THCa Pseudopolymorphism

[Phenome]

I'm here to learn dude and I do know some shit. I understand that thc-a is solid and delta nine thc is a viscous liquid. I also notice in my own extracts that stability is almost always linked with the ratio of d9 thc to thca. Please correct me if I am wrong but I think this logic works in most cases. If I am deciding what material to run and I look at the test results I am going to run the stuff that has been decarbed the least.

Looking at test results from material, raw extract, and finished, the pattern I have noticed is that if the total thc content of the material is under 15 percent and more than 10 percent of the total thc content is d9thc, then it will turn out wet buddery or a less stable shatter. If the total thc content is higher than 15 percent than you can get away with up to 15 or 20 percent d9thc over total thc content. This is the logic I follow when deciding what trim to run for concentrates and what goes into edibles.

Of course there are other factors at play, a concentrate can have a high terpene content and almost no delta nine thc and still be wet and runny, or high cbd extracts are almost always wet.

I have seen some thc distillates that were surprisingly hard and snappy, this challenges my ideas and I remain open minded however I still won't waste time and money running material that is decarbed and getting unstable runny extracts.

So when I wrote that you can get stable shatter from decarboxylated material, you shouldn't have simply put " you are wrong" with no evidence to back it. Now that you have explained yourself clearly you have a leg to stand on. You should have clarified ratios, but even then me and you both know you can get shatter from material that is mostly decarboxylated. I shouldn't have said you don't know shit but I assume that when you just disagree with no reasoning

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

I doubt it. I dont think that is true shatter form, at a warm room temperature a shatter type extract will still be rock hard, mostly decarbed stuff used to get extract from i dont believe will ever be like that, it will get soft in warmer temps much more easily than non decarbed stuff.

 

[Intoxicus5]

https://imgur.com/a/oFeMb

 

[Phenome]

Shatter
Some go as low as 68f for some strains that have the finished texture of sticky yet flexible tree sap. Some strains finishing texture will be a tough sap that snaps if you pull it. They need heat of 85f-100f versus 95f-115f for strains that turn into good solid shatter. For some strains' shatters require up to 125f for 5 to 10 min for viscosity's sake. But anything over 115f-120f causes most material to budder. For a basic crumble wax, place the goopy bho solution in a vac oven set to -600mm Hg at 80 F - 85 F (27c-29c) over night. Flush fresh air through the system every half hour and oven vac for four or five hours until slab looks settled. Take slab out,let it sit and settle for 20 to 30 min but leave the oven on. Place your slab covered parchment paper on a cool surface , and pull the edge of the parchment paper down over the edge of the table. You want to see the shatter separate from the parchment paper. If it's sappy lower the oven temp to 70f (21c) or 80f (27c) and give it four more hours in the vac oven. If it's stable, put on powderless silicone gloves and flip slab. Consolidate edge oil into main body by folding it onto the top. Flip the patty every 12 hours, because pockets of butane get trapped between the bottem of the patty and the parchment paper. Check to make sure the heat is transferring through the whole resin. Repeat this gentle heat and pressure purging process three or four times over a couple days. Low pressure and slight heat over a long period of time result in a amber colored transparent, crystalline, amorphous solid. It should be brittle or at least snap and pull at room temperature.

Ed rosenthal beyond buds

 

[Intoxicus5]

Do you actually make oil Phenome?

 

[Intoxicus5]

 

[Intoxicus5]

 

[Phenome]

Do you actually make oil Phenome?

Yea.... I wouldn't be just disagreeing with no experience. That is why I am even on this thread because I won't let the inexperienced think that it's impossible to make stable shatter from decarbed material. How about you repost that pic with a note card next to it saying intoxis5. Because you asking that question makes me wonder if you even do

 

[Pangea]

The hypothesis is that THCa exhibits pseudopolymorphism and that the amorphous phase we call shatter exists because of that property.

Youve compared this to sugar glass and sugar before, no? Can you link to anything that shows that sugar glass is a pseudopolymorph?

When a oleoresin is in shatter form, THCa is not crystalline, the kinetic constraints are causing low molecular mobility which prevents the THCa molecules from forming a crystal lattice. When conditions reach a point that allows mobility the metastable shatter will start to nucleate and crystallize. If the THCa in a shatter is not in a crystalline form how can it be considered a specific polymorph form? You say shatter specifically is THCa displaying a pseudopolymorphic state, which means THCa is either incorporating water or a solvent directly into its crystal lattice(which doesnt exist in shatter form)

Shatter is a glass, until it crystallizes.

Likewise the polycrystalline phase colloquially known as budder/sugar wax/wax/etc is THCa crystallizing.

I'm talking about the full spectrum of consistencies, not just budder.

THCa exhibits pseudopolymorphism because it has an amorphous phase(shatter) also.




I have not used that term. I'm not sure why you are using it in manner that implies that I have.

If one hovers the cursor above the term "polymorphism" the definition that comes up is not relevant to this thread.

[/quote]
Its seems like there is a gap in logic and your jumping to a conclusion without any evidence or logic.

How can you look at two microscopic pics of identically shaped crystals and use them as a reference to them being polymorphic, or pseudo? The morphology difference between my large crystals and pure microscopic crystals is due to habits.

Its frustrating because its all connected but not relevant to the issue. IMO THCa may have several polymorphs, but IMO they wont make a difference in the physical states of resin, as in all polymorphs of THCa will produce identical glass resins and will/can crystallize into waxes/budders that we are all familiar with.

Might I suggest asking some crystallographers online to review our different stances?

 

[Phenome]

Do you actually make oil Phenome?

Maybe you are mad because I posted eds methods of purging? His idea is that slight heat and low pressure results in shatter. Your theory completely relies on thc-a levels.

 

[Intoxicus5]

Yea.... I wouldn't be just disagreeing with no experience. That is why I am even on this thread because I won't let the inexperienced think that it's impossible to make stable shatter from decarbed material. How about you repost that pic with a note card next to it saying intoxis5. Because you asking that question makes me wonder if you even do

Decarboxylated THC does not form shatter.

Only THCa has been evidenced as exhibiting pseudopolymorphism thus far.

 

[Intoxicus5]

Shatter is a glass, until it crystallizes. [/QUOTE]


[/quote]
Might I suggest asking some crystallographers online to review our different stances?[/QUOTE] That's why I'm putting this out there.

Yes, shatter may exhibit a glass transition.

Yes, it can be amorphous and crystalline at the same time.

 

[Intoxicus5]

Maybe you are mad because I posted eds methods of purging? His idea is that slight heat and low pressure results in shatter. Your theory completely relies on thc-a levels.

The content of your posts leaves me wondering how much oil you've actually made?
The way your speak it seems like you are lacking in practical and hands on experiences that others like myself have had.

 

[Phenome]

Decarboxylated THC does not form shatter.

Only THCa has been evidenced as exhibiting pseudopolymorphism thus far.

Ok cool bro. I'm done with this thread

 

[Intoxicus5]

"If the THCa in a shatter is not in a crystalline form how can it be considered a specific polymorph form?"
That's why it's pseudopolymorphism(or solvatomorhpism) and not true polymorphism.

The shatter effect would not happen without as solvent or something else to act as an interfering agent(terpenes as solvent in this case.)
Note I'm saying that it's analogous to candy making *not* that they are identical processes. It was the pseudopolymorphism that sugar exhibits i candy making that inspired me to research in this direction.

In candy making water is the solvent, although there is more to how the molecules interact.(Which is why Mark Scialdone said the answer is more complicated than a simple yes.)

https://scienceandfooducla.wordpress.com/2014/10/28/sugar-chemistry-of-hard-candies/

http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/e...ast-issues/archive-2014-2015/candymaking.html

 

[Phenome]

The content of your posts leaves me wondering how much oil you've actually made?
The way your speak it seems like you are lacking in practical and hands on experiences that others like myself have had.

Coming from the dude who post pics of other peoples work. How is my posts lack info? Explain. Your trying to back peddle when I show you reputable evidence from someone who really knows what there talking about. Question my experience all you want I don't care.

 

[Intoxicus5]

I may be incorrect about shatter being crystalline.

That does not preclude the hypothesis of pseudopolymorphism.

Thanks goes to you Pangea, I posted this to be challenged by people that know what they're talking about.

 

[Intoxicus5]

Coming from the dude who post pics of other peoples work. How is my posts lack info? Explain. Your trying to back peddle when I show you reputable evidence from someone who really knows what there talking about. Question my experience all you want I don't care.

Not playing with you anymore.

 

[Phenome]

Not playing with you anymore.

Remember you called me out first.
All that jargon can maybe confuse others but it contradicts my experience. I think your just a candy maker that read into some articles online, but hey, who cares what I think.

 

[A6 Grower]

Are you referring to decarboxylating ( by using heat) the oil after extracting fresh material that hasn't been decarboxylated? Because you for sure can get stable shatter from old slow cured (decarboxylated) material.

How much decarboxylated though?? I notice anything over 30-40% is sticky and runny and WILL NOT form a shatter. Properly stored old material most likely is only 20% activated even at a year old, which you can still achieve a shatter no problem, BUT when it goes above 30% thats when you start to see sticky runny oil instead of shatter.