plants.

How valid are these studies?

There are studies and then there are studies. It’s not a good study if the plants weren’t grown equally well when we know stress can affect growth, yields and potency, aroma etc quite alot

:

:

I just read the Uncle Ben’s post..

He’s actually talking about NPK 1-5-1 and 1-6-1 nutrients from the start of bloom being bad, ferts that are low in N and K

..but still recommending ferts that has higher P ratio compared to N and K. NPK ratio of 1-3-2 after the stretch ends.

I doubt there are too many people on ICMag using NPK 1-5-1 ferts when they flip to 12/12. So is your ranting really on point here?

..now, the issue with high EC and pushing the plant to the max with ferts is a valid point, i agree. You won’t grow good smoking product this way. You may get more yields this way but it’s not good for nice smokes.



Here’s the post by Uncle Ben

The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering

A common mistake for growers when they reach the flowering stage is to start hitting the plants with a high P fert like a 10-50-10, continuing to use this blend exclusively, and when their plants start experiencing a deficit of N, Ca, Mg or micros as reflected by the dropping of lower leaves and chlorosis, they wonder why. Plants flower as a response to long nights, not because of fert blends high in P. A ratio of 10-60-10 is WAY too high in P. The plant will only take what it needs and compete for other elements that may be more important at the time.

You may have heard that too much N can inhibit flowering. No question about it, exclusive use of a plant food that is rich in N such as blood meal, a 5-1-1 blend, or ammonium nitrate/sulfate may inhibit flowering especially if the phosphorous level is low, but most balanced blends have sufficient amount of P to do the job. The question is - "how much P is enough to support a good flowering response and still retain my leaves?"

Manufacturers/horticulturists will give you element analysis and what effect the elements have on plant growth, but remember this does not necessarily mean you will get better yields. Using a high P fert exclusively during flowering can actually work against you due to impending leaf drop. It's an abundant amount of healthy leaves going into 12/12 and maintaining their health that produces a lot of bud, not high P ferts.

I rotate fert blends as the plant *requires* them, not because it is "the thing to do." For example, when your plants are going thru the stretch phase during early flowering, they may need more N, especially if you're getting some yellowing in the lower leaves. Give up the cannabis paradigms and give them what they need. Go back to mild high P fert when the stretch ends, maintaining the foliage in a healthy state of growth until harvest for maximum yields. A 1-3-2 blend such as Peter's Pro Blossom Booster, 10-30-20, is one of the best flowering blends on the market because of several factors - it is higher in nitrate N and Mg. It is sold under the Jack's Classic label. An added benefit of Peters blends is their use of high quality, very pure salts that will eliminate root burn if used judiciously.

Uncle Ben

 

[Cerathule]

Hahaha did this "consultant" really state only with AN fertilizer can one produce a good smoke?!?
And that, because they use more >N< in flower!?!

 

[Cerathule]

Imho, most nutrient companies i’ve seen - even the brand i’m using, BioBizz - use too much Nitrogen in their boom-cycle nutrients.

I replace part of BioBizz Grow-component with a PK13/14 during he last few weeks i give them nutrients to get lower levels on N in late bloom. I don’t actually follow BioBizz recommendations at all, which is 1:1 Grow + Bloom for the most part- i make my own nute blends with them.
..and before someone calls me a BioBizz fanboy, i use their nutes mainly cause they’re fairly cheap. I’m not claiming they’re better than something else

What kind of a BB scheme you got over there from them?
Usually they advise 1:3 Grow:Bloom. I've drawn an average last year from their 10 week plan and (ignoring veg) it turns out to be NPK 5-8-8 something.
But I'm not sure if their labels are actually correct....

 

[Cerathule]

if I see P issues, I'd spray foliarly before hitting the soil and just watching it leach right out, K is in abundance here in huge amounts from hardwood leafs and just about everything else..... K is the enemy of Ca, cations fight one another, the key to growing great plants IMO, is the walking up and down of Ca & K, they are antagonists

I wonder what you are using for a P-foliar complex? And your local soil won't bind phosphates? That is very unusual

 

[GoatCheese]

What kind of a BB scheme you got over there from them?
Usually they advise 1:3 Grow:Bloom. I've drawn an average last year from their 10 week plan and (ignoring veg) it turns out to be NPK 5-8-8 something.
But I'm not sure if their labels are actually correct....

They recommend different feeding for their All-Mix soil (slow release) and for regular potting soil (Light Mix) and coco.

For coco and regular potting soil in the end of bloom it’s 1:1 ratio of Grow and Bloom, which just isn’t good. Way too much N for cannabis smokes

https://www.biobizz.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Nutrient-Schedule-EN_2021-Microbes.pdf


BioBizz has changed the NPK profiles few times in recent years. My bottles are Grow 4-3-6 Bloom 2-7-4, yet they have kept their feed schedule unchanged. Go figure.

Personally, i’d like lower N during the last weeks that i use ferts than 5-8-8 , and i can’t get to what i’d like without replacing part of the Grow-component with a (Plagron) PK13/14

 

[GoatCheese]

Hahaha did this "consultant" really state only with AN fertilizer can one produce a good smoke?!?
And that, because they use more >N< in flower!?!

Hah- hah .."consultant" might be looking for new line of work if the word gets out! I sure wouldn't want to smoke that shit, nor sell it to my customers.

 

[led05]

I wonder what you are using for a P-foliar complex? And your local soil won't bind phosphates? That is very unusual

Good points - truth be told I don’t spray foliarly P, there’s plenty in my medium it was more a if thing, I’d lean towards foliar vs soil if focused on a single element, especially certain ones.

P often/can precipitates out with Ca and/or binds with certain micros so just watering in some P acid or something doesn’t work well in organics as it messes with balance, especially if you’re rich in limestone like most this region is…

The symphony processed chicken poo has plenty P for my needs additionally, this holds true for many species of plants, in fact all I grow here if I think about it…

Peace

 

[mack 10]

Whe A. N Came out,
They where one of very fee
Cannabis specific nutrients.
The a and b with a touch of big bud
Was all you needed.
Then they changed things up.
Went to 6,7,8 bottles of this an that.
Basically broke down the line into many parts.
Unfortunately this didn't work.
An AN went from most peoples go to,
To f that. £6/700 a run is not gonna cut it with most small growers.

They should re release their original
Sensi A an B.

 

[Cerathule]

"Hoagland solution
Hydroponic nutrient solution

The Hoagland solution is a hydroponic nutrient solution that was developed by Hoagland and Snyder in 1933, modified by Hoagland and Arnon in 1938, and revised by Arnon in 1950. It is one of the most popular artificial solution compositions for growing plants, in the scientific world at least, with more than 16,000 citations listed by Google Scholar. The Hoagland solution provides all essential elements for plant nutrition and is appropriate for supporting normal growth of a large variety of plant species.
The original solution described by Dennis Hoagland in 1933, known as Hoagland solution (0), has been modified several times, mainly to add ferric chelates to keep iron effectively in solution, and to optimize the composition and concentration of many other trace elements not generally credited with a function in plant nutrition. In Hoagland's nutrient recipe of 1938 the number of trace elements was subsequently reduced to the generally accepted essential elements (B, Mn, Zn, Cu, Mo, Fe, and Cl) and their concentrations were adjusted for optimal plant growth. In Arnon's revision of 1950, only one concentration (Mo 0.011 ppm) was changed compared to 1938 (Mo 0.048 ppm), while the concentration of macronutrients of the Hoagland solutions (0), (1), and (2) remained the same since 1933, with the exception of calcium (160 ppm) in solution (2). The main difference between solution (1) and solution (2) is the different use of nitrate-nitrogen and ammonium-nitrogen based stock solutions to prepare the respective Hoagland solution of interest. Accordingly, the original and the modified concentrations for each essential element and sodium are shown below, the calculation of the latter values being derived from Tables 1 and 2.

• N 210 ppm
• P 31 ppm
• S 64 ppm
• Cl 0.14 ppm / 0.65 ppm
• B 0.11 ppm / 0.5 ppm
• Na 0 ppm / 0.023 ppm / 1.2 ppm
• Mg 48.6 ppm
• K 235 ppm
• Ca 200 ppm / 160 ppm
• Mn 0.11 ppm / 0.5 ppm
• Zn 0.023 ppm / 0.05 ppm
• Cu 0.014 ppm / 0.02 ppm
• Mo 0.018 ppm / 0.048 ppm / 0.011 ppm
• Fe 1 ppm / 5 ppm / 2.9 ppm

Plant nutrients are usually absorbed from the soil solution. The Hoagland solution, which is intended to imitate a (nutrient-) rich soil solution, has high concentrations of N and K so it is very well suited for the development of large plants like tomato and bell pepper. For example, a half-strength macronutrient solution (1) of Hoagland can be combined with a full micronutrient solution of Long Ashton and a tenth-strength ferric EDTA solution to fertilize tomato seedlings. Due to relatively high concentrations in the aqueous stock solutions (cf. Tables 1 and 2) the solution is very good for the growth of plants with lower nutrient demands as well, such as lettuce and aquatic plants, with the further dilution of the preparation to 1⁄4 or 1⁄5 of the modified solution.
Salts, acids and complex ions to make up the Hoagland hydroponic or culture solution formulations (1) and (2) listed by Emanuel Epstein"

Hoagland solution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RobFromTX]

I’d never use AH or any other brand for marijuana growing with that kind of NPK profile.

It’s two different things to grow a cannabis plant in a way that you cater to it’s every need

..and to grow a Marijuana plant for smoking.


Cannabis for marijuana growing – to grow a smoking product, that is – needs more Nitrogen in the first half of bloom but not so much later.
...and if you’re gonna feed that much Nitrogen as you have on that AH chart during the whole bloom cycle, you’re not gonna get a good smoking product = the smoke will be harsher on the throat even if you’d starve the plant before harvest to get a proper yellowing going.

If you use too much Nitrogen during Marijuana-cannabis growing it won’t be as smooth smoke as it can be no matter how yellow it gets before you harvest it.


Imho, most nutrient companies i’ve seen - even the brand i’m using, BioBizz - use too much Nitrogen in their boom-cycle nutrients.

I replace part of BioBizz Grow-component with a PK13/14 during he last few weeks i give them nutrients to get lower levels on N in late bloom. I don’t actually follow BioBizz recommendations at all, which is 1:1 Grow + Bloom for the most part- i make my own nute blends with them.
..and before someone calls me a BioBizz fanboy, i use their nutes mainly cause they’re fairly cheap. I’m not claiming they’re better than something else.

I love the bio bizz bloom. Once you master the fact that you only need half the recommended dose then its a breeze to grow with. It seems more to me that they just dont need much help but I grow sativas and they came be some picky bastards

 

[GoatCheese]

I love the bio bizz bloom. Once you master the fact that you only need half the recommended dose then its a breeze to grow with. It seems more to me that they just dont need much help but I grow sativas and they came be some picky bastards

I don’t use even 50% of what BB recommends for their Grow and Bloom which is 4ml/L + 4ml/L in late bloom
For my CBD Critical Cure keeper (CBD version of Critical Kush)i give under 3,5ml/L of both Grow and Bloom combined. Landrace stuff and Sativa hybrids have gotten even less, but i haven’t grown heavy feeders in recent years.

The problem with using only BioBizz Bloom (NPK 2-7-4) is that you lose a lot of K cause it’s mostly in the Grow component, which also has alot of N in it. That’s why i replace part of the Grow in late bloom with the PK 13/14 to keep the K level up. ..but only for the last week and a half to 2 weeks of feeding.

In 1:1 ratio if someone is interested = 1ml of Plagron PK13/14 replaces 1ml of BioBizz Grow for me. For landrace stuff i may replace little of the Bloom also with the PK 13/14 to get the N even lower in late bloom.

Usually i have dropped the Grow component already to about 1 – 1,2 ml/L a week before and then replace half of it with the PK13/14. My smokes got smoother after i started doing this and dropping N levels, in general, in the second half of bloom cycle.

 

[RobFromTX]

I don’t use even 50% of what BB recommends for their Grow and Bloom which is 4ml/L + 4ml/L in late bloom
For my CBD Critical Cure keeper (CBD version of Critical Kush)i give under 3,5ml/L of both Grow and Bloom combined. Landrace stuff and Sativa hybrids have gotten even less, but i haven’t grown heavy feeders in recent years.

The problem with using only BioBizz Bloom (NPK 2-7-4) is that you lose a lot of K cause it’s mostly in the Grow component, which also has alot of N in it. That’s why i replace part of the Grow in late bloom with the PK 13/14 to keep the K level up. ..but only for the last week and a half to 2 weeks of feeding.

In 1:1 ratio if someone is interested = 1ml of Plagron PK13/14 replaces 1ml of BioBizz Grow for me. For landrace stuff i may replace little of the Bloom also with the PK 13/14 to get the N even lower in late bloom.

Usually i have dropped the Grow component already to about 1 – 1,2 ml/L a week before and then replace half of it with the PK13/14. My smokes got smoother after i started doing this and dropping N levels, in general, in the second half of bloom cycle.

If you dont mind me asking what kind of soil are you using? Ive been using ocean forest but im thinking of switching to happy frog. Less nitrogen

 

[xet]

I would love to. I don`t even know who he/she is. And to say that my statement is divorced from reality makes you a complete ignorant, you don`t have an argument at all. Have a good one, go read, study and then you can come back.

No, you have the garden education of someone like me when I was 16 years old and I have 20 years of reading beyond that.

Just another bro science guy going on the ignore.

 

[hambre]

No, you have the garden education of someone like me when I was 16 years old and I have 20 years of reading beyond that.

Just another bro science guy going on the ignore.

Who cares about your feelings? You don`t have one solid argument. Just throw shit and see if sticks, but it falls in your own head... Such an idiot.

 

[GoatCheese]

If you dont mind me asking what kind of soil are you using? Ive been using ocean forest but im thinking of switching to happy frog. Less nitrogen

I just use some basic super market potting soils we get here in N Europe, no brand in particular. Not the absolutely cheapest kinds but nothing really fancy either. I don’t use any slow release soils just the regular kind.

I grow in smaller containers cause my bloom tent is quite small, so the soil is usually quite drained out of NPK nutrients when my plants go into bloom. So the NPK food they get in bloom is mostly from the Bio Bizz ferts.

..i kind of like it like that any way so i have better control of what goes into the soil.



I’d say it’s better to have little less N in soil to begin with and then add more in as you go for better control of the N levels in the second half of bloom. Because plants don’t use nutrients so much any more during the last weeks before harvest and it’s a bitch if you have too much N in there at this point.

 

[RobFromTX]

I just use some basic super market potting soils we get here in N Europe, no brand in particular. Not the absolutely cheapest kinds but nothing really fancy either. I don’t use any slow release soils just the regular kind.

I grow in smaller containers cause my bloom tent is quite small, so the soil is usually quite drained out of NPK nutrients when my plants go into bloom. So the NPK food they get in bloom is mostly from the Bio Bizz ferts.

..i kind of like it like that any way so i have better control of what goes into the soil.



I’d say it’s better to have little less N in soil to begin with and then add more in as you go for better control of the N levels in the second half of bloom. Because plants don’t use nutrients so much any more during the last weeks before harvest and it’s a bitch if you have too much N in there at this point.

Yeah, sativas hate nitrogen. Even if they get too much at the beginning of flower it can effect the final product. Less is more for sure

 

[goingrey]

Yeah, sativas hate nitrogen. Even if they get too much at the beginning of flower it can effect the final product. Less is more for sure

Too much is too much but IME many sativas really want some in early flower because of the stretch. Then after that's over it's better to cut down on it.