TAG - Landing (Resource for True Aero Growing)

[00420]

hey guys...... i was reading sum of the nute's on AN"s page n this one says for hydro & aero right on the bottle....all the rest say for hydro or soil........

http://www.advancednutrients.com/product_label_pdfs/SN_UltimateSuperBoost_label.jpg

 

[Guest]

My crew is tight, tighter than family.

My crew is tight, tighter than family.

You all have just made my day. Thanks for being such awesome friends. You all are more fuckin' supportive than my own family. I shit you not!

But I agree, maybe some serious thrashing with a 3 foot stalk of fish bones would help some people get it through their thick heads, not always.

My Crew is tight.

You'd think people would get that as we traveled here together.

Anyhow...getting my groove back up and running. I'm actually on day 53 officially. I'm gonna let them run until next week and on Monday I'm gonna cut the lights for 2 days and run straight water while I'm out of town.

When I get back I'll harvest all but the lagging Sats. I might move them into a floro chamber for the trip. (I'm out for about 2 days to look at the farm). :wink:

I do have some info on gas exchange and CO2...it goes as follows:

In order to carry on photosynthesis, green plants need a supply of carbon dioxide and a means of disposing of oxygen. In order to carry on cellular respiration, plant cells need oxygen and a means of disposing of carbon dioxide (just as animal cells do).

Unlike animals, plants have no specialized organs for gas exchange (with the few inevitable exceptions!). There are several reasons they can get along without them:
Each part of the plant takes care of its own gas exchange needs. Although plants have an elaborate liquid transport system, it does not participate in gas transport.
Roots, stems, and leaves respire at rates much lower than are characteristic of animals. Only during photosynthesis are large volumes of gases exchanged and each leaf is well adapted to take care of its own needs.
The distance that gases must diffuse in even a large plant is not great. Each living cell in the plant is located close to the surface. While obvious for leaves, it is also true for stems. The only living cells in the stem are organized in thin layers just beneath the bark. The cells in the interior are dead and serve only to provide mechanical support.
Most of the living cells in a plant have at least part of their surface exposed to air. The loose packing of parenchyma cells in leaves, stems, and roots provides an interconnecting system of air spaces. Gases diffuse through air several thousand times faster than through water. Once oxygen and carbon dioxide reach the network of intercellular air spaces (arrows), they diffuse rapidly through them.

Oxygen and carbon dioxide also pass through the cell wall and plasma membrane of the cell by diffusion. The diffusion of carbon dioxide may be aided by aquaporin channels inserted in the plasma membrane.

Leaves

The exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the leaf (as well as the loss of water vapor in transpiration) occurs through pores called stomata (singular = stoma).

Normally stomata open when the light strikes the leaf in the morning and close during the night.
The immediate cause is a change in the turgor of the guard cells. The inner wall of each guard cell is thick and elastic. When turgor develops within the two guard cells flanking each stoma, the thin outer walls bulge out and force the inner walls into a crescent shape. This opens the stoma. When the guard cells lose turgor, the elastic inner walls regain their original shape and the stoma closes.

Time Osmotic Pressure, lb/in2
7 A.M. 212
11 A.M. 456
5 P.M. 272
12 midnight 191

The table shows the osmotic pressure measured at different times of day in typical guard cells. The osmotic pressure within the other cells of the lower epidermis remained constant at 150 lb/in2. When the osmotic pressure of the guard cells became greater than that of the surrounding cells, the stomata opened. In the evening, when the osmotic pressure of the guard cells dropped to nearly that of the surrounding cells, the stomata closed.

Opening stomata

The increase in osmotic pressure in the guard cells is caused by an uptake of potassium ions (K+). The concentration of K+ in open guard cells far exceeds that in the surrounding cells. This is how it accumulates:
Blue light is absorbed by phototropin which activates
a proton pump (an H+-ATPase) in the plasma membrane of the guard cell.
ATP, generated by the light reactions of photosynthesis, drives the pump.
As protons (H+) are pumped out of the cell, its interior becomes increasingly negative.
This attracts additional potassium ions into the cell, raising its osmotic pressure.
Closing stomata

Although open stomata are essential for photosynthesis, they also expose the plant to the risk of losing water through transpiration. Some 90% of the water taken up by a plant is lost in transpiration.

Abscisic acid (ABA) is the hormone that triggers closing of the stomata when soil water is insufficient to keep up with transpiration (which often occurs around mid-day).

The mechanism:
ABA binds to receptors at the surface of the plasma membrane of the guard cells.
The receptors activate several interconecting pathways which converge to produce a rise in pH in the cytosol transfer of Ca2+ from the vacuole to the cytosol. The increased Ca2+ in the cytosol blocks the uptake of K+ into the guard cell while the increased pH stimulates the loss of Cl- and organic ions (e.g., malate2-) from the cell.
The loss of these solutes in the cytosol reduces the osmotic pressure of the cell and thus turgor. The stomata close.

Density of stomata

The density of stomata on a leaf varies with such factors as:
the temperature, humidity, and light intensity around the plant;
and also, as it turns out, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the air around the leaves. The relationship is inverse; that is, as CO2 goes up, the number of stomata goes down, and vice versa. Some evidence:
Plants grown in an artificial atmosphere with a high level of CO2 have fewer stomata than normal.
Herbarium specimens reveal that the number of stomata in a given species has been declining over the last 200 years — the time of the industrial revolution and rising levels of CO2 in the atmosphere [View].
These data can be quantified by determining the stomatal index: the ratio of the number of stomata in a given area divided by the total number of stomata and other epidermal cells in that same area.

How does the plant determine how many stomata to produce?

It turns out that the mature leaves on the plant detect the conditions around them and send a signal (its nature still unknown) that adjusts the number of stomata that will form on the developing leaves.

Two experiments (reported by Lake et al., in Nature, 411:154, 10 May 2001):

When the mature leaves of the plant (Arabidopsis) are encased in glass tubes filled with high levels (720 ppm) of CO2, the developing leaves have fewer stomata than normal even though they are growing in normal air (360 ppm).
Conversely, when the mature leaves are given normal air (360 ppm CO2) while the shoot is exposed to high CO2 (720 ppm), the new leaves develop with the normal stomatal index.

Roots and Stems

Woody stems and mature roots are sheathed in layers of dead cork cells impregnated with suberin — a waxy, waterproof (and airproof) substance. So cork is as impervious to oxygen and carbon dioxide as it is to water.

However, the cork of both mature roots and woody stems is perforated by nonsuberized pores called lenticels. These enable oxygen to reach the intercellular spaces of the interior tissues and carbon dioxide to be released to the atmosphere.

In many annual plants, the stems are green and almost as important for photosynthesis as the leaves. These stems use stomata rather than lenticels for gas exchange.

This all left me to belive that CO2 supplementation is only necessary under high temps and wasn't really worth the investment. But everyone can draw their own conclusions.


PS - Not to pick any fights, but if someone threw shit like this down at me then I could accept being verbally assaulted, but as that never happens it is just trolling. Science never lies.

 

[00420]

heres some good info on co2.....

15 on 15 off is just stuped to me.

the amount of time would depind, on flow rate & the size of the room. also what ppm you would want........ 1000,1500.

http://www.greenair.com/emitter.htm

 

[00420]

This all left me to belive that CO2 supplementation is only necessary under high temps and wasn't really worth the investment. But everyone can draw their own conclusions.

this is not the first time i have hurd this.............

 

[Guest]

Thanks for that info Pod. It makes sense to suppliment c02 if ventilation is inadequate and plants need more than what's available (GroNut stating the obvious ). Larger grows packed wall-to-wall in a room might see this. But to use it as a type of supercharger to get faster, bigger growth from a plant that otherwise would have a constant supply of fresh air is the question I guess (and my situation). Interesting resluts on the reduced number of stomata produced on the leaves incased in the higer levels of c02.

00420, what has been your experience with it? Have you done any side by side tests or anything to see if it's given you much benefit?

 

[00420]

not enuff to say gronut go buy it now, you need it......


lol

i have ran it one time N that was with a new system so no real good comparson...

im just now starting to play with it....

 

[Guest]

The reason I didn't comment initially was because I've only experimented with sub-aquatic CO2 delivery. I did see increased growth, but that was in a DWC environment and I wouldn't say it was any faster or better than a perfectly tuned TAE.

It is my belief that TAE encompasses the surface environment as well. I can't say the plants wouldn't benefit from higher levels of available carbon, but I don't think it is necessarily CO2 derived. Carbonic Acid is the key factor here and you can supply additional carbon via your nutrient solution, so it really doesn't appear to warrant an expensive CO2 rig for anything that isn't 'warehouse' size.

Like the tests bore out; the plants will balance their own environment (as I keep stressing) so if there is lots of CO2 the plant will just produce less Stomata just as when there are adequate levels of O2 available, and absorption to, the roots they don't grow extensively either.

The plants, if your desire is to create monster plants, would be to trick the plants by first setting them up to grow in a veg environment that is very low in CO2 and low in lighting that would force the plant to produce more Stomata. (Floro vegging)

Then, once into flower and the stretch has finished push the CO2 levels up really high and increase your temps and lighting. You would also need to use a hormone as a foliar application directly before the lights went on. It would force the stoma to stay open, however you'd have to compensate for the loss of transpired water.

AeRoGaNiC and I worked on a fogger delivery system for TAG to increase CO2 production, but lost interest as the yields I got with WonderTwins is far more than I could expect, I think the entire effort is really too much of a hassle for results I've still yet to see in any grow.

If they were like TAG results...visible and apparent I'd say hell ya, but as the use of CO2 injection only seems to be necessary in confined non-vented areas...I think just adequate ventilation and some Doc's Carbon products would work just as well, if not better as the plants could absorb carbon 24/7 without the need of the stoma or guard-cell manipulation.

Doc's Carbon Products

Otherwise its too much like trying to feed a baby mashed carrots...they are only going to eat what they are going to eat—best bet, just provide the most ideal environment over anything 'supercharged'.

Perfect TAE = Perfect Plants. That's enough for me. Increased CO2 is an unnatural addition to a very complex equation. Its hard enough just keeping the P/K up ....I can't be worrying about CO2 levels and venting too... lol

Unless I see some hard evidence to convince me otherwise.

But by all means, experiment and have fun...this is only my opinion on the topic. I'd love to watch someone 'nitro' their pod. If it worked... but I'm not holding my breath—literally.

 

[Swimmer]

Swimmer show us your roots, I would love to see them. And how bout that rainforest system you said you run, don't think they could support those trees you showed a few post ago. I see a lot of inconsistencies in you fantasy’s opps I mean stories, keep them strait because I am getting confused. And lastly you say Aero is ALL about DO then why would the roots stop growing because of contact to air, wouldn't that make more O2 available. The only retarded growth around here is my own because I am waiting on seedlings to mature. JAT, Grownut, & PR are all running a systems that are built on the same principles so how would one retard with out the others following. Any reasons for a stunt in growth are usually explained by power failures, equipment failures, or maybe a hurricane (guy makes it trough a hurricane but keeps his Canna alive and you give him shit about stunted growth). End Rant.

Why is it that if I post my opinions I take a personal attack? Fact is that I have many types of grows. The Rainforrest is currently being used for clones at this time. The trees are being grown in aero buckets with an added feature that I will reveal in a later thread.

Aero is ALL about DO then why would the roots stop growing because of contact to air, wouldn't that make more O2 available.

lol Are you serious?

Equipment failures or not at 40 days into flower (before the hurricane) those plants looked about the same.

I am 100% sure that he is under-watering and that root pruning is evident. If you disagree then what is your explanation for the poor condition/stunted growth of those plants?

btw. What is this facination with roots at the expense of the end that counts?

 

[guineapig]

some people just take plant perfection to a higher level and this includes the cultivation of enormous, aesthetically pleasing puff-ball root structures.....i call them "rhizophiles" and i am definately one of them......i thoroughly enjoy viewing puffball roots just as much as huge frosty colas if not more because a truly beautiful root-structure is very hard to find.....but GroNut and JAT and POD and Tag-Monk have all provided these phenomenal pics all for the benefit of the IC community and expect nothing in return......

So thank you all TAG growers for having the courage to experiment and push the envelope of Aero-Canna knowledge......thank you thank you thank you....

"Roots.....it's all in the roots" -to quote dr. D

-kind regards and positivity, GP

 

[Swimmer]

I agree that aero produces excellent roots, and I love to look at them as well, but then other methods can also. I'm sure that some of the most beautiful roots ever grown are hidden inside coco or other media. The difference with aero is that you can see them.

I am 100% sure that he is under-watering and that root pruning is evident. If you disagree then what is your explanation for the poor condition/stunted growth of those plants?

Anyone???

 

[TAG-monk]

GP, dont know if u have been sarkastic, but i havent post any pic now. lol but that will change in max 1 month i hope,.. if i can get some seeds ><

 

[JustATry]

Swimmer - I don't really understand where you are going with this. Of course the plants are going to be smaller. Most were indica's that had zero veg. If you look at my pics, table #2 was also zero veg. So am I experiencing "air pruning" and "stunted growth" as well?!?! Of course not! If the plants do not carry a substantial root structure going into flowering, being indica's, they don't work out too well in a TAE. This was a first indica run for us both, and we know this now. I can post similar root and plant pictures which I can guarantee there is no underwatering going on. If you don't believe me, look at table #1. Exact same enviorment. The difference is about 10 days of veg time. It's the veg time that is the key with these indica's.

Secondly, did you not read my above post stating the hurricane??!?!

What is your beef, seriously? You wonder why people jump down your throat all the time? It's because you come in hear rambling, from what I have read you have not done an aeroponic grow, and have no evidence to backup your "theories". Post some pics for comparison, post some links, backup your "theories". What's with the attacks on PR's garden all the time? Attack mine now! We are running the exact same strains, foggers, and nutes. If his garden has so many problems mine must be far worse because I have 4x the plant numbers, right?

 

[guineapig]

oops sorry TAG-monk!! Duffman Screwed Up!!! (duffman voice off)

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

.....Yes.....a marvellous and very interesting thread we have here........it's a shame to see it sullied by angry confrontations.......If we can keep on-topic and respect that we all have our own opinions within the debate then I can see it progressing in a positive vein.......

...please refrain from thrashing each other verbally...........because it quite obviously detracts from what we can learn here......

 

[Swimmer]

JustATry,

It is obvious that your garden is doing very well so I doubt that you are doing the "exact same thing". What bothers me is when PR pontificates his half baked theories which he weakly tries to correlate to that scraggly half burnt group of plants. He is a beginner grower who acts as if he wrote the book on marijuana, and worse, he can't take advice. PR can put me on his "ignore" list at any time if he likes, but I have read back in this thread and found that others have also been treated the same.
Thank you for the advice Gypsy Im am only trying to help. I don't have "theories" but I can tell you what works. Po Racer: Your plants are underwatered.

 

[Guest]

Gypsy Nirvana: ...please refrain from thrashing each other verbally...........because it quite obviously detracts from what we can learn here......

And the very next post:

Swimmer: What bothers me is when PR pontificates his half baked theories which he weakly tries to correlate to that scraggly half burnt group of plants. He is a beginner grower who acts as if he wrote the book on marijuana, and worse, he can't take advice.

This is not the first time this warning has been given. Swimmer treated Dutchgrown's warning the exact same way one week ago..

Although there is no problem in expressing a difference of opinion, it's the manner
in which a member goes about doing so that separates between a different point
of view, reasonably stated in a civil discussion....versus a personal attack and flaming.

Swimmer, we don't tolerate flaming on this site...read forum guidelines #4.

dg

 

[Guest]

No worries M8s I've got all assholes on Ignore, so I'm just gonna fly blindly by them for now. Shit don't stick to a master.

We've given Swimmer enough attention for one life time, (thinly veiled theory here) but if we just ignore him like a stunted sprout he'll die off. Don't give him any Energy or Food and he'll die off. So, we'll have to starve the weeds out of our garden by neglecting them I suppose.

Swimmer, let's just concede that I wont ever take your advice nor will you have any impact on my choice or style of growing. Then, maybe you can move on to hassle someone else in the Soil arena? There isn't anything you can share that I have even the remotest interest in even reading, so you can stop flaming in my direction as I'm not reading nor am I responding to your flames anymore.

We've discussed your need for attention and lack of any administrative action, at this point you are just the spoiled child of the Boss. We'll just wait to catch you after school, away from safety.

But in the meantime, no one will see it coming. :wink:

 

[Guest]

Swimmer,
Start your own thread with your own theories backed with some experimentation and results. Stop dissing and walking all over these guys' thread. They've OBVIOUSLY put more time behind it. So learn to read, make your own assumptions, and DO YOUR OWN DAMN THANG ! !
I freaking hate when people do this kind of shit.
Take it to OG, flamewarrior.

 

[Dutchgrown]

Everyone in this thread is here as a guest of this site...either respect the policies of our site, or you will find yourself on the outside looking in. Sounds like a bunch of children in this thread instead of knowledgeable growers.

POD, I'm glad you think of yourself as a 'master' but quite frankly this condescending attitude of yours is what keeps the negativity rolling here. As for Swimmer....he has a right to voice his 'opinion'...for that is where a discussion is brought about, and we ARE here to discuss and learn and teach and take advice and give advice and hopefully do so in a civilized manner. But Swimmer, nor anyone else should be making personal flames, which seem to run prevalent in this thread. POD this is a very lengthy thread which you have put alot of effort into, but continually striking back at someone's difference of opinion is not going to do anything but keep things stirred up. Why don't you just address these differences of opinion in an enlightening manner rather than with a defensive and condescending attitude. I have relayed MANY TIMES already to you via PM on how best to proceed, but you just don't take advice well...it's clearly demonstrated here.

This is the LAST visit I make to this thread in an Admin capacity, if this thread does not stay on topic and everyone conduct questions and answers and discuss differences of opinions in a CIVILIZED manner then Admin will have no choice but to close this thread....and that would be a shame as there is alot of good info here.

dg

 

[Guest]

I'm sorry Dutchgrown, but I don't share your view of this situation at all. Firstly, whether or not I claim to be a 'master' or not supports no excuse for personal attacks. Secondly, I haven't struck back at anyone because of a difference of opinion, only personal insult. If there was an actual point to Swimmer's exhaustive (and I might add like 4th attack) and you have done nothing but threaten to ban me from IC because I use the word 'black people' is a little ridiculous in my opinion...which apparently is the only one being censored here?

I speak of an objective reality that everyone can see exists in an effort to learn and I'm told I'll be banned and my posts censored, yet Swimmer continues to flame me for basically the entirety of his career here at IC...um...count the posts there Admin Master....

Why don't you try less condescending attitude yourself and just measure the contributions to date. You show me a Master of TAG or Any AERO to follow - I'll follow, but to date... R2G/PR is the Goto guy for TAG. What does that make me? Apprentice? Do I have to kiss ass to be respected? I think not. Would it help? Don't care. I didn't come here to compensate for your ineffectiveness as an administrator on this site, I came to share knowledge and information with the people that do respect me for my work and contributions to Aero. As you can't show me better roots or nicer buds either...(bold statement I know...oh god) I'm inclinded to think I can claim whatever the hell I want given I (and my crew) are the only ones with proof of my 'mastery' of aero. If you got a another, like I said, bring him.

I want an honest fight. Enough childish lecturing and name calling, put your money where your mouths are. You bust my best ever, I'll bow to you. Otherwise... well...you get the picture. :wink:

Now see, this post will be censored or warrant action....odd, eh?

PS - And Dutchgrown, don't bother PMing me with another excuse why your buddy Swimmer here gets off the hook but I'm the dick that starts it. I'm tired of dealing with both of you, let an effective administrator visit the thread that can actually uphold your site policies, obviously you are NOT the One.

Holly shit I can't believe I actually got to use that icon...