Where did he comment on this ? I would like to read it or see what he said
The best part about organics is all the waste, the virtue signaling, the techno babble and the ripoff artists. AKA I read da labels pt 6
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Where did he comment on this ? I would like to read it or see what he said
Stuntzii
Active member
Its not about being puristic or pedantic. Its what the EU-Öko-Verordnung is strict about. When your product contains a certain amount of insecticides or herbicides, your product is not marketable. Its regulations and stuff and in a way it is absolutely necessary. Also imho it is not religious in the scientific community. There is loads of reliable and valid scientific publications on conventional AND organic agriculture. Its even more likely that data on conventional agriculture is more biased, since looooads of studies are financed by big corp. But thats another topic.
I would say its a highly emotional topic. There isnt a right or wrong, but there is one option that goes towards some kind of sustainability and resource conservation and one is going way in the opposite direction.
And on "synthetics hitting the ground". Well, concerning soil life, especially microorganisms but also macro- and meso-fauna, it makes a huge difference at what you are applying to your soils
So long
Wasn’t meaning to sound glib in my comment about the organic ag movement being a religion or emotion based, but rather that people sometimes react (myself included) without having all the facts. Of course when it comes to research it should be unbiased and rigorous as possible. But I feel when it comes to regulations on what is allowed on organic farms the line between sythnetic, organic, mined or “man-made” can become muddy.
In my own outdoor and indoor gardening I lean heavily on the organics side. Also I think communities can do way more as far as supporting smaller farms on private land and encouraging re-use or repurposing of organic wastes.
Kind of a funny example from my own industry. We take our arborist woodchips to the dump and then buy woodchips from the building supply store because the arborist chips have “leaves and sticks in them”. The pendulum needs to swing more towards utilizing organic principles for sure.
There is always a way to frame an argument to make it seem solid and legitimate. Figures lie, and liars figure. I haven't seen the comments being referenced, so I'm not making a statement about his comment in particular. Just saying people need to be very careful about taking something that sounds 100% correct and running with it, without having a very firm grasp of the subject matter. Moreso than just about all of us here possess, myself very much included. I read everything with a critical eye. Everything. Then I try to find motives, if they're detectable, and filter everything through that lens.
Intellectual honesty is rare these days.
Hiddenjems
Well-known member
If you separate brush from wood, you can use your own chips. We sold wood chips to horse owners in Arizona. They would want to cover their entire area to keep dust down.
A whisper style sucks the brush in quick while a Vermeer bc1000 turns small logs into usable chips. Everything to big for the Vermeer goes to the sawmill or cut into firewood.
I agree. That’s why I wanted to hear what he said before I said anything. I am very curious to hear why he says organic farming is not sustainable
MROrganicGreenz
Active member
Also feed for livestock and export. Just a small amount for consumption. And this categorie also includes corn Fructose sirup production. But yeah thats a thing americans cant live without xD
You know it’s bad when we import organic corn instead of producing it here
Ca++
Well-known member
No farming is sustainable, so it's a little mute. Organic is just more resource intensive, generally for less output. It's not really debatable. I'm not sure why anybody would try.
I know it was in a video. I think a compilation, with Shane. The one where Bruce looks a bit beat, after some work on his skin. I don't think I have watched any others lately, but they do kinda blend into one. I don't remember documentaries. They just alter my way of thinking, if I learn something new. I just don't try to remember my source, as that's not useful
Stuntzii
Active member
Maybe having a smaller scale agrarian society is sustainable, like what the Inca had going on.
Once the horse and buggy went out of fashion it was hard to scrape enough manure to replenish the fields. Deposits of guanos’ would be depleted. To source all the npk in the correct ratio for todays intensive farming would be a bitch!
I remember the Bugbee video when he discussed the obstacles of pure organic farming. It’s easier to get the ratios of npk with less run off with synthetics I think was his argument. Something like to use manure for nitrogen you would get an overload of phosphorus that would pollute the crap out of the groundwater.
Hiddenjems
Well-known member
It’s not sustainable as a food source for 8 billion people. Without “modern” farming practices famine would be rampant.
Corn grown with modern techniques yields around 180+ bushels per acre. Organic grown corn averages 100ish.
Hiddenjems
Well-known member
xtsho
Well-known member
Organic farming isn't all that complicated. JADAM and KNF can be very productive and inexpensive. Neither is bad for the environment. Bruce Bugbee is a smart guy but he's not right about everything. But I think he's referring to organic fertilizers that need to be mined like rock phosphate and other minerals.
I fed an outdoor crop a few years back with nothing but JLF made from cannabis trimmings. How is that bad for the environment.
I remember years ago when I bought into the fancy fertilizer nonsense. That lasted for maybe 2 grows and then I went to a cheap inexpensive fertilizer and started growing better plants.
I fed an outdoor crop a few years back with nothing but JLF made from cannabis trimmings. How is that bad for the environment.
I remember years ago when I bought into the fancy fertilizer nonsense. That lasted for maybe 2 grows and then I went to a cheap inexpensive fertilizer and started growing better plants.
Yes that's true, but in places in Africa the only thing stopping widespread food shortages are gmo crops. I don't love the idea of it, but their benefit to humans are undeniable. The business model is what we should all be up in arms about, not the existence of gmo seed. That's where the evil is, in how those companies do business.
I’m not so sure about that. Many cultures around the world have been successfully farming for thousands of years before chemists started telling us that nature had it wrong.
I’m not saying I disagree with using salts because I use them now predominantly. I just don’t think chemical fertilizers are more sustainable then organics. Not sure how you can say it isn’t debatable.
Anyways, if you can find the bugabee reference, I would love to watch it
Rodale is in my neck of the woods. Their data suggests otherwise. I do agree it would be very hard to implement now without a crushing transition period.
Our culture in particular consumes entirely too much meat and animal products. If that could be reduced to where we could use more farming space to grow edible crops instead of all animal feed, I think it could work. It’s a pipe dream though because it will never happen
Old Piney
Well-known member
I’ve got one better if that’s what you want, go to the local brewer and get spent malted barley for free I get it for my chickens they love it . It’s just minus the sugar plus some yeast IMO that’s gotta be better . To me organics should be cheep ,use what you have or can get cheep or free
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Hiddenjems
Well-known member
Our society doesn’t eat enough unprocessed food like meat.
The more I fuel my body with animal products like eggs, dairy, and fresh meat, the better I feel. Loading up on carbs, plant based oils(except olive oil and a few others), sugar, artificial colors, and chemically processed foods, and I’m noticeably sluggish and sore.
Hiddenjems
Well-known member
What he specifically said was using manure as fertilizer provides excess phosphate when used to provide enough nitrogen. This causes a myriad of issues.
His point is that precision fertigation with salts allows for the feed to be customized for the crop almost eliminating fertilizer runoff.
MROrganicGreenz
Active member
Thats incorrect. Have a look at wide parts of india and africa. Gmos are not helping at all and people are going back to normal genetic material. Don't suck everything up big corp is feeding you. Gmo mostly helps big corp selling you "the whole package". Fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, all from one corp to get their weak and cranky plants to stay alive. People found out the hard way and are switching back. Only gmos that have a wide spread are corn for ethanol, cotton, canola and soy. All that is useless for feeding the World
But anyways, people fighting for gmo are often kinda religiously repeating what big corp tells them
