The Day America Died..

[spectrum]

Applicability to U.S. Citizens
The text of the law states that its "Purpose" is to "establish procedures governing the use of military commissions to try alien unlawful enemy combatants engaged in hostilities against the United States for violations of the law of war and other offenses triable by military commission." Legal and Constitutional scholar Robert A. Levy commented that the Act denies habeas rights only to aliens, and that U.S. citizens detained as "unlawful combatants" would still have habeas rights and could challenge their detention. While formally opposed to the Act, Human Rights Watch has also concluded that the new law limits the scope of trials by military commissions to non-U.S. citizens including all legal aliens. CBS Legal expert Andrew Cohen has commented on this question and writes that the "suspension of the writ of habeas corpus – the ability of an imprisoned person to challenge their confinement in court—applies only to resident aliens within the United States as well as other foreign nationals captured here and abroad" and that "it does not restrict the rights and freedoms and liberties of U.S. citizens anymore than they already have been restricted".

so it only applies to non-US citizens, although i dont think it would be too hard for them to wrongfully imprison a US citizen and get away with it (patriot act etc).

 

[Guest]

Even an Eric Rudolph or a Timothy McVeigh had the right under King George in the 1700s to ask to see the evidence against them; habeas corpus = 'show me the body,' or show me the proof that I have committed a crime.

This is a direct assault not only on a traditional aspect of 'rights of due process,' but on the concept of checks and balances in a supposedly 'free' country. 'Free?' My arse!!

I'm neither liberal nor conservative; two terms that mean next to nothing anymore, taking more letters than they possess definition... at least in today's Amerikkka.

But whether it's another GW or another Hillary, -no- single individual person in this world should have the unchecked authority to decide who receives due process, and who doesn't.

We're not one step closer to fascism, we're -in- fascism.

And we've been headed that way for quite some time, whether it be via Ronnie Ray-gun's financial reporting laws and drug war, Bill Clinton's 1993 & 1996 'anti-terror' legislation, or whether it be through the various bills championed by that king of cowards, liars, and pussies, GW Bush..

-ALL- of this has been in the news for anyone with eyes. But you might've needed to avert your eyes from the sit-coms and the football games in order to actually see it.

And if you want your country back, you'd better be prepared to -TAKE- it back. And I don't mean by electing the next 'good cop' in this perpetual game of 'good cop-bad cop' that we play at the ballot box every other frigging November with the menus pre-defined and put together by the corporatists who have made damned sure that when they financially back both (candidate A) and (candidate B), that they're guaranteed 'business as usual' either way..

"When those who swear an oath to uphold the law, instead choose to violate the law, then there is no law!!"

Liberty or death!!

moose eater

 

[wantaknow]

i truly believe this will be used on the the people who refuse to recieve the mark of the beast as it wil no doubt be use to stop terriorism and only terriorist will refuse it

 

[wantaknow]

nice sig moose

 

[ethereal]

for the average had-working 9-5 mutt its a good thing if anything they just want national security so prolly wont see much of an uproar.

however, for people who are already paranoid, have something to hide, or live an alternative lifestyle, tis notta so good..

i think its a shame, yeah, dont get me wrong,
but it will definitely keep the USA safer and deter sleeper cells and illegal immigration, from the sounds of it at least.

any1 have a video link OFF google for folks who are so noid they wont even use google?
cuz i sure as hell aint clickin that shit!! lol thanks and good day yall

 

[Guest]

Denying basic human rights rarely, if ever, makes a country safer. It makes it less safe fairly quickly, because such audacious actions quite rightfully -piss people off-!

Read the definition(s) of 'terrorist' and 'terrorism' under the USA PA. If they were any more broad, tractor trailer rigs would fall through the 'cracks.'

Consider that John Asscrotch, the former AG, personally believed that several of the political action groups that many of us here hold dear represented forms of 'terrorist groups.'

We're not even dealing with your and my definitions of 'terrorism' here. We're dealing with -theirs-. And that should scare the hell outa' anyone not considered to be a member in the zealots' rather tight camps.

moose eater

 

[iluvtogrograss]

If anyone is interested watch the MSNBC show called "Countdown" The host is Keith Olbermann, he did a nice piece on this the night GW signed the bill. He will no doubt address it again. Countdown is on at 8 PM eastern time.
The Military Commisions Act as it is called is a very scary thing for all of us.

 

[Guest]

Additionally, and to clarify what this can mean, remember when Donnie Rumsfeld said that those in Gitmo were 'the worst of the worst,' while the Red Cross had stated (along with others) that many of them were the product of random street sweeps or 'drag-nets' in Iraq and elsewhere?

Well, in support of the Red Cross' and others' claims, it seems that Gitmo recently released a couple hundred of those 'worst of the worst' due to their innocense... after spending several years in that hole....

If that had been you, would you feel all warm and fuzzy, or would you be looking for some pay-back??

And now we're talking about taking rights of appeal and clarification away altogether.

The motherfuckers running this country deserve a Nuremburg trial, and summary judgement, not respect, praise, and a pay check.

moose eater

 

[Jam Master Jaco]

BUMP

Outrageous!!! Outrageous!! Do not speak ill of the government in public anymore everyone!

*edit* Well this is the final straw for me. I have always backed our government as doing what is best and true, but the possiblities for this to be abused are far too great. Until this flat out STUPID act gets repealed I am not a proud American citizen.

So now I sit here and question "what can be done?". I can sit here and bitch and moan that something needs to be done...but that would just make me a stereotypical lazy stoner because I can sit on my ass and bitch all day but that won't change anything. So I still wonder, if I went outside and started protesting I
1. Wouldn't be able to go to work, so I'd get fired
2. Wouldn't be able to go to school, so I'd have to drop out
3. Get arrested without the possibility of a phone call, locked away for what could potentially be the rest of my life, and never heard from again.

Scary scary scary scary scary. You know I never agreed with people who said Bush was a Nazi or a dictator...but this is EXACTLY what started happening in Germany to lead up to WW2! I can't believe this has happened. What a mockery of our "free" society. The slow stripping of our rights started with the war on drugs...and this is just one of a few final seals. We are no longer free people by any means, we are now simply pawns. Pawns who will be thrown away like scrap if we make the wrong move.

One cannot fully blame the president though...all he did was sign it into place. He is just as responsible as the asshat congressmen that WE voted for who wrote this law and passed it up for his approval.

So now the only thing I feel I can do without completely ruining my life I have worked hard the past few years cementing into place I have to go about my life like this law never happened. I will smile at the police when I see them, and live like a sheep until the act is repealed. Ridiculous.

/RANT ON

 

[Duppy]

Wow.

I wish I had a reason to disbelieve or disagree with one thing that you said, Moose.

But I don't.

These are dark times.

 

[Haps]

We have the chance to change things in a couple weeks - I VOTE - so I can bitch about it if I want to. ARE you stoners going to go out and vote? VOTE VOTE VOTE. And don't pass a joint to anyone who will not commit to go vote - until after the election.
H

 

[Guest]

I vote in every election, Haps. Not because I believe that they offer serious alternatives, or even that they're conducted honestly (there's still approximately 105,000 'mystery votes' yet unexplained in the Alaska '04 state and federal election).

I vote in every local, state, and federal race that I know something about, despite what I know or believe about the structure.

But much of what is contained in the USA PA was attempted in various other bills during Clinton's tenure as well.

I don't bet too much usually; life has tons of built-in gambles already.

When I -do- gamble, I tend to wager in pizzas. I'm a sucker for good food, and believe that most other persons are too. ;^>)

But I'll wager a deluxe pizza that even if the Demopublicans seize control of the House, Senate, -and- the Oval Office in the next two elections, much of the fascist tripe that was generated and found its way into law in this last 6 years, or even the preceding 20 years, will not be repealed.

We're plum full of frightened, spineless, cappucino-sucking, call-girl and page-addicted fundamentalist, shirt-sleeve-religion-wearing bureaucrats who crave power, and sell false security as a 'fix' to the fear that they have helped in so many ways to generate. (Not that there aren't individual exceptions to those descriptions, but that there's way too few of those exceptions in those bodies.)

I'll vote, but I'll also keep all of my hardware oiled, too.

And that pizza bet is open to all takers. ;^>) But go easy on me if I lose. I'm often cash poor.... which is why I often bet in pizzas... ;^>)

moose eater

 

[Fat Albert]

hey look its a bush supporter

Am I the only one who's absolutely appalled at this picture and its text? Threatening or implying violence in response to disagreements in political philosophy is uncalled for on ICMAG. Or does tolerance only extend to those with whom you agree? For shame....

Fat A

 

[Duppy]

Am I the only one who's absolutely appalled at this picture and its text?

Apparently you were not too appalled to show it to us yet again.

Yeah, to be honest, I was pretty appalled the first time. And again the second.

But that was a page or two ago already, and the unpleasant image with its ugly and ignorant sentiment was starting to fade from the forefront of my consciousness. (I hate violent shit like that.)

But thanks to you, Al, THERE IT IS AGAIN.

Thanks a buttload.

 

[Fat Albert]

Apparently you were not too appalled to show it to us yet again.

Yeah, to be honest, I was pretty appalled the first time. And again the second.

But that was a page or two ago already, and the unpleasant image with its ugly and ignorant sentiment was starting to fade from the forefront of my consciousness. (I hate violent shit like that.)

But thanks to you, Al, THERE IT IS AGAIN.

Thanks a buttload.

Ah, yes.....I forgot that ignorance is bliss. I should've just let that slip off into the sunset. Shame on me for calling attention to a wildly inappropriate post. Perhaps if somebody had addressed the issue before me (like YOU, for instance), I wouldn't have had to re-post it. You say you didn't approve of the pic, yet you didn't even bother to post about that. My apologies....you can rest assured that I'll remain complicit and keep my mouth shut in the future.

Fat A

 

[Guest]

Fat Albert wrote:
>>>implying violence in response to disagreements in political philosophy is uncalled for <<<

I can see your point, Fat Albert.

But I also believe that we're no longer simply talking about intellectual debate and discussions of objective philosophy here. We're talking about persons (not of one party or another, but rather both parties, in different ways, and in different extremes) who see fit to piss on their oaths to uphold the concepts of freedom and justice as defined in limited ways in the Bill of Rights specifically, and the U.S. Constitution in general, in ways that haven't been legal or acceptable in this hemisphere since who-knows-when.

I feel compelled to state quite clearly that any person intending to seize from me or mine that freedom which is ours, who makes themselves physically available, had best be wearing a shitload of kevlar w/ ceramic plate inserts, and had best have kissed their kin so-long that morning..

A lotta' people have died for far less.

The fellow in the pic looks somewhat similar to the way that Mussolini looked after the masses in Italy dragged him through the streets. Fascists and pro-fascist supporters might nervously remember such historical tid bits..

Ain't none of us immune to our own karma.

moose eater

 

[Fat Albert]

Fat Albert wrote:
>>>implying violence in response to disagreements in political philosophy is uncalled for <<<

I can see your point, Fat Albert.

But I also believe that we're no longer simply talking about intellectual debate and discussions of objective philosophy here. We're talking about persons (not of one party or another, but rather both parties, in different ways, and in different extremes) who see fit to piss on their oaths to uphold the concepts of freedom and justice as defined in limited ways in the Bill of Rights specifically, and the U.S. Constitution in general, in ways that haven't been legal or acceptable in this hemisphere since who-knows-when.

I feel compelled to state quite clearly that any person intending to seize from me or mine that freedom which is ours, who makes themselves physically available, had best be wearing a shitload of kevlar w/ ceramic plate inserts, and had best have kissed their kin so-long that morning..

A lotta' people have died for far less.

The fellow in the pic looks somewhat similar to the way that Mussolini looked after the masses in Italy dragged him through the streets. Fascists and pro-fascist supporters might nervously remember such historical tid bits..

Ain't none of us immune to our own karma.

moose eater

Hi moose,

If it was a commentary on the fate of collaborators, it was crudely done (albeit effectively). I completely agree about the right to defend yourself against an intrusive gov't. hellbent on stealing your freedom. I don't like this legislation one bit, and I'm hoping that it doesn't pass muster when subjected to judicial review. But there was something about it that went beyond commentary, and I thought it was in poor taste. I don't want to get into a big pissing contest about it, but it seemed like more of a threat to me, and if it wasn't then I apologize. My quoted comment above was more in reference to this forum and how members treat each other. If it takes guns to ensure your freedom, so be it.

Cheers!
Fat A

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the reply Fat Albert.

And that's a rather nicely trich-loaded flower at the bottom of your post. ;^>)

I'm not even sure if the fellow who buffalosouljah was unloading on necessarily supports the fascist tripe coming out of the govvy these days (and we should -ALL- recall that GW didn't have too much trouble finding Dems to support his USA PATRIOT Act <without even reading it!!>, or the war in Iraq, etc. etc.).

I am personally a bit put off any time I hear/read someone saying, "Oh, don't worry. It -only- affects those perople over there..." because that line of reasoning implies that; a.) those people over there aren't deserving of basic human rights, and b.) that the system isn't as inherently fallible as it really is, in terms of identifying 'criminals'... whatever that is anymore.

That, and the fact that regimes that abuse power frequently have supporters who cheer them on. I see such supporters as being as responsible as the regime itself.

My own belief is that Amerika has, for a long time now, suffered something equivalent to bombardiers' or snipers' syndrome; pulling their voting levers or coloring in their circles at the ballot box, pertaining to questions that often have an effect, a very real effect, on very real people.

They rarely stop to ask themselves, let alone ask the gov., "Is this a question that I even have a right to answer? Since when did I receive the authority to dictate this sort of thing for my otherwise-sovereign and free neighbor, or any other adult human being for that matter?"

They don't ask. They seem not to care. Or to even be aware of the fucking boundary violations.

In a nut-shell, it's a significant part of why we even have a war on drugs that's tolerated/supported in this country

It pisses me off in ways that I can't even begin to adequately describe, despite being relatively articulate.

The place is coming to a head, Fat A. And I can't say that it'll be a moment too soon when it goes down.

Take good care, and enjoy that flower, or one like it.

moose eater

 

[Duppy]

Ah, yes.....I forgot that ignorance is bliss. I should've just let that slip off into the sunset. Shame on me for calling attention to a wildly inappropriate post. Perhaps if somebody had addressed the issue before me (like YOU, for instance), I wouldn't have had to re-post it. You say you didn't approve of the pic, yet you didn't even bother to post about that. My apologies....you can rest assured that I'll remain complicit and keep my mouth shut in the future.

Sweetie, I wasn't saying that you shouldn't complain about it, I was merely suggesting that you could do it with reposting that shit.

But I see that in my absence the FSM has swooped in and removed it from the thread. So now it's a moot point anyway.

Peace, bro.

 

[Duppy]

My own belief is that Amerika has, for a long time now, suffered something equivalent to bombardiers' or snipers' syndrome; pulling their voting levers or coloring in their circles at the ballot box, pertaining to questions that often have an effect, a very real effect, on very real people.

Yeah, and you don't have to go very far to see it, either. Nicaragua, Guatemala, Haiti, Cuba... all in our own back yard.

But these guys have taken it to a whole new level. And it seems like a lot of Americans are on the other side of the rifle for the first time.

I am hearing more republicans and conservatives voice these kinds of thoughts. They finally see what some of us saw all along. These guys aren't real conservatives or even real republicans. They are fascist thugs. And even a lot of lifelong republicans have had enough, I think. It's kind of encouraging. Maybe there is still hope for democracy.

Maybe not, though. If you want to get a good case of the creeps, go on the web and look up "Dominionism."

These people aren't fucking around. And they wield real power in the Republican party.