Stabilizing desirable traits in heterozygous plants?

[Adze]

The original question was how to stabilize traits in Heterozygous plants not hermies.
Although I agree with the gist of Bigge's statements.

Heterozygous Definition:

(1) Of, or pertaining to an individual (or a condition in a cell or an organism) containing two different alleles for a particular trait.

(2) Having dissimilar alleles that code for the same gene or trait.

 

[Nunsacred]

.....and there's no easy answer to that question.

There might be simplistic examples, but it depends on the trait itself, and the context it lies within.
If the trait is a really important one, like hermie trait, it remains in flux no matter how much you inbreed because the plants have a store of multiple allele pairs.

Many a hand has scaled the grand old face of the plateau.
Some say it was Greenland, & some say Mexico.
Others decided it was nowhere except for where they stood,
but those are all just guesses, wouldn't help you if they could.

 

[stickshift]

stress reversing as a means to stabilize traits isn't in any book i've read on genetics.

also, stress reversing has definitely been show to add hermaphroditism to otherwise stable lines.

the ONLY thing stress reversing is good for is trying to duplicate clone only strains. even then, the seeds should come with a "DO NOT BREED" warning label.

As my other post got butchered, could you clarify what you mean in regard to stress reversal, to you imply the use of STS/CS to stress the plant or do you mean the likes of somas encouragement of intersexuals? there's nothing wrong with selfing using STS/CS.

 

[Tom Hill]

Fadetoclear, it was everywhere in those books, you just did not see it for what it was? Breeders bypass and side-step the natural breeding devices plants come with in nature by trade, it is by matter of fact exactly what they do for a living sir. It's just that it's such a given that not much time is spent on the topic because those in the know, already know. Have you never had a seedless watermelon, or cuke? Well, attempt to read about those in a book and you'll find yourself pretty much sol, but there they are anyway, bred by those who understand the true implications of what those books are actually laying down. You are just plain wrong sir.

 

[blastfrompast]

I guess I might as well chime in here..

From observation....

Females that tend to nanner when put under stress tend to pump out seeds that nanner.. at least the first generation...which is as far as I take it.

Now more stable females that need an extra boost via chemicals (GA, etc.) to produce male flowers...they tend to have much lower resulting offspring that express the hermi trait....but it still will pop up naturally...just not as often.

My unknown sativa puts out nanners late in life, her offspring have avg'd about 1 in 4 turning hermi like the sativa parent.

BUT the vigor of the crosses has been amazing, I try a handfull every year OD....

On its own ...great, roots easily, no mold issues...but lacks the stone that people look for (vs just high as hell)...and flavor....cash cropping queen tho...

The beans I have tried through accidental/deliberate crossing have been all over the map when it comes to taste, high, color....but the yields have been up there with its parent. Seems to be one trait that locks down pretty hard, oh and sensitivity to daylight changes like her mom...She just starts to bud when grown under less than 20hours of light (I do 21 to keep her quasi-vegging)...

On the downside 1 child that throws nanners at week 2-3 of flower will make you cry...and prompt you to build an isolation room for these sorts of experiments (choosing a mom from random crosses with the sativa grown OD)

It is a strain that probably should never be used for breeding IMHO, but it sure is interesting to see what pops out

I also have some ww (induced to produce male flowers) bred to the sativa..See if going the opposite way adds any excitement...

I am certainly not a breeder, more of a pollen chucker playing around...

It is fun tho..lol

 

[scai]

...........

WHY

because EVERYONE is making a mockery of cannabis thinking that any good that has come from it wasn't already in its genetic makeup

cannabis is THE most dynamic cultivar known to man

in its uses: fuel fibre food medicine

In its prorogation methods: cross pollinate, self pollinate, clone

it its ability to grow anywhere: indoor outdoor most climates and ecosystems

in its ability to transform lives: fill in the blank
-----------
THE REAL MAGIC is in the plant, and the real magic is a tailor made relationship between us and it, the more personal, teh more full circle the better.

Exactly! Because it's A WEED! It has all the abilities to be successfull.It's offering them to mankind
And instead of clashing egos, you should think how to use it's fantastic abilities.
It doesn't matter who is right and whos wrong.
People have different goals and different tecnics.So why not share?And not try to supress someone elses opinnions.
I think that's called conversation?

Why not make best of genes, doing it by selfing or crossing.
It's not all in books either

Hermie issue is plants way to ensure life. But...it still has same genes as parent.Or herself. No male.
How to prune it out, is a good question.
Not sure if many of us is willing to do such a great job...

 

[DreamOfGreen]

after reading all this and some from the links giving, I know enough to know I don't know enough...
aside from some small discourtesies in some post, great thread. Thanx moses wellfleet for strting it, and to everyone contributing knowledge and sharing experiences.

 

[moses wellfleet]

How many peeps are using selfed plants in their breeding programmes these days, has the technique caught on?

 

[Pendleton]

Moses,

Selfing has always been a legitimate technique used in the world of plant breeding. It is only in the world of cannabis breeding, where so much of our education has been DIY and derailed by talk of "ethics" that selfing is derided as some boogie-man. Selfing as Tom pointed out years ago is the best way to stabilize traits in an individual plant. My opinion after that is the next best way is to breed the plant with a sibling, progeny test, then backcross to the individual. It's all a numbers game however, and prohibition is crippling that aspect of it.

 

[Elmer Bud]

funny that so many people here at odds come from places where the water spins in a different direction when you flush

G `day W

That water spinning the other way is sposed to happen in the Sthn Hemisphere . Not in the UK / EU .[Nthn Hemisphere ]

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[meizzwang]

I am sure this subject has been beaten to death I have a clone of Burmaberry which I would like to make crosses with but I want to try and first work with it so that it passes on more of its desirable traits to the progeny.

I already out crossed it to another untested line, the results were volatile to say the least, from pure sativas to pure indicas and every imaginable combination in between.

I know that Burmaberry is a cross of shiksaberry #3 and a Burmese land race or at least an IBL (reeferman seeds). I believe it was a straight pollen chuck, no real breeding was done.



Obviously an IBL would have been first prize but I don't have a male. So that leaves back crossing. But I remember chimera saying that back crossing a known heterozygous plant is futile. So what options does this leave me?

Not a simple answer, it greatly depends on the genetics of the parents. Heterozygote plants that have been outcrossed for many generations in a row without strict selection for particular traits in every cross require a different approach compared to a heterozygote that was the result of crossing two inbred lines. However, in both cases, the larger the population you can grow out, the higher the probability you'll find the traits you're looking for in both a male and female plant from the same seed batch. It may take several generations inbreeding individuals with the traits you want in order to stabilize them, but sometimes it doesn't take too many because the parental lines were historically already very well inbred.

Breeding isn't black and white like mendelian genetics, there's no generalizations that work for every cross. Real breeders work with their lines for decades and know how they "behave" when outcrossed and inbred, and they make crosses and select for traits based on analyzing the results of each cross or "selfing." There are also shortcuts (ie.taking a high demand, well renouned, stable cultivar, self it, like Swerve has done) but that's not breeding, it's merely reproducing a line someone has already created.

Brussel sprouts are the same exact genus and species as cabbage, but brussel sprouts are a "mutated form" of cabbage that produced a stalk and a bunch of heads on the stalk. Seeds from the mutant were collected, and only the best plants from the offspring were selected for. This continued for countless generations until the mutation was stabilized, and then it was eventually back-crossed with other genetically different cabbage plants to increase vigor and disease resistance. It was then inbred again for several generations to maintain the brussel sprouts structure as well as disease resistance and vigor.

Breeding can take so many different directions, never let someone convince you one way won't work because not every "line" behaves the same way or conforms to the oversimplified mendelian genetics model.

 

[Lesnah]

Well put Meizz.....

 

[moses wellfleet]

Thanx for posting. The question had been answered in detail by Tom Hill. But now all trace of his posts are gone and the heart has been ripped out of this thread. Just to clarify why it doesn't make sense on some pages!

 

[stoney917]

I love to see shut I posted in 13 today still stand by it..

 

[Bongstar420]

Um, looks like you got Bermese Landrace. IBL would be uniform.

I am sure this subject has been beaten to death I have a clone of Burmaberry which I would like to make crosses with but I want to try and first work with it so that it passes on more of its desirable traits to the progeny.

If all you got in front of you is a P1 x F1, you can inbreed that generation. Just do test crosses to find the more uniformly desirable lines. You could also do a couple of BX lines within the F2. I've done this kind of stuff, and the populations are very similar to each other with similar amounts of inbreeding depression so I don't think the particular pattern of BX and F2 is that important-maybe.

I already out crossed it to another untested line, the results were volatile to say the least, from pure sativas to pure indicas and every imaginable combination in between.

I know that Burmaberry is a cross of shiksaberry #3 and a Burmese land race or at least an IBL (reeferman seeds). I believe it was a straight pollen chuck, no real breeding was done.

Obviously an IBL would have been first prize but I don't have a male. So that leaves back crossing. But I remember chimera saying that back crossing a known heterozygous plant is futile. So what options does this leave me?

 

[Bongstar420]

Um, looks like you got Bermese Landrace. IBL would be uniform.


If all you got in front of you is a P1 x F1, you can inbreed that generation. Just do test crosses to find the more uniformly desirable lines. You could also do a couple of BX lines within the F2. I've done this kind of stuff, and the populations are very similar to each other with similar amounts of inbreeding depression so I don't think the particular pattern of BX and F2 is that important-maybe.


Ya..Oops. Double Post

I am sure this subject has been beaten to death I have a clone of Burmaberry which I would like to make crosses with but I want to try and first work with it so that it passes on more of its desirable traits to the progeny.


I already out crossed it to another untested line, the results were volatile to say the least, from pure sativas to pure indicas and every imaginable combination in between.

I know that Burmaberry is a cross of shiksaberry #3 and a Burmese land race or at least an IBL (reeferman seeds). I believe it was a straight pollen chuck, no real breeding was done.

Obviously an IBL would have been first prize but I don't have a male. So that leaves back crossing. But I remember chimera saying that back crossing a known heterozygous plant is futile. So what options does this leave me?