Strange Slime buildup on roots

[richyrich]

good luck bro! i hope everything works out for you. just from reading your whole thread i know you pretty much dedicated your life trying to figured out this herpes. LOL i had problems with pythium but ever since i used root excelurator, voodoo juice, and piranha my shit is exploding with massive root mass. i'll try to post some pics for you. again good luck bro and i'll be following your grow. thanks for introducing physan20 that shit gets my equipment squeaky clean.

Thanks, but this was not a thread I started. I searched a lot and this old thread that I came across was the only one that had anything to do with this problem. I kinda went with it from there and brought it back to life. The fellas in the beginning of this thread are the ones who knew about the Physan20.

It amazed me that so many folks were plagued by this problem. Everyone used to tell me it was just root rot. I read a lot and from what I could find I named this problem as to what it was BROWN SLIME ALGAE. Far from root rot. And that name is a misnomer because we are actually battling a bacteria. I posted plenty on it earlier.

I had been wanting to try hydro again and battling the slime with beneficial bacteria colonies in the rez. The folks a few posts up have started and good for them. I was, also, thinking a protein skimmer would work. All that is is the filter and pump that runs in a fish aquarium. The sponge in it harbors the beneficial bacteria in the fish aquarium. It was surprising because I didn't find out what this problem was until I started reading heavily about fish aquariums. Makes sense benes and protein skimmer could work.

For now I really wanted to try the UV Reservoir Light made by Sunleaves that a person shared in a recent post. I bought it and we will all see what happens.

 

[D.I.trY]

Im dissapointed to see people still focussing on sterilization as the answer. I know from ponds that these UV lights only kill what is pumped into it - in other words what is suspended in the water. In ponds you can kill all the single cell algae that causes pea soup using a UV bulb, but you cant do anything about string algae that grow on surfaces in the pond.

Its not going to kill what is growing around your roots and on the side of your res. BB have so many other benefits make the roots function better than without - of that im sure. All you need is some filter matting and a starter, as far as im aware hydroguard has no bacteria in it, only enzymes - so thats useless. If you cant find a hydro starter use a pond filter starter. Pond filter matting is ideal. No electricity, no replacing bulbs, cheaper and more effective.

 

[ItsGrowTime]

Just to clear it up, Hydroguard (now called AquaShield) is a beneficial bacteria supplement. Hygrozyme is the enzyme supplement.

 

[richyrich]

Im dissapointed to see people still focussing on sterilization as the answer. I know from ponds that these UV lights only kill what is pumped into it - in other words what is suspended in the water. In ponds you can kill all the single cell algae that causes pea soup using a UV bulb, but you cant do anything about string algae that grow on surfaces in the pond.

Its not going to kill what is growing around your roots and on the side of your res. BB have so many other benefits make the roots function better than without - of that im sure. All you need is some filter matting and a starter, as far as im aware hydroguard has no bacteria in it, only enzymes - so thats useless. If you cant find a hydro starter use a pond filter starter. Pond filter matting is ideal. No electricity, no replacing bulbs, cheaper and more effective.

If you 'walked in my shoes' through this battle with this bacteria (brown slime algae), you would be a lot more disappointed with it than your thoughts on sterilization.

Its true the UV light will kill anything in the reservoir. And that is where the breeding takes place, so the point is to keep it from even starting. Just in case it does get a foot hold outside of the reservoir than I will try to fend it off with Super Oxy until this experiment is over. Yes, and I repeat this grow is just an experiment. If it doesn't work than I am going to experiment next with a reservoir seeded with beneficial bacteria before I introduce any plants to the system. I posted plenty on this plan several posts ago.

Keep you all updated.

 

[D.I.trY]

Its true the UV light will kill anything in the reservoir. And that is where the breeding takes place, so the point is to keep it from even starting. Just in case it does get a foot hold outside of the reservoir than I will try to fend it off with Super Oxy
Keep you all updated.

Sorry but this is not true. The UV light will kill any micro organism that it can shine the UV onto. It will do absolutely nothing to kill a colony of slime anywhere else. The good news is it will stop the slime from colonising the inside of your UV filter - yippee.

Its great that you will do it as an experiment to show us the results and id love to be proved wrong but since you say you suffer particularly badly from this problem, I wouldn't bother.

Ill give you another example of how the UV filter used to work in my pond ( I stopped using it because a good BB colony makes it redundant). I have a huge thriving colony of BB in a gravity fed filter. Its almost 200L of filter media from which water is pumped to a UV filter to kill the pea soup algae before going back into the pond. The UV could have been installed on the filter inlet instead and the colony would still be totaly unharmed. I NEVER added any bacterial starter to the filter. You provide the environment, and nature will respond. Some of this slime bacteria that makes its way from the air onto your roots, clones, airstone, whatever will still have the same environment to thrive. It grows on things, not in a suspended in water like single celled algae that make a pond look like pea soup. Sometimes youve spent money on a new piece of kit and you've got high hopes and you stubbornly decide against a better alternative - thats what i think is happenning here

Another thing, we know by now that H2o2 (which super oxy is) makes it worse! They thrive in an oxygen rich environment, it doesnt kill them and the roots will never thrive.

 

[10k]

Richyrich and D.I.Try...
I believe you're onto something regarding having a good beneficial bacteria colony in the water to void the slime. Back in the day when I did some Aquaponics grows, I never had any slime problems whatsoever and had some of the most beautiful white root systems I've ever seen.

In regular chem hydro setups, I've never believed in the "everything but the kitchen sink" nute coctail mixers either, and thought that was what's behind most folks slime gunky res problems. I've always believed in keeping things clean, simple and not polluted with every kind of damned snake oil the hydro shop wants to push on growers. But I've always ran aged aerated water so its ready when needed, and never strayed away from the old faithful GH flora series nutrients with little or no additives other than the occasional silicone additive (potassium silicate makes a great pH up btw) and the usual pH down phosphoric acid.

Now, I havent really given much thought to why I haven't had the dredded slime problems, but perhaps its because my water is well aged and aerated before I mix fresh nutes. Hmmmm ?

Why not set up a healthy thriving water barrel with beneficial bacteria and use that for nute mixing, reservoir topping off etc. ??????

Think about it ?
It's really not hard at all to get a good nitrogen cycle going in water. People who keep aquariums know never to put the expensive fish into a newly setup aquarium without having properly aged water, so that there is a living nitrogen cycle running in the tank before the fish are introduced, lest those expensive fish all die.

There are two main ways 'methods' to accomplish this beneficial bacteria or "Nitrogen cycle"...

Method #1...
Bubbling the water to de-gas the chlorine, then adding some sacrificial fish. The fish will add the ammonia in their excrement and urine. This ammonia will cause the nitro simmonas bacteria to show up, these bactors will consume the ammonia and convert it to Nitrites, which in turn will cause the nitro bactor bacteria to show up... they then consume the Nitrites and convert it to harmless nitrates. The nitrogen cycle is complete and the water is then a safe symbiosis for the fish. The fish feed the bacteria and the bacteria make the water non toxic for the fish. The only problem with this method of starting the aquarium is that Nitrites are toxic for the fish and some if not all the fish will die by the time the nitrogen cycle gets going properly. Fish keepers use cheap expendable goldfish for this method and when they can they'll also help the cycle get going sooner by innoculating the new tank with some aged used water from an already existing fish tank. Of course, always keep the water well aerated and the cycle will continue living and healthy.

Or Method #2,
Instead of sacrificing fish, the fish keeper simply fills the tank with fresh water, then adds common household ammonia. About a cup for a 29 gallon tank of water is plenty enough ammonia for the beneficial bacteria to show up in the system and get the nitrogen cycle process going. Just test the water with a Nitrite test kit and when you see the nitrites spike, its a good sign that the cycle is starting to take place....after a couple days test again and you'll see the nitrites drop...the nitrogen cycle is now established. Of course with either method good aeration must continue and you'll need to either add a teaspoon or two of ammonia every couple weeks or just throw in some goldfish to keep feeding the cycle. Fish don't need an aquarium just a good nitrogen cycle and a dash of fish food to thrive.
Hang a filter off the side of the water barrel and you've got yourself a perpetual "live" water supply.

Folks,
Any seasoned hydro grower with experience will already have a garbage can or other barrel or tub for their tap water to age and aerate in in order to "de-gas" the chlorine out of the water... to use for their res top offs and for mixing current and future nute solutions. Those that have large barrels bubbling away all the time probably already have some nitrogen cycle (although a weak one) going in the water already and don't realize it. I see no reason why one couldn't have two big garbage cans or tubs, one to de-gas new tap water in so you don't kill any BB's adding back fresh tap water to the barrel, and the second barrel to keep that nitrogen cycle thriving in so you never are adding chlorinated tap water to the "live" water barrel.

Use that second "live water" barrel for your plant waterings and nute mixes.

Discussion ??

 

[richyrich]

Its true the UV light will kill anything in the reservoir. And that is where the breeding takes place, so the point is to keep it from even starting. Just in case it does get a foot hold outside of the reservoir than I will try to fend it off with Super Oxy until this experiment is over. Yes, and I repeat this grow is just an experiment.

Sorry but this is not true. The UV light will kill any micro organism that it can shine the UV onto. It will do absolutely nothing to kill a colony of slime anywhere else. The good news is it will stop the slime from colonising the inside of your UV filter - yippee.

I know that to be killed by the UV the micro organism must be exposed to the light. That is a no brainer. Now what part about me saying that anything in the reservoir will be killed is not true? I realize that I have to get everything circulating in the rez through the UV sterilizer which is hopefully being done by the circulation pump I have running in the rez strictly for that reason.

I believe you can conclude that I know that it may grow outside of the reservoir from what I posted already. From my heavy experience it starts in the reservoir first.

 

[richyrich]

Sometimes youve spent money on a new piece of kit and you've got high hopes and you stubbornly decide against a better alternative - thats what i think is happenning here

Another thing, we know by now that H2o2 (which super oxy is) makes it worse! They thrive in an oxygen rich environment, it doesnt kill them and the roots will never thrive.

Well you can be disappointed again because I have not stubbornly decided against a better alternative. Have you not read through my posts? Have you not read about me talking about using beneficial bacteria. Go back pages in this thread. I know all about the alternative. A poster here shared the UV product that I had never seen before and I decided to try it--yippee. The reason... I would like to go back to hydro for it's ease. A UV light in the rez is a lot more easier than seeding a rez and taking care of benes the whole way through. It is no skin off my back to try this UV thing one time just to rule it out or I would always be wondering. I know you have experience with your ponds and there are some similarities but there is also a large difference in their environments. Where is your koi pond? Outside?

About Super Oxy H2O2. You know I am talking about 35% hydrogen peroxide, right? Dosed at the right amount in your rez that will not damage your roots will do no organism any good. It will kill them. Did you know 35% Hydrogen Peroxide is used world wide in municipal water supplies instead of chlorine to disinfect and stop the growth of unwanted organisms? If anything can make it past the Super Oxy then maybe you will be right. That is they will thrive if still alive as the Super Oxy breaks down as it soon does and the extra oxygen is then available.

Your very opinionated posts are welcome, but please be sure of what you are posting in this sticky beforehand such as hydroguard (agua shield) not having any beneficial bacteria in it. That is a very well known product.

 

[richyrich]

Richyrich and D.I.Try...
I believe you're onto something regarding having a good beneficial bacteria colony in the water to void the slime. Back in the day when I did some Aquaponics grows, I never had any slime problems whatsoever and had some of the most beautiful white root systems I've ever seen.

In regular chem hydro setups, I've never believed in the "everything but the kitchen sink" nute coctail mixers either, and thought that was what's behind most folks slime gunky res problems. I've always believed in keeping things clean, simple and not polluted with every kind of damned snake oil the hydro shop wants to push on growers. But I've always ran aged aerated water so its ready when needed, and never strayed away from the old faithful GH flora series nutrients with little or no additives other than the occasional silicone additive (potassium silicate makes a great pH up btw) and the usual pH down phosphoric acid.

Now, I havent really given much thought to why I haven't had the dredded slime problems, but perhaps its because my water is well aged and aerated before I mix fresh nutes. Hmmmm ?

Why not set up a healthy thriving water barrel with beneficial bacteria and use that for nute mixing, reservoir topping off etc. ??????

Think about it ?
It's really not hard at all to get a good nitrogen cycle going in water. People who keep aquariums know never to put the expensive fish into a newly setup aquarium without having properly aged water, so that there is a living nitrogen cycle running in the tank before the fish are introduced, lest those expensive fish all die.

There are two main ways 'methods' to accomplish this beneficial bacteria or "Nitrogen cycle"...

Method #1...
Bubbling the water to de-gas the chlorine, then adding some sacrificial fish. The fish will add the ammonia in their excrement and urine. This ammonia will cause the nitro simmonas bacteria to show up, these bactors will consume the ammonia and convert it to Nitrites, which in turn will cause the nitro bactor bacteria to show up... they then consume the Nitrites and convert it to harmless nitrates. The nitrogen cycle is complete and the water is then a safe symbiosis for the fish. The fish feed the bacteria and the bacteria make the water non toxic for the fish. The only problem with this method of starting the aquarium is that Nitrites are toxic for the fish and some if not all the fish will die by the time the nitrogen cycle gets going properly. Fish keepers use cheap expendable goldfish for this method and when they can they'll also help the cycle get going sooner by innoculating the new tank with some aged used water from an already existing fish tank. Of course, always keep the water well aerated and the cycle will continue living and healthy.

Or Method #2,
Instead of sacrificing fish, the fish keeper simply fills the tank with fresh water, then adds common household ammonia. About a cup for a 29 gallon tank of water is plenty enough ammonia for the beneficial bacteria to show up in the system and get the nitrogen cycle process going. Just test the water with a Nitrite test kit and when you see the nitrites spike, its a good sign that the cycle is starting to take place....after a couple days test again and you'll see the nitrites drop...the nitrogen cycle is now established. Of course with either method good aeration must continue and you'll need to either add a teaspoon or two of ammonia every couple weeks or just throw in some goldfish to keep feeding the cycle. Fish don't need an aquarium just a good nitrogen cycle and a dash of fish food to thrive.
Hang a filter off the side of the water barrel and you've got yourself a perpetual "live" water supply.

Folks,
Any seasoned hydro grower with experience will already have a garbage can or other barrel or tub for their tap water to age and aerate in in order to "de-gas" the chlorine out of the water... to use for their res top offs and for mixing current and future nute solutions. Those that have large barrels bubbling away all the time probably already have some nitrogen cycle (although a weak one) going in the water already and don't realize it. I see no reason why one couldn't have two big garbage cans or tubs, one to de-gas new tap water in so you don't kill any BB's adding back fresh tap water to the barrel, and the second barrel to keep that nitrogen cycle thriving in so you never are adding chlorinated tap water to the "live" water barrel.

Use that second "live water" barrel for your plant waterings and nute mixes.

Discussion ??

Completely agree. A lot of what I posted in this sticky long ago is what I was reading on about in fish aquarium forums. I couldn't find anything about it here on this website. Also, a lot can be learned from Big Tokes bio hydro set up. It's basically a system seeded with benes like we are talking about. I touched on this previously too.

The benes are very worthy of discussion but I do not have any immediate experience to share. I have past experience with the benes out of the bottle, but I was using snake oils at the same time. Those times went to the dumper. But, you know me in this thread and once I move to benes again if need be with a simple base nute program I will share the experience. For now all of you trying the benes, please, post your details and experience.

 

[D.I.trY]

Hi richyrich, its good to have differing opinions or there would be no opportunity to learn anything new from one another. You might well show us all that UV is a cure for this but i'm skeptical. Once you have your roots sitting in a water culture, there is an environment there for either bad micro-organisms, or good, to take hold. Why would UV favour the good guys?

In my experience of this stuff, it grows on things. A UV filter is notoriously useless for those kind of problems. Once you have had it once its extremely likely to come back. I had it growing on my roots, airline, thermometer, on an oxydator (which it loved!), airstone - all whilst the water was clear. Remember that to transfer from one surface to another not all of these cells will first pass through the UV, and once a root ball is colonised, with no BB colony already to outcompete it, it will spread regardless of a uv filter. Lets say you are right that it prevents it ever getting a foothold, well then thats like walking on thin ice in my opinion. A strong BB colony on the roots is fully protects - and against other problems like pithium too.

Its an extremely long thread already and i'm not aware of your history with this slime. I dont have time to re-read it, I apologise. About the hydroguard, I didnt say that with certainty and was hoping to be corrected if wrong and some nice person did. Its not enough to simply add the BB to the water however - you must give them a home. When the roots came into contact with the "home", healthy root growth exploded and slime dissapeared within a week on those already affected roots.

 

[D.I.trY]

hi 10k, I agree completely that the hydro companies sell alot of crap. I mean when you read a bottle of hydro marketed BB, and they say to reapply every week, at every nute change and in large doses, you know they have missed the point completely. A bottle would last a few weeks if used as directed but then they want you to buy another one dont they.

You got it right about the nitrogen cycle. In aquaponics you have ammonia from the fish waste that is broken down to nitrites, which is then converted to nitrates by a different class of bacteria. The plants remove the nitrates to prevent toxic buildup. Fish can tolerate moderate levels of nitrates but not of the other two. Since we dont add any significant amounts of ammonia in a hydro setup, its probably true that a different class of bacteria to those above, in biofilters for ponds and aquaponics, are colonising the roots and making the nutrients more aborbable.

I took a bit of filter medium from my pond filter and that still did the job so the ones that take over in a hydro environment must be already present. I think that water flow alone in a large container is not enough to get a strong colony. How many people have installed a pump in there pond expecting to get clear, clean smelling water only to be dissapointed. You gotta have a water flow of oxygenated water passing through a large suface area.

In a DWC you already have a waterflow of oxgenated water. Just put a piece of koi filter matting next to the airstone and add a bit of that BB bottled stuff. Here is what it looks like:



It is the blue fiberous stuff behind the airstone/tube. Richyrich, you said that it wont be easy to take care of them, but its extremely easy. Not adding h2o2 is easier than adding it. Not letting it dry out and not turning the airpump off is a given anyway. Simple as that really and its an elegant solution

 

[VagPuncher]

Hey Guys,

I have some sort of Brown Slime on my roots also. Its weird cause the plants that have it are the healthiest ones. They are taking off really well.

I can see the white roots through the slime. I think it may be a mixture of the Advanced Nutrients 'B52' and 'Liquid Carboload' im using.

Im gonna run 2ml of Hydro-Peroxide in the system for 2 days and report back to you.

 

[richyrich]

Hi richyrich, its good to have differing opinions or there would be no opportunity to learn anything new from one another.

Agreed, that differing opinions are healthy for discovery. But, as I make you aware now, I do not like to be spoken for such as the following.

You state I said the following in bold.

Richyrich, you said that it wont be easy to take care of them, but its extremely easy. Not adding h2o2 is easier than adding it. Not letting it dry out and not turning the airpump off is a given anyway. Simple as that really and its an elegant solution

And what I actually stated is quoted below.

A UV light in the rez is a lot more easier than seeding a rez and taking care of benes the whole way through.

I did not state that taking care of benes is not easy. I made a contrasting statement regarding the ease of two differing ways. It is true that dropping in a UV light into the rez is easier than benes. What would be the procedure. To just place it in the rez, plug it in and forget about it. What would be the procedure for benes. Seed the reservoir before planting, say 1-2 weeks before, and then make sure nothing goes awry. It's a little more involved than that, but you can get the mental picture. And that was the point of my statement. Putting in a UV light is easier than benes in a reservoir. Not " ...it won't be easy to take care of them."

 

[richyrich]

Hey Guys,

I have some sort of Brown Slime on my roots also. Its weird cause the plants that have it are the healthiest ones. They are taking off really well.

I can see the white roots through the slime. I think it may be a mixture of the Advanced Nutrients 'B52' and 'Liquid Carboload' im using.

Im gonna run 2ml of Hydro-Peroxide in the system for 2 days and report back to you.

I can't really tell, are your roots with the brown on them mushy and easy to pull apart?

One recommendation, lose the carboload. It's an accelerant for slime if you do have it. Carboload is better used in soil, soilless or coco grows to feed benes.

 

[VagPuncher]

I can't really tell, are your roots with the brown on them mushy and easy to pull apart?

One recommendation, lose the carboload. It's an accelerant for slime if you do have it. Carboload is better used in soil, soilless or coco grows to feed benes.

Hey Richy,

No the roots are nice and strong. Thick and white. Just govered in this goop.

I will scrap the carboload ASAP.

I emptied the rez, scrubbed the bottom with the water+peroxide mix and refilled the rez with PH balanced H20 and peroxide.

My fingers are crossed.

 

[opt1c]

why bother with h2o2 when zone seems to work so much better, mycostop is the best for preventing it from getting a foothold if you want beneficials... i know you want to save money but h2o2 doesn't kill this stuff... it might prevent root rot but this is different than root rot... bleach won't even kill it... physan 20 is better but not perfect still... and that's just for cleaning... also zone is really cheap when you get down to the actual dilution rate, i think it's like 5ml/5gal... just don't know why you want to risk burning the crap out of your plants for temporary marginal results? also for running a clean res stick to the gh2 part lucas formula with the zone... doesn't give the bacteria much to feed on.. preventing light leaks in the res can play a big part as well


i could possibly see a uv light working running inline for the supply tubes in a dwc but i don't know how much it'd do chilling in a res

i used to run biobuckets so i know all about dwc water temps, dissolved o2, and the slime... nothing worse than loosing a monster a couple weeks before harvest full of ferts to the dreaded slime.. i run coco now but i'm thinking about rockwool chum dtw in bato's... btw... my power bill since loosing the 24/7 1800gph pump, massive airpump, 1/4hp waterchiller, etc has halved

 

[VagPuncher]

Pardon my ignorance, but whats 'zone'?

 

[richyrich]

opt1c, not to come off arrogant here, but I am the one who introduced the zone to this thread with my experience.

I never said I was going to use the H2O2 from the get go.

Zone is a product made my Dutch Master. It's main effective ingredient is a chloramine. Chloramines are a compound of chlorine and ammonia. I found it to be the best product to keep the slime at bay. For complete killing then Physan20 is the ticket.

 

[richyrich]

I really hope you guys could take the time to read this thread in it's entirety. I first posted in this thread in May 2007. If anything, please, use the filter posts function on my name before offering advice to myself of what I have advised long ago. Thank you.

 

[richyrich]

Hey Richy,

No the roots are nice and strong. Thick and white. Just govered in this goop.

I will scrap the carboload ASAP.

I emptied the rez, scrubbed the bottom with the water+peroxide mix and refilled the rez with PH balanced H20 and peroxide.

My fingers are crossed.

You may have had an overabundance of beneficial bacteria instead of the slime since your roots described seemed healthy and the plants were vigorous. I have done this myself with subculture and liquid carbo load in the past. I know you already did the H2O2, but I would have advised against it. I would of suggested a gentle bathing of the roots, a rez change and ditching the carbo load. Good luck.