Source of Calcium without Nitrogen.

[ButterflyEffect]

Tissue sampling involved a good handful of leaves. There is no decent procedure for smaller samples, like a dozen. This led me to water sampling. What was fed, verse what was taken. Some lab studies have done the same. Plotting what feed they took, without destroying them. It's also a bit more holistic, as plucking leaves isn't plucking bud, twig or root. All of which we feed for. Though studying tissue samples from the different parts of the plants has great merit. You can watch migration, and morphology changes. That's really at the edge of what I want to know though, at the moment. More like bedtime reading, than my growing focus.

Eh, someday maybe. I'd also thought about testing my runoff vs my input, as well.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

Any time I've had weird mag yellowing which mag sulfate did not fix, I've found root aphids or the like messing with the roots and affecting nutrient uptake. Usually the worst around 3 weeks in to flower...

Edit: EC usually goes down as rain and runoff increases. Generally highest during winter months in most places.

Never once had aphids or russets, thankfully. Spiders yes, but I do an IPM spray every 2 months in veg and I haven't had them in 4 years. Also, my issues of late get much better once they get to flower.

My EC always goes up in the spring. I can see the water get a slight green tint and it goes from maybe 30ppm to 130ppm until early summer when all the pollen and whatnot settles down.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

I certainly have my share of root issues with my small pots grow. It's starting to look like excessive dry out at the pots bottom, where the compact nature of the root system there, stops moisture soaking in from elsewhere fast enough. I gave the pot bottom a little res, and results are promising. Though I never used to have to... I think my growing has come along and forced the issue. Since the LED switch sent me back to school.

Many of my issues could be blamed on small pots. I'm very demanding of them.

This was pretty much my latest issue. I trained and grew out the plants so well(mainlined) that I failed to uppot them before they had dryout problems. Normally I transplant when I'm moving them from the first stage to the second and I was still programmed to do that, except I should've been listening to the plants instead. It's what I get for having a way too small veg room for my needs.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Different areas then... in the winter in all places I have lived the ppm rises. The last place I was at would go from 200's in summer to 500's in winter. lol

 

[ButterflyEffect]

I used smaller posts in the past when it was one pot and done grow, 2 gallon. But they would need two waterings a day when they got into flower and summer time. I too would let them soak up the run off. But this really aggravates low pH issues. This caused me to go to rainwater and then opened the door to my calcium deficiency issues it turns out.

Went to bigger pots but then you don't get so much runoff as more media=more water holding=less watering frequency. It gets hard to stay on top of the soil pH. And watering with a mid 6.x will not fix the issue unless you really create a lot of runoff.

So I added perlite to my Happy Frog. Too much it seems at a 20% mix over what's already in it. When I water now a lot just runs on through. I have deeper/wider trays and a 1" spacer ring under the pot. I think I'll leave the perlite out of the soil used in the last repot.

As it is now though there is not much worry about over watering.

Just flushed the flower girls again yesterday as the nute burn was still coming on. Now I can see other trace mineral deficiencies showing up. But did get the run off up to 6.5 pH. Time for nutes again but with a 7.0 pH at least.

I used smaller posts in the past when it was one pot and done grow, 2 gallon. But they would need two waterings a day when they got into flower and summer time. I too would let them soak up the run off. But this really aggravates low pH issues. This caused me to go to rainwater and then opened the door to my calcium deficiency issues it turns out.

Went to bigger pots but then you don't get so much runoff as more media=more water holding=less watering frequency. It gets hard to stay on top of the soil pH. And watering with a mid 6.x will not fix the issue unless you really create a lot of runoff.

So I added perlite to my Happy Frog. Too much it seems at a 20% mix over what's already in it. When I water now a lot just runs on through. I have deeper/wider trays and a 1" spacer ring under the pot. I think I'll leave the perlite out of the soil used in the last repot.

As it is now though there is not much worry about over watering.

Just flushed the flower girls again yesterday as the nute burn was still coming on. Now I can see other trace mineral deficiencies showing up. But did get the run off up to 6.5 pH. Time for nutes again but with a 7.0 pH at least.

If you can, one of the best things I did for the Ca issue in rainwater was to add about 20% of my total water capacity with my well water. This way it adds the necessary buffers. I was able to stop using CalMAg as a result. All has been good up until my latest issue of me not transplanting soon enough out of solo cups.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

Different areas then... in the winter in all places I have lived the ppm rises. The last place I was at would go from 200's in summer to 500's in winter. lol

I can only speak to here as I've never grown anywhere else. I had a house on the other side of town many moons ago and that had city water and I never had any issues.

 

[Three Berries]

If you can, one of the best things I did for the Ca issue in rainwater was to add about 20% of my total water capacity with my well water. This way it adds the necessary buffers. I was able to stop using CalMAg as a result. All has been good up until my latest issue of me not transplanting soon enough out of solo cups.

When I originally went to rain water I was adding a cup of well to each gallon. Then went 50/50. But at the time I did not realize my problem of Ca deprivation.

Been using straight well water pH 7.4 with some MgCl2 added for the flower plants, CaCl2 for the veg plants. This after flushing incompletely and aggravating the nute burn issue I am having with the flowering plants. Today the runoff pH is much better with mid 6s.

My one sickly veg plant is a root problem. I can feel when inserting the water probe, no resistance from the roots gowning into the new filled soil on the outside of the pot when I up potted. Been giving it a nute spritz and it's better leaf color wise.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Interesting how these formulas arise from unknowns. My ultimate goal is to always 'barely' provide just enough for healthy cannabis growth. Excess is the silent quality killer, and present long before the plant shows visible signs of it.

I skip as much of this guesswork as possible by using r/o filtered water, then using water soluble calcium (KNF). When the leaves start showing the puff from too much calcium, I know the plant will need a touch less next run. This way I have extremely little calcium variation (and nearly nothing else) in my source water.

 

[ButterflyEffect]

Interesting how these formulas arise from unknowns. My ultimate goal is to always 'barely' provide just enough for healthy cannabis growth. Excess is the silent quality killer, and present long before the plant shows visible signs of it.

I skip as much of this guesswork as possible by using r/o filtered water, then using water soluble calcium (KNF). When the leaves start showing the puff from too much calcium, I know the plant will need a touch less next run. This way I have extremely little calcium variation (and nearly nothing else) in my source water.

What is this puff you speak of? I'd like to be able to better identify what's happening to the plants here.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I'd have to find the article... excess calcium can work with CO2 and produce larger sized cells. You can see the effect in over calcium fed plants as they get thick/puffy looking leaves. I call it PLS, or Puffy Leaf Syndrome.

In my thinking and experience, the larger the cell size the more non-trichome material is present. This adds up to more heat and more burnt plant flavor each toke. At the end of the bowl, the EXHALE of your last toke should still be tasty and enjoyable.

 

[Three Berries]

Hydroponics I have not tried but what works with it doesn't seem to work with my indoor grows in soil. Always leaves them lacking. So far watering to runoff each time seems to be the best way in soil to prevent the build up though it's a clean up hassle and expense. Or flushing but that takes a lot of water, 5 times the pot volume I was reading.

Speaking of flushing to reduce salts and raise pH, I just used hard well water for the hard water buffering pH of 7.4. I wonder if the low ppm rain water with pH 6.5 or so would be better?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I use the same method with soil now. I too water till runoff, but I'm currently working/re-learning with rabbit manure/urine and neutral soils for my base. Still using KNF water soluble calcium, and PLS happens regardless of hydro or soil, but only with too much calcium.

Started back to zero and working my way up.

My issue with hard water is, as always, the unneeded minerals the plant *will* suck up. Cannabis has multiple uptake pathways in addition to passive ionic.

 

[Three Berries]

I guess it makes a difference just what minerals are in the water to make it hard. Here all water goes through limestone to get to the aquifer. So I'm counting on the added Ca/Mg minerals. Got a little iron too. And I count on the high pH well water to help counter the nute acids when mixed.

 

[f-e]

Has anyone ever stopped the uphill pH climb, or did we just not measure before?
I can put up a good fight, adding hardness to neutralise with P-acid. Running low 5s to try and average a pH in there that's more reasonable. Flushing a little more through each time to help. However the pH rising is a clockwork affair, where the plants most certainly doing it. Some say the plant might be acidifying the substrate to favour uptake of the things it wants in later bloom. I don't know enough about ion exchange to be specific, but think it could well be unavoidable. All we can do is effect the degree to which the change takes hold. So in a big volume of water like dwc it could go unnoticed. While a small pot of soil with no runoff is going to be effected a lot.

Yay? Nay?

 

[ButterflyEffect]

Has anyone ever stopped the uphill pH climb, or did we just not measure before?
I can put up a good fight, adding hardness to neutralise with P-acid. Running low 5s to try and average a pH in there that's more reasonable. Flushing a little more through each time to help. However the pH rising is a clockwork affair, where the plants most certainly doing it. Some say the plant might be acidifying the substrate to favour uptake of the things it wants in later bloom. I don't know enough about ion exchange to be specific, but think it could well be unavoidable. All we can do is effect the degree to which the change takes hold. So in a big volume of water like dwc it could go unnoticed. While a small pot of soil with no runoff is going to be effected a lot.

Yay? Nay?

I can't speak to that specifically because I'm in perlite hempys. They always show a pH of about 7 in runoff regardless. Could be a new plant or a week before chop, still 7. I've wanted to know more about what you're asking but unless I switch methods, it'll remain elusive for me.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

With GH Maxibloom and Flora 3-part, the pH generally dropped like a stone for me in dwc. The difference is in the type of salts being used in the nute formula.

My best guess is the plant wants something which absorbs better at a diff pH and it is chasing for it. *shrug* No time to research it at the moment. Since this all happens after physical flower bulking quits, I believe it is a difference in nute requirements for 'just' oil production...

 

[Three Berries]

My pH always drops but it's my own doing as if I water to run off reliably it eliminates it and generally what goes in comes out, once under control, I've added perlite too.

So I'm going a different routine next time, started two seeds yesterday. Got a new soil to try.

Pro-Mix BX Biofungicide + Mycorrhizae

One will be straight well the other rain and 1/2 nutes CaCl2 and MgCl2 added, pH to 6.8 both.

I have either citric acid or nitric acid to pH down with. And ammonia and Potassium bicarbonate to pH up with.

Which is better?

 

[Dontbeamoron]

I have posted for 10+ years now on how I grow, and the majority already seem to know how and ignore it.

My grows are cool and dry, never above 69F if I can help it, 15 to 20% incoming RH, low feed, lately also low phosphorous, and in 3x air exchange per minute of high micron filtered air. The terpene production and retention is ridiculous.

25% of the population have very low ability for smell and taste. 50% are average, and 25% are much more sensitive. My grows are tailored to my ability to taste and smell, which is more sensitive than 90% of the population. I dislike burnt plant flavor so I grow to eliminate it as much as possible. The end result is stunning.

The other most important issue is how ANY overfeeding in flower impacts end quality. Cannabis is an accumulator, which means it has the ability to fix unused atoms and molecules directly to new tissue cell walls. Any 'fixed' items are locked out from plant use and will not leach or flush out. It is there till harvest and beyond.

I make sure all my screwups with nutes are underfeeding mistakes.

Under feeding? You're talking like there's 1 mineral involved. If you underfeed one mineral, you've overfed the other by default. There is no absence of nutrients, only imbalance. The PPM/EC does not matter. 1500ppm of what? Are we saying ratios are less important at low concentration? I don't believe it.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Sorry, worked 12hr days this week and it sounds like you have only read my posts in this thread.

 

[f-e]

Interesting. Typically people talk of pH climbing, but the last few posters see it drop. Perhaps as suggested, it's a more gradual change, based on what the plant takes and leaves. Some feed elements being acid (P) and others alkaline (K) and so it could go either way, perhaps just changing plants or feed or system.

Mine generally climbs. I don't recall it ever dropping. I'm a bit surprised, but glad I asked.

Back on topic, I can't seem to use calmag past about a half dose. Though I can put a lot more Ca and Mg in using separate bottles that offer no N.
N Ca and Mg all antaganise K. People using calmag often lower the base amount to keep EC in check. Further reducing K ability. Doing this in coco, with its sodium addition, might be the biggest cause of headache I have ever had