Stabilizing desirable traits in heterozygous plants?

[MedicalGrower]

Self plants

Self plants

Tom can clear this up, I am under the understanding that a self'd lady is indeed a girl turned boy and then breed back to herself.

Crossed back to a male brother she will produce F1 offspring, does it not???
Again my understanding...
mg

so how is this considered an acceptable breeding technique?? it may be good for producing seeds from a clone only but as a general breeding practice, it should be avoided at all cost. this is the prime reason we have so many hermi ridden genetics in the pool. "selfing" in the context you've used it should NEVER be used in a proper breeding line.

i found it hard to believe tom hill was condoning reverse sexing so i looked back at his post and it seems to me that by using the word "self" he meant to cross it within it's own immediate gene pool (IE crossing with it's own father) then picking from that line, the plants that best represent the pheno you are trying to achieve.

the original post in this thread related to how one could lock down certain traits in a heterozygous line. at no point would reversing a female plant help in that endeavor. the term "self" has been used pretty freely lately what with all the people trying hard to make seeds from clone only's.

 

[moses wellfleet]

For a long time I didn't like the idea of feminized seeds for the reasons you mentioned. Inter sex traits will only show if the line inherited these tendencies. Reversing a plant will not cause hermies.

Hopefully Tom will come along and explain it to you better!

 

[exploziv]

Tom can clear this up, I am under the understanding that a self'd lady is indeed a girl turned boy and then breed back to herself.

Crossed back to a male brother she will produce F1 offspring, does it not???
Again my understanding...
mg

It's S1, because it's selfed. but selfed means breed to itself, so you are right.

 

[moses wellfleet]

And it's a desirable breeding tool because now the genetic potential of the pollen is known instead of time consuming and laborious test grows when pollen from a regular male is used!

 

[foomar]

The research on hemp that really started the feminised business was published in 1979 .

In a race to make money with inadequate selection often useing late flower hermies , its potential for breeding canna was overlooked in a general mistrust of feminised seed that lasted till recently.

Without that baggage , Tom,s methodology seems to allow more to be done with fewer plants in manageable batches in less time , than by useing males.

A botanist or commercial plant breeder with no emotional atachment to canna would probably agree as its down to maths in the end , and we are useing numbers that are very low by traditional breeding standards.


The best you could ever get is half the plants expressing the desired traits by whichever route , but repeat selfing should get you there quicker.

 

[fadetoclear]

stress reversing as a means to stabilize traits isn't in any book i've read on genetics.

also, stress reversing has definitely been show to add hermaphroditism to otherwise stable lines.

the ONLY thing stress reversing is good for is trying to duplicate clone only strains. even then, the seeds should come with a "DO NOT BREED" warning label.

 

[foomar]

This is not useing environmental stress reversing , thats what got femmed a bad rep way back.

Few would advocate rodelisation as a breeding method or to produce femmed seed now.

It is induceing male flowers by means of hormone interruptions or levels that would not naturally occur , by GA3 or forms of silver , which i assumed was common knowledge to anyone with even a passing interest in the subject.

 

[fadetoclear]

i understand the various procedures used to induce stress and force flowers. it's just been my opinion, when using the progeny to breed, it causes crazy numbers of hermaphrodites.

the only purpose i can think of for doing this is either to produce feminized seeds or to produce seeds from a clone only strain.

i really hope respectable breeders aren't doing this. regardless of how well the first batch turns out, using these stressed seeds in further crosses isn't a good idea.

 

[moses wellfleet]

Why don't you try it if you so keen to prove your point. Colloidal silver is easy enough to make. Grow out a couple of selfed generations and prove us all wrong!

 

[40shades]

Sorry for adding neg rep to tom hills post I have fat thumbs

 

[VerdantGreen]

.......

also, stress reversing has definitely been show to add hermaphroditism to otherwise stable lines.

.......

i think this statement is complete nonsense.
do you have any reference to back it up? what makes you think this is the case?

VG

 

[Aardwolf]

I believe so too VG, half of the cannabis genome is added from a male haploid condition, therefore the female side of it needs to find some Y from somewhere to survive. This is why we inherently see more inter-sexed plants using this seed making technique.

It is documented in many parers that a big Y is the only determination between the sexes, and that looking at the phenotypes is utter useless for scientific breeding purposes. http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs001220051043.pdf

Everything I have grown that was not of a dioecious cross is not able to produce the minerals I require.

If a plant self's it is not going to produce the offspring I require because of the survival trait. Sex is an environmental induced trait despite the fact that we know it is a chromatically determined (genotype). The ratio can be pushed a little way in either direction, that's the environmental determination of sex and not a primary/sole source of sex determination.

This defines Hack and breeding plan/program VG, one method is artistic use of science the other is by chance, scientific breeding plans make synthetic lines, they allow no other determination of sex, Sex and Genotype is set by the breeder at propagation ideally through trial and error to hopefully realise and achieve the mono-hybrid ratio through these breeding practices.

These plants will stay true in multiple environments.

 

[Aardwolf]

I believe so too VG, half of the cannabis genome is added from a male haploid condition, therefore the female side of it needs to find some Y from somewhere to survive. This is why we inherently see more inter-sexed plants using this seed making technique.

It is documented in many parers that a big Y is the only determination between the sexes, and that looking at the phenotypes is utter useless for scientific breeding purposes.

Everything I have grown that was not of a dioecious cross is not able to produce the minerals I require.

If a plant self's it is not going to produce the offspring I require because of the survival trait.

Any 'staminate' male flowers are detracting from much needed ATP for THC production. I believe taking vital energy from my goal phenotype! This condition is Homogenous.

 

[fadetoclear]

without pulling hundreds of precise examples...anybody who has ever bred using reversed pollen will tell you, you increase the risk of intersexing and this increases throughout subsequent generations if used as breeding stock. i have seen this happen literally thousands of times. sure, you might find females that don't show intersexing but you are going to find MUCH larger numbers of intersexed plants than you would through normal male/female breeding.

why exactly do you think EVERY one of the chem lines are ate up with nanners? nearly every chem line that's been bred has had issues with intersexing. the reason being that the original seeds were from stressed female pollen.

i know there are a LOT of people on the "reversing/selfing" train right now. as i've said before, this process is great for producing seeds from clone only strains. that's the only situation it should be used. even then, they should come with a "DO NOT REPRODUCE OR BREED" sticker. "Selfing" cannabis is IMHO worse than GMO food products for the overall population.

 

[VerdantGreen]

so no references that support your theory guys.?

ftc, the original chem D seed was very likely created from a plant the hermed in a grow room, not by reversing a well selected plant using STS or CS - there is a whole world of difference between the two.

ive made S1s myself and not had any reports of herms from thousands of seeds sold.

my personal experience FWIW.. i have never had a herm from a fem seed, but had several from regular seed.

i just grew out some seeds of a Blueberry cross, the Bb was from fem seed. no herms or male flowers.

i can understand psychologically why people would think badly of fem seeds, and in practice if they are making no differentiation between seeds made from a hermy pollinating itself under normal growroom conditions, and seeds from a well selected Chemically reversed parent then really they are not being objective

VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

I believe so too VG, half of the cannabis genome is added from a male haploid condition, therefore the female side of it needs to find some Y from somewhere to survive. This is why we inherently see more inter-sexed plants using this seed making technique.

.......

if this is the case then wouldnt we see more hermies coming from normal plants run for sensi?

 

[fadetoclear]

i really hadn't intended to dredge up an obviously sore topic. i also won't go through and find tons of examples to prove my point as i'm not really trying to win a penis swinging contest.

it has been shown that stress reversing, colloidal silver stress reversing, and other highly invasive reversing techniques cause intersexing when used as breeding stock. i understand there are literally thousands of breeders trying to hang their hats on these techniques.

as a hobby breeder, i will only use plants i know contained a male and a female as parents. that way, when nanners start popping up, i know it's stress and not someone's sketchy reversing techniques.

just my 2 cents. obviously my opinion will be looked over being as how i don't have dozens of rep points and i'm not willing to go find dozens of examples but experience has dictated (both mine and the experience of countless others), that stress reversing, no matter the technique, will produce increased numbers of intersexed plants.

in the last ten years, we have seen the number of unstable, hermi ridden plants increase exponentially. this will only get worse as breeders continue to find ways of duplicating other breeder's work instead of tying to create new lines of their own. most of this "reversal" phase people are going through is in an often vain attempt to replicate "GS Cookies" or some other clone only strain. if said breeders would put as much effort into understanding proper genetics and proper husbandry. maybe we wouldn't have so many hermie freaks in the gene pool.

just food for thought.

 

[fadetoclear]

i will also stand by my assumption (until tom comes in and states otherwise) that in tom's original post, the using of the term "self" did not imply stress reversal.

 

[VerdantGreen]

ftc, again the examples you use are genetics that are already pre-disposed to hermie, so yes if you self an elite clone that hs a tendency to herm then the offspring will likely have the same tendency. that is bad selection (although often there is a big demand for such seeds anyway)

i will also stand by my assumption (until tom comes in and states otherwise) that in tom's original post, the using of the term "self" did not imply stress reversal.

how are you going to self a cannabis plant without reversing it?

 

[Aardwolf]

if this is the case then wouldnt we see more hermies coming from normal plants run for sensi?

This would be the case with a random 1-1 mating that wasn't selected for performance or Homozygosity for the traits of interest.

Female seed from scientific breeding programs differ in the fact that they produce high numbers of Pistillate individuals with little chance of the big Y coming into set the Sexes apart from the outset.

I have had differing experiences with Female seeds VG, but I did not make these seeds, so I can't comment on the breeding practised.

I would think that a female reversed under exposure to a hormone suppressant would have to have some natural heterozygosity present in the mitochondrial DNA or it wouldn't happen VG.

I would need a lab to prove this and I am working towards this goal.

Some females reverse but don't have pollen. This tells us that this trait it is in the individual plants, selection of the females with this Mitochondrial DNA will continue to express this trait.