Team Microbe's Nose Dive into No-till (2nd cycle)

[Former Guest]

I used a seedling celled tray with water underneath. A little coco mixed in with some soil/perlite and I got 26 outta 30 above ground. When I wanted to bury deeper, I dryed out the dirt and popped out a really good set of roots.

 

[intotheunknown]

Rocky mountain EWC???
Where did ya pick those up at?

 

[Team Microbe]

Rocky mountain EWC???
Where did ya pick those up at?

http://www.highyieldorganics.net/collections/worm-castings/products/worm-castings

 

[GHGrower]

This thread, info from BaS, CC and MicrobeMan have all blown my mind to little pieces. I am now taking the first steps into a 5 year duration experiment, to carefully measure the effects of these combined methods on soil. Methods will include microbe counts with a compound microscope and hemacytometer, measured lux levels in lights through all growth phases, comprehensive climate control, and a visual analysis of mineral breakdown via regular intervals of examining mineral layers of centrifuged soil samples (enough centrifugal force will cause different minerals of different densities to separate out, sorted by weight and mass. To that end, it's relatively easy to separate soil components back 'out' of the mix and visually compare them to past samples to get an eye on plant consumption rates of different soil additions with respect to cannabis and bioregional variables). Additionally, I will be sending off samples for yearly soil analysis to establish a rate of breakdown in my given system. My dream is to see permaculture become a science sans the politics, and so I want to deliver some actual data.


Some changes I plan to make to the general method:

- As coconut endosperm contains a very high amount of phytohormones (moreso than coconut water), I plan to add coconut flour to my soil recipe, at a rate of 1/4 cup per cubic foot in addition to coconut water to my AACT.

- Instead of adding all soil at once and leaving alone for a month after water, I apprehensively plan to build what I call a "7 Year Soil". My 20 gallon container will get 2.5 gallons of soil, and a layer of cover crop. After a week, that crop gets chopped and buried with another 2.55 gallons of soil, and more seeds sprouted. This continue for 2 months, until we have 7 total layers of growth, which gets chopped, capped with EWC and then mulched with hay to sit for a solid week in the dark to think about what it did before turning the lights back on to incubate for 1 more month. From that point forward, I treat it with the usual regime.
As the saying goes, the initial soil should get the most attention, so I want to add something I've been seeing missing from so many of these tutorials: Green manure. That is, fresh, still-living green matter to bury and decompose before uv and oxidation effects begin to take hold. I'm calling it a 'seven year soil', because you're effectively condensing 7 years of cover cropping and topdressing into a 2 month contract. My aim is to get to the mythical 'eventually all you'll need is water' period I hear others talking about sooner. What I see really missing from that mechanic to get to that final stage is green manure and microbial diversity.

- Instead of adding aloe juice to my AACT, I'll add pureed aloe, and 1/2 crushed aspirin for a salicylic acid boost (aspirin isn't exactly 100% organic, but it's not going away anytime soon and is dirt cheap).

- Finally, my AACT will begin with a microbial starter. I'll combine EWC, Barley Malt Flour (1:30), water (1:300) and set it out underneath a fruit tree overnight (ideal ground for collecting wild yeasts in the air and other exotic bugs). The idea here is to make a 'sponge' starter, like one makes a sponge starter for making bread, for the same reasons. Have higher initial microbial counts to reduce overall stress in the rapid environmental changes the mirobes will be privy to, and allow the cells to divide and increase sooner than other methods. At least that's my logic behind it.


My years of reading Geoff Lawton have taught me that permaculturists should measure their time in units of 5, 10 and 15 years rather than individual seasons and years, to keep a constant eye on the consequences of their investment. To that end, putting in 3 extra months of time to prep for a bigger ROI seems like cake to me.

I begin mixing soil and charging biochar tonight! Cheers

 

[nothernblue]

Hey TM, just wanted to thank you for this and your last no-till thread. Its helped me so so much. Its a nice concentrated version of the other more dense threads, and really helped me to breakdown and understand the no-till process. grow on brother!!

 

[intotheunknown]

http://www.highyieldorganics.net/collections/worm-castings/products/worm-castings

nice! decently close to me.
ill have to give them a try. always on the hunt for quality castings, cheap, and local. Thanks man

 

[Team Microbe]

This thread, info from BaS, CC and MicrobeMan have all blown my mind to little pieces. I am now taking the first steps into a 5 year duration experiment, to carefully measure the effects of these combined methods on soil. Methods will include microbe counts with a compound microscope and hemacytometer, measured lux levels in lights through all growth phases, comprehensive climate control, and a visual analysis of mineral breakdown via regular intervals of examining mineral layers of centrifuged soil samples (enough centrifugal force will cause different minerals of different densities to separate out, sorted by weight and mass. To that end, it's relatively easy to separate soil components back 'out' of the mix and visually compare them to past samples to get an eye on plant consumption rates of different soil additions with respect to cannabis and bioregional variables). Additionally, I will be sending off samples for yearly soil analysis to establish a rate of breakdown in my given system. My dream is to see permaculture become a science sans the politics, and so I want to deliver some actual data.


Some changes I plan to make to the general method:

- As coconut endosperm contains a very high amount of phytohormones (moreso than coconut water), I plan to add coconut flour to my soil recipe, at a rate of 1/4 cup per cubic foot in addition to coconut water to my AACT.

- Instead of adding all soil at once and leaving alone for a month after water, I apprehensively plan to build what I call a "7 Year Soil". My 20 gallon container will get 2.5 gallons of soil, and a layer of cover crop. After a week, that crop gets chopped and buried with another 2.55 gallons of soil, and more seeds sprouted. This continue for 2 months, until we have 7 total layers of growth, which gets chopped, capped with EWC and then mulched with hay to sit for a solid week in the dark to think about what it did before turning the lights back on to incubate for 1 more month. From that point forward, I treat it with the usual regime.
As the saying goes, the initial soil should get the most attention, so I want to add something I've been seeing missing from so many of these tutorials: Green manure. That is, fresh, still-living green matter to bury and decompose before uv and oxidation effects begin to take hold. I'm calling it a 'seven year soil', because you're effectively condensing 7 years of cover cropping and topdressing into a 2 month contract. My aim is to get to the mythical 'eventually all you'll need is water' period I hear others talking about sooner. What I see really missing from that mechanic to get to that final stage is green manure and microbial diversity.

- Instead of adding aloe juice to my AACT, I'll add pureed aloe, and 1/2 crushed aspirin for a salicylic acid boost (aspirin isn't exactly 100% organic, but it's not going away anytime soon and is dirt cheap).

- Finally, my AACT will begin with a microbial starter. I'll combine EWC, Barley Malt Flour (1:30), water (1:300) and set it out underneath a fruit tree overnight (ideal ground for collecting wild yeasts in the air and other exotic bugs). The idea here is to make a 'sponge' starter, like one makes a sponge starter for making bread, for the same reasons. Have higher initial microbial counts to reduce overall stress in the rapid environmental changes the mirobes will be privy to, and allow the cells to divide and increase sooner than other methods. At least that's my logic behind it.


My years of reading Geoff Lawton have taught me that permaculturists should measure their time in units of 5, 10 and 15 years rather than individual seasons and years, to keep a constant eye on the consequences of their investment. To that end, putting in 3 extra months of time to prep for a bigger ROI seems like cake to me.

I begin mixing soil and charging biochar tonight! Cheers

Man, I would absolutely love to tag along as this project takes place. What an interesting experiment. It sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders GHGrower, this would be some rock solid data to introduce to the organic community too.

The 7 year soil sounds like a cool idea as well, do you worry at all about the shortened time of the cycles though? I'd imagine that the 7th layer would be decomposing almost at the same time as the first would (of course the 1st would further along in the process). Well I guess that's what an experiment is all about actually, trying new things and recording results!

The only thing that I didn't think was killer about this experiment was the addition of aspirin to what could potentially be a flawless project... all I ask is - why? The aloe puree would provide more than enough S.A. for that to be worth adding I think. I just don't see the significance of taking an all-organic regimen and tarnishing with synthetic aspirin. I've heard of many growers using this, and every time I just shake my head because I grow organically for a reason, and choose ingest pills for a reason. You should consider removing that from the plan my man. I love everything else, you should really consider on making a thread to document this entire process

Btw I love the 5 year outlook on no-till you mention here, it's such a great way to look at things. I too am building soil at the moment (gathering supplies, not mixing as of yet) and I was going to take a short cut with the additives to get it up and goin sooner... but when you put it like that it makes me want to really take my time and make sure everything is just right, since this will be lasting me for years to come. Now I think I'm gonna hold off until I have the money for premium compost and some worms to add to the mix like I originally planned on.

I just ordered some bio char myself actually! My mix is 200 gallons worth, so I'm gonna add between 5%-10% bio char (16 gallons) to the mix like BAS recommends. I ordered the pre-charged stuff for a few more bucks, but I can imagine charging it isn't too complicated of a process, am I right?

Question: My mix is 1 part peat moss, 1 part aeration (rice hulls/lava rock), and 1 part compost. What would I be substituting the 5%-10% bio char for in this mix? The compost?

Hey TM, just wanted to thank you for this and your last no-till thread. Its helped me so so much. Its a nice concentrated version of the other more dense threads, and really helped me to breakdown and understand the no-till process. grow on brother!!

No problem bro! I was very pleased with that run... I'm debating on re-opening that thread for my 2nd run in the bigger pots. Maybe I'll just start a new one... idk. What do you think? I know this one was started a little early so I'm gonna trash it once things get goin again. I just hate those 100 page threads where the reader has to spend days trying to find what they're looking for. I think 20-30 pages is the longest a thread should be (for the most part)

nice! decently close to me.
ill have to give them a try. always on the hunt for quality castings, cheap, and local. Thanks man

Beautiful! Np

 

[GHGrower]

Man, I would absolutely love to tag along as this project takes place. What an interesting experiment. It sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders GHGrower, this would be some rock solid data to introduce to the organic community too.

WOW! Thanks! From you, that means so much to me.

I hope that this process can get all the empiricism it deserves. I'm a hobby scientist, but have a pretty long-winded tinkering background in Zymology and Microbiology.

The 7 year soil sounds like a cool idea as well, do you worry at all about the shortened time of the cycles though? I'd imagine that the 7th layer would be decomposing almost at the same time as the first would (of course the 1st would further along in the process). Well I guess that's what an experiment is all about actually, trying new things and recording results!

In my experience from being an outdoor vegetable gardener, my typical process after harvest in my raised beds is to chop down all inedible plant matter into chunks no bigger than 1 inch, bury the lot under a 2 inch layer of compost and plant a cover crop on top. The crop will start growing through early fall, stunt and partially die off over winter, and then continue growing around this time of year. I then mow it down, add a mulch of straw or burlap (burlap ROCKS, it breathes well, gives universal coverage, and can still smother plants and allow water to flow through it easily when sufficiently moist) on top and walk away for a month before setting down my seedlings around mid to late April. After 30 days, all I see under the mulch is bare soil and no exothermic heat. To that end, I feel that giving the final layer it's 30 days of due dilligence will offset any problems associated with active decomposition in the soil. The lower layers could possibly go anerobic, but that just means carbon released slowly over time. That's a win in my book!

My assumption is that the 30 day 'incubation' piece of stoner science I sometimes see (I'm looking at you, supersoil) stems from this practice. I don't know if everyone else does it, but it's what my family has done for a few generations now. A week in darkness will choke out any stragglers that try to break the surface (In my garden, I usually lay burlap on top of everything).

The only thing that I didn't think was killer about this experiment was the addition of aspirin to what could potentially be a flawless project...

Simply put, there hasn't been an empirical study that compares the two treatment methods. I admit that I'm not really a scientist. Although I'm science minded, I don't have a complete picture of all of the resources and information behind something. As a result, if I don't understand something, I look it up. What I found on Aloe was extremely conflicting, especially in regards to Saponin and Salicylic Acid and it's applications.

Although Salicylic acid is extremely beneficial to plants, this study, conducted over a wider variety of plants than barley, implies through it's described methods that the passive amounts of salicylic acid in aloe vera is insufficient to affect mineral uptake in plants, but in sufficient amounts, it will strongly affect a plant's ability to efficaciously intake trace metals from the soil. I'm not looking at the compounds direct effect on the plants, but what it does to the soil. Being an early planter, not a whole lot of those minerals will be chelated and bioavailable right away, so perhaps there is some benefit to be had from it. Subsequent years in different planters done with and without this application will reveal some interesting findings, I think.

I have other feelings about Aloe, but they're uneducated ones. Rather than assume, I'll simply ask: What happens to Saponin once it is in the soil? Through what mechanisms does it affect plants? Being a bitterant and a paralytic to fish and mammals (Campbell, 1999), what are the consequences of smoking trace amounts of saponin? Knowing the answers to this question will dispel my own personal reservations regarding the use of aloe.

Btw I love the 5 year outlook on no-till you mention here, it's such a great way to look at things.

If you haven't had a chance, watch the films Geoff Lawton makes to showcase agroforestry food forests in all stages of development from the 1 year mark to the 30 year mark. That series has taught me so much about the relationships between plants and the architecture of forests that I completely changed my approach to gardening as a result. Effectively by the permaculture definition, this single process we're focusing on is only in zone one in our little bioregions, and there's an entire world of information to cover the rest, most of which seems to fall squarely in this same boat. I'm not too keen on his "workshops" (You pay him 8 grand to work on his farm for no pay for a full season), but the video series was a real eye opener for me.

I too am building soil at the moment (gathering supplies, not mixing as of yet)

This is honestly without a doubt my favorite part of the season.

I just ordered some bio char myself actually! My mix is 200 gallons worth, so I'm gonna add between 5%-10% bio char (16 gallons) to the mix like BAS recommends. I ordered the pre-charged stuff for a few more bucks, but I can imagine charging it isn't too complicated of a process, am I right?

Biochar is simply charcoal. Charcoal is simply a carbon scaffolding that is great at holding water. I don't see the process any more complicated than adding a volume to a simple fully prepared EWC and .25% kelp meal AACT, and waiting for the crackling of the carbon to subside. We're banking microbes, and not much else.
Question: My mix is 1 part peat moss, 1 part aeration (rice hulls/lava rock), and 1 part compost. What would I be substituting the 5%-10% bio char for in this mix? The compost?
Biochar is effectively a very stiff sponge that is very good at holding water. I initially figured it would go into the aeration mix, but my limited understanding of biochar implies that it retains water, rather than air. To that end, I plan to use it to replace 10% of my peat moss.
My recipe for compost is 50% EWC, 45% compost and 5% forest humus (A fallen tree at an arboretum I've been eyeballing for the last 6 years finally caved in this last winter, so I want in on that bug country). My aerators will be an equal mix of lava rock and rice hulls, and my Retainer will be 90% sphagnum and 10% biochar.
Cheers!

 

[ghostmade]

^^^plant willow trees=free aspirin for life

 

[Granger2]

GH, I've been thinking about this myself, and had decided to use Biochar in place of Peat because of water holding. I plan to use the small Lava rock that BAS sells half and half with Perlite for aeration.

For no till I don't want to use Rice Hulls since it breaks down. Good luck. -granger

 

[Kozmo]

^ But it makes good worm food.

By the way. If you would be so kind to check out post #165. I think it got skipped.

 

[Team Microbe]

Hey all, I'd like to re-start this thread since it's finally game time over here. I apologize for the pre-jack on this one!


Come continue this discussion over at -


Team Microbe's Living Soil Laboratory - Round 2

See you on the other side

 

[rik78]

too many threads...

just sticky to one, your one.... easy.

you make us all follow you over three different threads...

 

[Team Microbe]

I like to make them under 50 pages each for easier referencing brother, forgive me but I can't bring myself to take the time to search through those 200 pagers like the recycled soil thread on here - it's just a headache. I shouldn't have started this thread here so early, forgive me! 1 thread per cycle for now on...

 

[Kozmo]

Rice hulls

Rice hulls

GH, I've been thinking about this myself, and had decided to use Biochar in place of Peat because of water holding. I plan to use the small Lava rock that BAS sells half and half with Perlite for aeration.

For no till I don't want to use Rice Hulls since it breaks down. Good luck. -granger

Ain't much but it's a something.......


Ecological Engineering
Volume 41, April 2012

Biotransformation Of Rice Husk Into Organic Fertilizer Through Vermicomposting

Chemical Engineering Discipline
School of Engineering & School of Science
Monash University
Malaysia

Abstract

Rice husk (RH) is an abundant agricultural solid waste as a result of rice-milling process. The present study investigated the potential of converting RH amended with market refused fruit (market refused Banana (B), Honeydew (H) or Papaya (P)) into vermicompost using Eudrilus eugeniae (aka African Nightcrawlers).

RH was mixed with market refused fruit in an equal ratio to produce three different treatments (1B:1RH, 1H:1RH and 1P:1RH) for laboratory screening of solid wastes. Generally, the application of E. eugeniae permitted an increase in the final vermicompost after 9 weeks of vermicomposting.

Calcium (6.9 – 99.0%)
Potassium (15.0 – 121.4%)
Phosphorus (2.4 – 49.5%)
Carbon (6.5 – 69.0%)

However, decreases in Magnesium (3.7 – 45.7%) and Nitrogen (6.9 – 23.7%) were also observed in final vermicomposts.

Among all the RH treatments, RH which was mixed with market refused Papaya (1P:1RH) showed better quality vermicompost with higher nutritional status.

It was also found that RH which was amended by market refused fruit (1B:1RH, 1H:1RH or 1P:1RH), especially market refused Papaya, encouraged the growth of earthworm as compared to the treatment with RH alone.

The present data reveal that vermicomposting is a feasible technology for bio-transforming RH into value-added material, namely vermicompost.

From CC

Also without the worms they may not break down as fast as you might think. Turns out they have a protective layer on them.

 

[Team Microbe]

Hey all, I'd like to re-start this thread since it's finally game time over here. I apologize for the pre-jack on this one!


Come continue this discussion over at -


Team Microbe's Living Soil Laboratory - Round 2

See you on the other side