the Hand Watering coco thread

[bonecarver_OG]

sometimes i make funny misstakes.

i was cutting holes in 130 small plastic cups and smoking spliffs before planting those seeds.. now yesterday we realize there was 2 that didnt have holes in the botom - and they have been about 1 week without water - atleast. since to be able to suck from the tray it needs to be able to have holes hehe.. they were alive - a lsdc and a PTK pure from tomhill.. so we got some sturdy genetics here they obviously got sorted out -lets see how they go.

 

[Xtrakritical]

Funny?!

Funny?!

You potheads have a funny sense of humor!

Just stopping in to say hello friends

Xtra

 

[bonecarver_OG]

i `prefeer to refeer to panic inducing f*ckups to that - makes it feel beter it was funny

the funny part is the seedlings were still alive with a healthy root system - even grown like in "soil" style - but obviously they are much smaler

 

[bonecarver_OG]

this is our kali mist astroboy moms - our fave phenos of the cross from holygong


around the 2nd of january:

after 23 days


last pics - the kalimist moms before a bit of special treatment. and they have given 30 + clones already,

 

[muddy waters]

help me

help me

hi bonecarver,

i have a coco problem. maybe.

i'm wondering if you or anyone else has any experience using coco as part of a soilless mix? i live outside of the U.S.-Europe-Australia hydroponics industry's range so I work with strictly raw materials. My mix I've been using for a year or two now consists of basically 1/4 of each of following 4 ingredients: coco, castings, vermiculite, and sand. to this i'll add some bokashi (an organic amendment from anaerobic decomposition of fish wastes and other stuff), some raw bone meal, some dolomite lime, and that's it. nitrogen is supplied via watering with diluted urine, and some comfrey and kelp tea is used during flowering, along with ash water.

i have had decent success with this formula, for instance here's nirvana ppp in 1.5 liter bottles:




however:
i'm working with some clones now, in smaller pots with the same basic mix, and i'm getting obvious signs of deficiency or pH problems: those twisted, leathery leaves, yellowing leaves (with no response to added nitrogen), signs that look like Mg shortage yet no response to watering with epson salts water. so i need a crash course on coco i'm afraid. i use a fairly cheap brand and i wonder if it could be that i didn't wash the coco beforehand to get rid of seasalt? or what about this tendency of coco to lock up magnesium--what causes that exactly? if anyone wants to venture a guess i'd be much obliged

thanks

 

[axel neek]

If you didn't wash the coco before hand then that's almost certainly your problem.
Not all coco contains high levels of sea salts as some coco is grown inland.
But most if not all brands of coco contain high levels of potassium, and should be rinsed before using.
I don't think coco locks up magnesium, it's just without that initial flush, the excess potassium doesn't allow room for any magnesium within the matrix of the coco
or something like that

 

[gaiusmarius]

hi bonecarver,

i have a coco problem. maybe.

i'm wondering if you or anyone else has any experience using coco as part of a soilless mix? i live outside of the U.S.-Europe-Australia hydroponics industry's range so I work with strictly raw materials. My mix I've been using for a year or two now consists of basically 1/4 of each of following 4 ingredients: coco, castings, vermiculite, and sand. to this i'll add some bokashi (an organic amendment from anaerobic decomposition of fish wastes and other stuff), some raw bone meal, some dolomite lime, and that's it. nitrogen is supplied via watering with diluted urine, and some comfrey and kelp tea is used during flowering, along with ash water.

i have had decent success with this formula, for instance here's nirvana ppp in 1.5 liter bottles:




however:
i'm working with some clones now, in smaller pots with the same basic mix, and i'm getting obvious signs of deficiency or pH problems: those twisted, leathery leaves, yellowing leaves (with no response to added nitrogen), signs that look like Mg shortage yet no response to watering with epson salts water. so i need a crash course on coco i'm afraid. i use a fairly cheap brand and i wonder if it could be that i didn't wash the coco beforehand to get rid of seasalt? or what about this tendency of coco to lock up magnesium--what causes that exactly? if anyone wants to venture a guess i'd be much obliged

thanks

in coco one of the big rules is if in doubt flush it the f... out, lol. yes a good flush before you start is essential, speciaally with the cheaper brands of coco. i assume you have no ec meter to tell you what level of salt build up you have in your medium. if you do measuring the run off will let you know right away if you have heavy salt build up.

normally speaking after the flush things should get back on track with a normal feeding. as you don't want to flush all the nutrients out and leave nothing for the plant to use.

the other thing is that some strains are more easy going then others. it might be that you need some good cannabis specific flowering nutes hesi coco a+b comes to mind. a bit cheaper then canna and just as good.

using urine is mainly interesting for vegging plants isn't it? lol, this post has brought back the feeding your plants with piss thread on overgrow. man was that a funny and interesting thread.

anyway, i'm no expert at using urine and such, but i do know that epsom salts are a bad idea in coco. maybe thats causing the problem?

good luck sorting it out.

 

[muddy waters]

guys, much appreciate the info. i still need to read up on the chemistry and art of coco; i'd been able to neglect it previously as i was buying a slightly better grade, musta been pre-rinsed. well... from now on, i'm a soak the funk out of it, alright.

 

[muddy waters]

sorry gaius, forgot to address your question about urine: i use it interchangeably with fish tank water and i use either throughout the life cycle of the plant, but once flowering has really set in, i'll use less or more diluted. the bone meal (P) and ash water (K) are my flowering ferts.

 

[bonecarver_OG]

im with gaius about the flushing - when in doubt flush with ph adjusted water.

yeah - id be carefull with adding any extra salts into coco - id rather give them quelates. urine has a lot of salt in it - might also be part of the trouble.

try buying coco nutes over the net if u can. thats my only tip - and the second is to use only well documented coco. does ur brand have a webpage with extensive informacion?

i use israeli coco for rose growing - its od but it hs found its way here in spain. brand is calle PELE or something. i find it really good. but check up on the analysis of the serious companies. trust only the well known brands, because cocofibre is easy to produce but a bit costy to prepare for best growth condicions. therefore go for the a bit more expensive brands.

second note - spain and israel are two countries that use de salinified seawater in the tap water and it has faily high salt levels. the israelis are doing really interesting hydro experiments. i presumed since we are pretty much in similar areas the israeli coco works very well. even though i still mix my water down about 50% with distilled water. but the israelis are experimenting with quite high ec salty water wit good reults. i think they use in those cases nft since it flushes continuosly.

coco in it self (the good brands) has a low ph around 5.5 to 6 and that is too low for soil growing anyway. might cause problems maybe also in this case.

dificult one muddy

ah check if they have root damage.

peace all

 

[muddy waters]

hola bonecarver,

heh... well actually i'm kinda boycotting israel and besides the market here in s. america only has local product anyway, of varying quality. i had been buying more expensive coco and now i see it was money well spent ey? i'm going to soak the cheap coco i bought for next time i use it, with regular tap water (pH ~7.3, very little carbonate buffer). the acidifying biological processes happening in the castings and nitrification should drop the pH into the 6-6.5 range.

shit that was stupid of me tho not soaking the coco first. but what's strange is that of 6 clones, while none are performing very well, 5/6 are at least green, just some twisted leaves, still growing, while only one, the largest, with about 9-10 nodes, really went on the fritz with yellowing leaves, red/purple veins, extremely slow growth, and now completely wilted leaves. i think i probably killed it by a variety of cruelties, the unflushed coco being part of it and overwatering probably also to blame now that i dug up the roots and see that they're yellowish brown, underdeveloped, not looking too pleased. so pH/nute lockout with suffocation would be the diagnosis.

i doubt urine was much of a factor since i moderate salt in my diet and wasn't recycling this mix so i really doubt the salts would be causing problems where they hadn't when i grew with the same exact technique (but different coco) before.

i apologize if this wasn't the place to discuss using coco as an amendment only. thanks a lot bone axel and gaius for the tips though! appreciate it

 

[bonecarver_OG]

the name is pelemix

the company is from srilanka (INDIA) also has sales centers in israel and other big hydro growing countries like spain - because of the hydro culture there and here (im talking scientific research not how ppl grow in general) the huge amount of research has not to be neglected - even if u like israel or not we ARE talking science - not religion, politics or economics id hate to mix politics into a grow thread. u know what i mean - just to avoid flaming etc.

PELEMIX is represent here in spain, israel,india and srilanka. the page of info about this outstanding quality of coco:

http://www.pelemix.com/index.php?goto=bep&page_from=67

and

http://www.pelemix.com/index.php?goto=bep&page_from=187

if any one finds a similar analysis of other coco brands - it would be very interesting to compare them. all other cocobrands i have tried have given me really good results.

in the beginning of growing in coco most misstakes and troubles i had were due to nutes not made for coco. i have tried several brands of good coco brands - and all with similar results. maybe some hold the water less time etc.. but i was looking at the buds

in soil growing a ph aroun 6.8 to 7 is the best as far as i know - a low ph will give u trouble to take up nutes.

quote"Factors Affecting Fertilizer Uptake

Contact: Diane Relf, Extension Specialist, Environmental Horticulture
Posted April 1997




There are numerous factors that affect how easily and well trees and shrubs will take up fertilizers. The most important of these is fertilizer form. Generally, inorganic, fast-release, or liquid forms are faster-acting than organic, slow-release, or dry forms. Compared to synthetic fertilizer formulations, most organic fertilizers contain relatively low concentrations of actual nutrients.


Soil composition-- Soils high in clay particles will absorb (bind to their surface) more nutrients, while fertilizer will leach (wash through) faster through sandy soil. Organic matter in the soil increases its nutrient-holding capacity and contributes nutrients upon its breakdown.
Soil microorganisms-- Some fungi and bacteria may "tie up" nutrients while others convert the fertilizer to a form that the plant can take up. Some microorganisms are involved in mutually beneficial (symbiotic) relationships with plants. Rhizobium bacteria grow within the roots of some plants. They convert nitrogen from the air into a usable form for the plant while obtaining nutrition from the host plant.
Soil pH-- Extremes in pH affect availability of plant nutrients and the concentration of plant-toxic minerals. At low pH levels, calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium become unavailable and manganese can concentrate at toxic levels. At high pH values, phosphorus, iron, copper, zinc, boron, and manganese become less available.
Nutrient availability-- Nutrients may be present but may first require conversion to an "available" form that the plant is capable of taking up and utilizing. Conversion to an available form is affected by soil microorganisms, pH, soil moisture and chemical reactions.
Soil moisture content-- Most nutrients are taken up via the soil solution, so soil water is needed to dissolve them.
Soil aeration-- Oxygen is needed in the soil to help roots with uptake processes. Where there is no oxygen, such as in flooded sites, sugar cannot be utilized by the plants to produce energy for nutrient uptake. Decomposed organic matter helps develop good air-water relationships in the soil.
Soil temperature-- Nutrient uptake is faster in warmer soils than in cold soils.
Plant condition-- Plants under stress will be less able to take up nutrients, generally due to a reduced or damaged root system.
Competition-- If the roots of many plants occupy an area, a reduced amount of nutrients will be available for each. When using close spacing for vegetable plants, more fertilizer will be needed in a bed than in a conventionally spaced row garden. Weeds where present will take up nutrients intended for landscape or crop plants. Reduction of weeds will reduce fertilizer needs.
(Prepared by Virginia Nathan, Extension Technician, Consumer Horticulture, Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, VA 24061-0327, and approved by Bonnie Appleton, Extension Specialist, Nursery Crops.)


Visit Virginia Cooperative Extension test "end quote


the flush to drain is part of the secret of coco. keeps it allways clean.

this is the brand i was using before:

http://www.projar.es/pagi/h/una/horti8.html

a very cheap brand and local - its based just a few minutes away. but finally the salt levels and the ec were too high - but still growing the way i did i never had trouble with it. same brand of coco is producing most veggies eaten in europe.

yep ur right - those famouos spanish tomatoes and red peppers etc in the supermarkets are all down from my area all grown in coco hydro almost. impessive setups.

soaking coco in tap water will asure a higer salt level afterwards in the coco. use atleast 50% distilled water to get the salts out - think that the coco has been dehydrated so all the salts of the water used for soaking - gets sucked in the inside of the fibers and coir. instead distilled water will pull it out by the force of osmosis. simple

nice to learn about new techs muddy it is interesting -the discussion, please post some shots so we see how they are doing.

peace all

 

[bonecarver_OG]

yellow ands brown roots are dead - try to get some enzyme to break them down - or u can even cut the by hand. root rot will kill a plant.

aaah - i forgot - ad a few splashes of hydrogensuperoxide into the water - this will areate the roots and maybe even break down dead material a bit. check ph before watering and adjust. i many times throw in a spash of it into the nute rez. or even to spray and clean clones. it kills funghie and bacteria but not plan mater at low mixes

peace all

 

[axel neek]

Hey bonecarver, here's the link to the brand I use
here
i haven't really checked out their site, it's late already and I have to get up super early
so I don't know how much info they give
but thought ya might like to check it out

 

[muddy waters]

bone, thanks buddy for all the info. i'm going to post some pictures this afternoon so you can make a better judgment.

thanks for the clarification on pelemix too; unfortunately we don't have it in my country (no hydroponics industry), but we do have some brands that are better than others. i need to stop being so cheap and buy the stuff that works (without being rinsed 100 times).

 

[Guest]

You shouldn't have to rinse too much if you use warm( or even hot) water for rinsing. It works better than cold for removing the salts. It's also best to use hot when rinsing your coco to reuse after a crop.

Cheers,
SH

 

[gaiusmarius]

You shouldn't have to rinse too much if you use warm( or even hot) water for rinsing. It works better than cold for removing the salts. It's also best to use hot when rinsing your coco to reuse after a crop.

Cheers,
SH

hey suburbanhomeboy, that's some thing i'm gonna try. maybe not with hot water but nice and warm, it will be interesting to see if the salts come out with less flushing. sounds logical.

 

[bonecarver_OG]

hm yeah it does interesting i allways try to water with room temp water - like around 20 even when flushing

peace

 

[Grenouille]

i'm going to try a coco grow, handwatered.

what is the benefit of using COCO SPECIFIC nutes over regular hydro nutes?
Is there any difference apart from the npk value? :smile:

also - is it possible to start handwatering coco without an EC meter?
i haven't quite grasped the relationship of ec/ppm yet

i have hard-water if that makes a difference.

thanks for your posts bc, helping out a lot of people here, same for gaius

 

[gaiusmarius]

hey Grenouille,

your questions have all been answered, but here goes a short version, for more detail do a search of this section.

when using good quality coco specific nutrients you are making your life much easier, you can then rely on the fert have the right nutrients in the right form to ideally suit the needs of cannabis in coco. hence when something seems not quite right, you know that it has to be a ph thing, or a dosage problem, through process of elimination you quickly arrive at the solution to your problem, what ever it might be.

yes they have differing npk ratios to average hydro ferts. coco makes plants use more N in flowering then any other medium. in fact my canna coco A+B nutes are for both veg and flowering.

you can hand water without an ec meter, bonecarver has been doing it the whole time without a ec meter. although i personally don't like not having both ec and ph meters. ec and ppm meters are basically measuring the salt content, which tells you how much ferts you are giving, ppm is the american system, ec is the european system, then you get cf, which is the same as ec. there is a way to convert ppm into ec, i don't know the formula off hand though.

how hard is your water? do you get lots of chalk inside your kettle? how is the ph of your tap water. the ec of the tap water would tell you a lot too. basically your tap water should generally be fine to use, even if it isn't perfect. in the worst case you can get an ro filter and use 50/50 ro/tap.