THCa Pseudopolymorphism

[Pangea]

What exactly is your hypothesis?


When he begins his answer as:
"Simple answer is yes"

I would bet his complicated answer is, "no"

THCa polymorphism is NOT the reason for the different forms of a extract.

The only thing I disagree with his message is the part where he says, "simple answer is yes,"

He even describes the process change from shatter to "wax" as "crystallization (sugaring out)" which is exactly the difference and reason for the different physical forms of a cannabis resin concentrate, crystallization, not polymorphism.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

for some reason when i brought up some of Marks ideas on steam distillation, sunfire said the guy is just a bro, practices bro-science. I dont agree with sunfire on this; Mark seems to have his shit together, and does state he has a PHD in chemistry.

 

[Intoxicus5]

"In materials science, polymorphism is the ability of a solid material to exist in more than one form or crystal structure. Polymorphism can potentially be found in any crystalline material including polymers, minerals, and metals, and is related to allotropy, which refers to chemical elements. The complete morphology of a material is described by polymorphism and other variables such as crystal habit, amorphous fraction or crystallographic defects. Polymorphism is relevant to the fields of pharmaceuticals, agrochemicals, pigments, dyestuffs, foods, and explosives.

When polymorphism exists as a result of difference in crystal packing, it is called packing polymorphism. Polymorphism can also result from the existence of different conformers of the same molecule in conformational polymorphism. In pseudopolymorphism the different crystal types are the result of hydration or solvation. This is more correctly referred to as solvomorphism as different solvates have different chemical formulae. An example of an organic polymorph is glycine, which is able to form monoclinic and hexagonal crystals. Silica is known to form many polymorphs, the most important of which are; α-quartz, β-quartz, tridymite, cristobalite, coesite, and stishovite. A classical example is the pair of minerals, calcite and aragonite, both forms of calcium carbonate.

An analogous phenomenon for amorphous materials is polyamorphism, when a substance can take on several different amorphous modifications."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymorphism_(materials_science)

Being a crystalline does not exclude it from polymorphism.

Sugar and candy making is an edible example of pseudopolymorphism.

It's more complicated because of how the terpenes and lipids act as impurities on the crystallization of THCa.

 

[Intoxicus5]

for some reason when i brought up some of Marks ideas on steam distillation, sunfire said the guy is just a bro, practices bro-science. I dont agree with sunfire on this; Mark seems to have his shit together, and does state he has a PHD in chemistry.

Yes, Mark Scialdone is a legit PhD Chemist with patents, a google searchable history, and legit credentials.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Mark...me&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=Mark+Scialdone+patents

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/mark-scialdone/5b/762/24

 

[Intoxicus5]

Hmmm, I have a feeling there may be misinterpretation in regards to the term "polymorphism."

In physical science polymorphism is a different term than in biological sciences when talking about genetics.

I never thought to make such a clarification previously.

 

[Daub Marley]

Just a hunch here but when I think about that term it makes me think they wouldn't make up such a name unless it was something rare, unique, or special. The change in phase or viscosity due to contamination/solvents is very common and not worthy of such a fancy and/or specific name.
"In materials science, polymorphism is the ability of a solid material to exist in more than one form or crystal structure" to me this means a different crystal arrangement.
"Polymorphism . . . is related to allotropy" again this is differences in crystal structure
"The change between allotropic forms is triggered by the same forces that affect other structures, i.e. pressure, light, and temperature." Notice it says nothing about solvent and contamination/purity
I don't know exactly what to call it and really it doesn't matter much, but the information was more or less just given as a collection of facts. Its best to get a discussion going because individually we're not really experts at anything, but together we can be.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

I dont know about that first statement Daub, seems kind of presumptuous.

 

[Intoxicus5]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5961626&posted=1#post5961626

 

[mofeta]

I think Pangea is correct.

Polymorphism and psuedopolymorphism/solvatomorphism are terms that refer to differing arrangements of the elements of the unit cell of the lattice of a crystalline substance. This has little, if any part to play in the properties of the various resin products we enjoy.


The various extract properties- textures, viscosities etc. are pretty complicated, and some (notably Pangea's big crystals) have a large component that is crystalline. Lots of them are amorphous, and amorphous with microcrystal inclusions (sometimes numerous).

These microcrystals can probably play a big part in the texture of some products, but this doesn't have anything to do with crystal polymorphism. Maybe the microcrystals do come in a variety of unit cell arrangements (polymorphisms), including solvatomorphisms (where solvent molecules are incorporated into the unit cell), X-ray diffraction could determine this. I don't think this would alter the gross physical properties of the product though. I think that the formation of polymers/oligomers and possibly emulsions are better things to look into to explain waxes/budders and such.

I also agree that "rosin" is the wrong term for this heat-pressed resin that you guys are working with. Rosin is the solid component of a resin that is left when you remove the volatile terps, so it is the opposite of what you guys are making.

As to the mechanism of the heat-pressed resin tech, I think there may be some steam distillation going on, but not much. I think it is more of a mechanical process, with water vapor escaping the confined material pushes more than carries the liquefied terps out of the material, and the terps carry the cannabinoids in solution. I wouldn't overlook simple mechanical displacement (like wringing a cloth or squeezing a sponge) too.

 

[Pangea]

What exactly is your hypothesis?

Being a crystalline does not exclude it from polymorphism.

Of course being crystalline doesnt exclude it from being a polymorph, all polymorphs are crystalline, but not all crystals are polymorphs.

Hmmm, I have a feeling there may be misinterpretation in regards to the term "polymorphism."

In physical science polymorphism is a different term than in biological sciences when talking about genetics.

I never thought to make such a clarification previously.

Were you using genetic definitions and terms previously? As I said on the previous page, you are using specific scientific terms that do not apply to the discussion.

The impurities have an effect on how THCa crystallizes, but again keep polymorphism out of the discussion because its far removed from the question and hypothesis of resin end result physicality.

All thats happening is THCa is crystallizing in the solution, not "polymorphizing"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_growth

 

[Intoxicus5]

The hypothesis is that THCa exhibits pseudopolymorphism and that the amorphous phase we call shatter exists because of that property. Likewise the polycrystalline phase colloquially known as budder/sugar wax/wax/etc is THCa crystallizing.

I'm talking about the full spectrum of consistencies, not just budder.

THCa exhibits pseudopolymorphism because it has an amorphous phase(shatter) also.

"polymorphizing"

I have not used that term. I'm not sure why you are using it in manner that implies that I have.

If one hovers the cursor above the term "polymorphism" the definition that comes up is not relevant to this thread.

 

[Intoxicus5]

Polymorphism has to do with crystals. The resin that waxes, shatter, budders are not a crystal and thus cannot be a polymorphic substance.

The way in which and if THCa precipitates out of the solution of oleoresin will determine its state(wax, budder, shatter) and has nothing to do with its polymorphic nature(if it has one)

THCa is confirmed to be a solid crystal on it's own and THCa crystals have been observed in BHO.

Removal of lipids does prevent shatter or budder phenomena.
It is a variable though. Secondary solvent dewaxing results in a generally more "stable" shatter and larger grains sizes in budders.

The evidence indicates that THCa pseduopolymorpshism is indeed the cause of the phenomenon colloquially known as shatter and budder.

See: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5961626&posted=1#post5961626
and

 

[Intoxicus5]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5961626&posted=1#post5961626
Father Earth's images of THCa crystals in BHO.

 

[Phenome]

Dried/cured is not the same as decarboxylated. Look at your test results. Look at the ratio between the decarboxylated delta nine thc and the inactive thc-a

You clearly don't know shit. Decarboxylated just means that your removing carbon oxygen and hydrogen. When slow cured, you get rid of the cooh and it leaves the thc without a chain attached.

 

[Phenome]

You clearly don't know shit. Decarboxylated just means that your removing carbon oxygen and hydrogen. When slow cured, you get rid of the cooh and it leaves the thc without a chain attached.

Just because there is remainder of thc-a doesn't mean it isn't decarboxylated. It's a matter of how much is left compared to the thc 8/9. Your just trying to split hairs and act like because there is a remainder that it isn't fully decarboxylated when really your main point is that you can't decarboxylate while curing, when really that's the main goal of a slow cure

 

[Intoxicus5]

Properly cured material does not decarboxylate at the same rate as material left in open air to dry.

A 6 month cure of White Widow X Heavy Duty Fruity yielded a very stable product that was also very red. Wish I had picture of that run.

I just ran a bunch of The Doctor trim that was dried in open air for a couple months(bad storage practices, barely any terps either) and the product is slightly sappy form teh THCa that teh did decarboxylate.

The THC is acting as interfering agent to the THCa crystallization hence why it remains a shatter with barely any terps.

 

[Intoxicus5]

THCa could be a true polymorph.

No one has demonstrated this and I have not observed anything that indicates this personally and neither has any information I have come across indicate that THCa is a true polymorph.

 

[thegreenman91]

You clearly don't know shit. Decarboxylated just means that your removing carbon oxygen and hydrogen. When slow cured, you get rid of the cooh and it leaves the thc without a chain attached.

I'm here to learn dude and I do know some shit. I understand that thc-a is solid and delta nine thc is a viscous liquid. I also notice in my own extracts that stability is almost always linked with the ratio of d9 thc to thca. Please correct me if I am wrong but I think this logic works in most cases. If I am deciding what material to run and I look at the test results I am going to run the stuff that has been decarbed the least.

Looking at test results from material, raw extract, and finished, the pattern I have noticed is that if the total thc content of the material is under 15 percent and more than 10 percent of the total thc content is d9thc, then it will turn out wet buddery or a less stable shatter. If the total thc content is higher than 15 percent than you can get away with up to 15 or 20 percent d9thc over total thc content. This is the logic I follow when deciding what trim to run for concentrates and what goes into edibles.

Of course there are other factors at play, a concentrate can have a high terpene content and almost no delta nine thc and still be wet and runny, or high cbd extracts are almost always wet.

I have seen some thc distillates that were surprisingly hard and snappy, this challenges my ideas and I remain open minded however I still won't waste time and money running material that is decarbed and getting unstable runny extracts.

 

[thegreenman91]

Just because there is remainder of thc-a doesn't mean it isn't decarboxylated. It's a matter of how much is left compared to the thc 8/9. Your just trying to split hairs and act like because there is a remainder that it isn't fully decarboxylated when really your main point is that you can't decarboxylate while curing, when really that's the main goal of a slow cure

My point is that you CAN decarb by curing and this is a huge contributing factor in the instability of concentrates made with old material. I don't think this is anything new.

 

[Intoxicus5]

My point is that you CAN decarb by curing and this is a huge contributing factor in the instability of concentrates made with old material. I don't think this is anything new.

You are correct