Something wicked this way comes

[DunHav`nFun]

1 question D9 bro....The open rez pic with the 2 float valves set at "X" inches above floor elevation....

Is that tank what sets solution level on every container in the room?....IOW....I see where all the other totes are daisy-chained together with all feed AND drain lines on rez/pump containers as well as the plant rez containers at floor level , and it made my old ass go hmmmm......if so...

Even though you`ll be moving 224 gals per day , you`ll only be doing it 1 quart every 15 mins/1 gal per hr/24 gals per day per plant container , and the "SLO-MO-DRO" movement keeps solution level from rising and dropping to any extent from said "slow solution movement" ?....anyways....

Just tryin to wrap my pore `ol head around the expansion of the system as well as the overhead DE fixtures compared to bare bulbs hangin....time will tell , and.....

I see no reason why a lower ppm regimen across the board wouldn`t support 1st week transplants in a perpetual staggered planting process....regardless...

Thanks for your time , knowledge , and hands on experience....

Peace...DHF.........

 

[delta9nxs]

1 question D9 bro....The open rez pic with the 2 float valves set at "X" inches above floor elevation....

Is that tank what sets solution level on every container in the room?....IOW....I see where all the other totes are daisy-chained together with all feed AND drain lines on rez/pump containers as well as the plant rez containers at floor level , and it made my old ass go hmmmm......if so...

Even though you`ll be moving 224 gals per day , you`ll only be doing it 1 quart every 15 mins/1 gal per hr/24 gals per day per plant container , and the "SLO-MO-DRO" movement keeps solution level from rising and dropping to any extent from said "slow solution movement" ?....anyways....

Just tryin to wrap my pore `ol head around the expansion of the system as well as the overhead DE fixtures compared to bare bulbs hangin....time will tell , and.....

I see no reason why a lower ppm regimen across the board wouldn`t support 1st week transplants in a perpetual staggered planting process....regardless...

Thanks for your time , knowledge , and hands on experience....

Peace...DHF.........

hey fred! good to hear from you! i hope you had a good time over the holidays!

what you're looking at is two adjacent rooms that are part of a storage unit complex. the slab is pretty level.

the float tank does control the levels throughout the building. it is close to the center between the two rooms.

in at least one photo above you will see a bucket lid under the plant module on some sites. we use those to achieve equal water levels where necessary.

my actual delivery rate is 1/2 gal every 90 minutes with this medium. the duration of the event is 30 seconds.

so each side of the building is controlled by one repeat cycle timer. in full operation they will be staggered so that they go off 45 minutes apart.

when the pumps fire the supply buckets are delivering 1/2 gal to each site bringing the water level down in the supply buckets approx 1.4 inches.

and the plant/drain side is raised by the approx same amount.

gravity the does the work of leveling the system.

we only have the veg side operating right now with 12 sites but it will achieve equlibrium in less than 10 minutes after firing.

have a good 'un!

 

[DunHav`nFun]

Well.....I guess the old saying "water will seek it`s own level" holds true.....if all containers are daisy chained together that is....and yeah...

I saw the 1 container with the lid underneath , and your slab`s good and level if that`s what`s being used as a shim ....btw....

What is the height level of solution on all your containers bro....aight....

I`l be over here on my bucket watchin and learnin....

Peace....Freds.........

 

[delta9nxs]

Well.....I guess the old saying "water will seek it`s own level" holds true.....if all containers are daisy chained together that is....and yeah...

I saw the 1 container with the lid underneath , and your slab`s good and level if that`s what`s being used as a shim ....btw....

What is the height level of solution on all your containers bro....aight....

I`l be over here on my bucket watchin and learnin....

Peace....Freds.........

the bucket lids i use give about a 3/8" lift. some sites in the flower room have 1 or 2 but most have none.

but we have made this work on 4% grade floors before.

the operating water level is 7" giving me a 4" air gap in these 3.5 gal buckets. the total water volume of the circulating system with both rooms fully loaded will be about 300 gals.

i've got 9 55 gal drums feeding that. this whole complex has 1 hose bib and i'm about 175' from it so with 9 drums i don't have to pull the friggin' hose out and refill everyday.

most grow methods i've tried before were very labor intensive. i've tried to design everything in such a way as to minimize that.

using a perpetual schedule all labor events are broken up into a series of small, manageable episodes that can be performed by 1 or 2 people.

we won't have the harvest scene where a gang of folks have to come over and work intensely for a week or two. i will harvest 1 or 2 plants a week, depending on strains.

 

[p5150]

Delta, first of all hello my name is Jerry, and secondly, thank you for sharing your knowledge!
To my question... your set up has two buckets per site (source w/pump), and (plant station w/drain)... are these separate for maintanance reasons??? in other words couldn't there be one station with pump underneath????.... not tryin to cheap out!!! just tryin to fully understand system.
The other question I have is could you please elaborate on "the air gap" i,ve been reading as many threads as i can find and i still have not grasped that one

 

[delta9nxs]

Delta, first of all hello my name is Jerry, and secondly, thank you for sharing your knowledge!
To my question... your set up has two buckets per site (source w/pump), and (plant station w/drain)... are these separate for maintanance reasons??? in other words couldn't there be one station with pump underneath????.... not tryin to cheap out!!! just tryin to fully understand system.
The other question I have is could you please elaborate on "the air gap" i,ve been reading as many threads as i can find and i still have not grasped that one

hi jerry! welcome! wow, you're a real turbo poster! 2 posts in 8 yrs? at that rate you will be able to pm in only 192 more yrs!

well, a simple straightforward answer is that, depending on how big a plant you want to grow, if the pump is in the same chamber as the plant and you have a pump failure just getting to it could be a nightmare.

i've had 8-10' diameter plants being supported by metal fencing that you can't remove without damaging the plant, planted in turface that, when wet, weighs 70 lbs. it becomes a major project just to get to it.

with smaller plants it may not be much of a problem.

that's just the maintenance side of it.

but also, if the pump is in the same container as the plant you will only be moving solution from bottom to top and back to bottom at that plant site only.

if it is at least connected to a central reservoir controlled by a float valve it will be fed in one direction replacing water lost to transpiration and evaporation but the solution will not be circulated.

this makes homogenizing the solution between multiple plant sites virtually impossible. they will all read ec and ph differently.

the method i have shown above not only feeds the plant it's attached to but also positively displaces water through the system in a linear fashion, creating circulation through a central reservoir.

this allows the solution to homogenize ec and ph between multiple plant sites as well as getting a dose of fresh nutrients and water.

you need to monitor ec and ph in order to steer the solution. but in the ppk it is not a critical process that must be performed on a rigorous schedule.

once or twice a week is frequent enough.

if you had multiple sites with a pump in each separate plant container you would have to take readings at each one of them.

and then you would have much more difficulty correcting than if the solution were homogenized.

i don't know how many plant sites you will have but if it is going to be a small number then a single pump in a central reservoir may be the way to go.

i hope this helps! i will have to answer the "air gap" question later.

 

[p5150]

thank you for the in depth answer!! makes total sense. I will patiently await your enlightenment on my other question,

 

[Mr Blah]

Had an idea that I am going to throw out there about the P5150, one bucket thing.
What if you had one control bucket with a herd of 12/? bucket sites to go with it.
What if you piggy backed each site with a small pump under each site (like P5150 mentioned) but feeding the next site and so forth until the end, which that one would feed the control bucket to complete the circulation issue?

Like I said it is just an idea. Maybe all ready thought of..?


Actually editing my own post with a problem with my own thought.....Like D9 mentioned it is going to be hard to get to for maintenance or pump issues.

 

[delta9nxs]

thank you for the in depth answer!! makes total sense. I will patiently await your enlightenment on my other question,

to understand the need for an "air gap" we first must understand the "perched water table".

growing in containers is fundamentally different than growing in the open soil column.

in the field, water applied to the surface around a plant continues through and past the root system leaving it well aerated. in other words water is not trapped in the root zone in a solid layer.

in a container there is formed after every watering event a layer of solid water at the bottom of the pot.

the height of the perched water table (pwt) is determined by the particle size of the medium. the finer the particle the larger the pwt.

this layer of water occurs because the forces of cohesion (waters attraction to itself) and adhesion (waters attraction to other substances) are holding water in the container against the force of gravity.

this layer of "solid" water" contains no air.

in a conventional container it can only be eliminated by transpiration and evaporation.

the gravitational flow potential (gfp) rapidly drains a freshly watered container down to the point where the pwt forms but no further leaving the roots sitting in a pool of water.

this is fine for short periods as the water will contain some dissolved oxygen.

but a fast growing plant can consume the o2 content rapidly leaving the roots sitting in an anaerobic solution.

this is where anerobic bacteria thrive and root rot begins.

i also feel that it sends some type of hormonal signal to slow plant growth for survival.

all of this is why you can't water a conventional pot until it nearly dries out.

but what if we had a way to mechanically drain the pwt immediately after each watering event?

this is where the ppk "tailpiece" comes in.

since the pwt will exist at the same height regardless of container shape or size we can move it down into the tailpiece greatly reducing it's size and therefore it's negative effect on the plant.

assuming these feed tub containers are a uniform 18" in diameter cylinder for math purposes and assuming a 1.5" pwt which is about average for most media, 3.1416 x radius 9" sq = 254.47 sq in x height of pwt 1.5" = 381.70 cu in divided by the number of cu in a gal 231 we get 1.65 gals or 211.2 oz's of saturated medium retained in the container.

by moving the pwt into the "tailpiece" the volume of the pwt is reduced radically.

in a 3" cylinder the same math shows 1.5"x1.5" = 2.25 x 3.1416 = 7.06 x height of pwt 1.5" = 10.60 divided by 231 = 0.0459 of a gallon or 5.87 oz's of saturated medium.

by moving the pwt into the tailpiece we have reduced the pwt by 97.2 %. and therefore it's negative hormonal feedback by, hopefully, the same amount.

this is where the "air gap" comes in.

the pwt will exist on top of the water level in the tailpiece

if there were no air gap and water were to totally fill the tailpiece below each plant the pwt will still fully exist in the root zone.

by adding an air gap of at least 1.5" we can move the pwt into the tailpiece completely.

since water in a container is not evenly distributed but graded by gravity there is a moisture distribution curve. drier at the top and wetter at the bottom.

with only a 1.5" air gap the bottom of the medium will still be too wet because of capillary rise.

by tuning the air gap we can adjust the moisture distribution curve in the root zone.

with most media an air gap of about 4" plus or minus an inch not only removes the pwt from the plant container but tunes the moisture content of the medium.

in the ppk we can totally control moisture content by using 3 tools.

the duration of each watering event, the interval between watering events, and the air gap, tuning the distribution curve in the root zone between events.

the root zone is an interface between roots, water, air, and nutrients. the more time during the life of the plant that this interface is kept in an ideal state the larger and heavier the plant will be.

the little graphic below depicts the pwt existing at the same height no matter the container shape or size. it is particle size that determines the height of the pwt.

 

[delta9nxs]

Had an idea that I am going to throw out there about the P5150, one bucket thing.
What if you had one control bucket with a herd of 12/? bucket sites to go with it.
What if you piggy backed each site with a small pump under each site (like P5150 mentioned) but feeding the next site and so forth until the end, which that one would feed the control bucket to complete the circulation issue?

Like I said it is just an idea. Maybe all ready thought of..?


Actually editing my own post with a problem with my own thought.....Like D9 mentioned it is going to be hard to get to for maintenance or pump issues.

we have done exactly that, pump in one and halo on another to try to homogenize the solution but as you pointed out we still had trapped pumps.

 

[p5150]

AWSOME!!!!!! THANK YOU!!! makes perfect sense! now i can start building To be clear...in the future when im trying to dial the system in and i want to talk about air gap adjustment...the measurement point would be from top of rez level to??? ...top of rez bucket,,orr bottom of planter basin,, orr am i being too ticky tack on this??

 

[p5150]

i would like to share a little background so that you understand where my line of questioning is coming from...
My experience with growing consists of two 3K runs of Big Tokes Bio Buckets..... both runs where a Pineapple Kush... the first run was amazing (for me anyways),,,the second run was a root rot spider mite shit show.
I feel this info is pertinent as the first run the biggest problem i had was keeping the monsters away from the lights (8'ceilings). I have 3 xxl lights and I would like to head in an efficient direction (i am not afraid of work).....
so my question is in regards to light vs canopy management... bush, scrog,or what are your thought on that set up Superweed showed in his 12PPK??
and i have no problem doing what it tkes to raise the ceiling to 10' if that's optimal

 

[delta9nxs]

AWSOME!!!!!! THANK YOU!!! makes perfect sense! now i can start building To be clear...in the future when im trying to dial the system in and i want to talk about air gap adjustment...the measurement point would be from top of rez level to??? ...top of rez bucket,,orr bottom of planter basin,, orr am i being too ticky tack on this??

the water level in the entire system is controlled by a float valve. the 3.5 gal buckets are 11" tall so a 7" water level gives you a 4" air gap.

 

[delta9nxs]

i would like to share a little background so that you understand where my line of questioning is coming from...
My experience with growing consists of two 3K runs of Big Tokes Bio Buckets..... both runs where a Pineapple Kush... the first run was amazing (for me anyways),,,the second run was a root rot spider mite shit show.
I feel this info is pertinent as the first run the biggest problem i had was keeping the monsters away from the lights (8'ceilings). I have 3 xxl lights and I would like to head in an efficient direction (i am not afraid of work).....
so my question is in regards to light vs canopy management... bush, scrog,or what are your thought on that set up Superweed showed in his 12PPK??
and i have no problem doing what it tkes to raise the ceiling to 10' if that's optimal

you started in bio-buckets? you must enjoy challenges! i'm a bio-bucket refugee myself and, like you, had some spectacular runs and some miserable failures.

i can remember staying up all night monitoring solution and checking on plants. worried to death that they were all going to lay down and die before dawn!

you will find the ppk boring by comparison. it's a standing joke among ppk users that we have to find time consuming hobbies because there is nothing to do but watch the plants grow.

about your ceiling and lights. i feel 8' is too low for horizontal lighting with most styles except for tightly controlled sogs and scrogs.

even though i have gone back to horizontal because of the de lighting i think vertical bare bulbs are the shit in a low ceiling room.

it would be helpful to know how big your space is and how many plants you want to run.

 

[p5150]

room is 11'x11'x8't with the ability to have rez, or others outside if necessary for space

 

[delta9nxs]

room is 11'x11'x8't with the ability to have rez, or others outside if necessary for space

that's just about perfect for 4 plants and 5 vertical lights in the x pattern.

i've got friends here who pull 10 lb's regularly with that set up with a 4-5 week veg.

 

[p5150]

to be honest i'm really keen on your "perpetual" train of thought....... im not looking to break any land speed records... just something "Hand Built" that i can be proud of!!!!along with reaping the benefits of course

 

[Ravenboy]

big + for recommendation of more vertical space !! I flipped at 12 inches, heavily LSTd plants, and they still got to over 4'. PPK plants grow REALLY fast.

my last grow (my first PPK grow) was in two - 2 meter high, 1 meter square tents. I went horizontal (have a lot of LED panels) and lst'd to keep the plants lower, which extends the veg period too much (heavy let slows them) . . I wish I could use my 9 foot high ceiling height but would have to build racks for lighting if I use LED panels horizontally. I can't hang them from the ceilings, I am in a rented apartment, and don't know if they can bear the weight, and don't want to find out the hard way (ceiling looks like 2 inches of plaster over 2 inches of concrete)

still Im not complaining about the yield even in a 2 meter high tent, but I will never see 4 pounds even from 6 plants (I did get 2 pounds 10 ounces from 6)

 

[ozzieAI]

man i can only dream of having the set ups you do delta...but alas i can only look on and follow your grows...

keep on keeping on...

btw have to ask have you considered using leds?

cheers

 

[delta9nxs]

to be honest i'm really keen on your "perpetual" train of thought....... im not looking to break any land speed records... just something "Hand Built" that i can be proud of!!!!along with reaping the benefits of course

to run a perpetual you must have a dedicated veg room separate from your flower area.

with four plants in the 11x11 you could harvest a plant every 2-2.5 weeks.

but be aware that your biggest problem will be controlling pests. in a perpetual room you never have the chance to clear the room and do the scorched earth thing.

so you cannot wait until you actually see something on your plants to act.

you must pre-emptively treat your plants starting in early veg as soon as they are rooted.

i use dyna-grow neem and dr bronner's blue label castile soap at 1 oz neem to 1/2 oz dr bronner's soap per gallon and spray vegging plants every 4th day.

if you start early and stay religious this will not only control the bugs but will help prevent powdery mildew as well.

here in oregon I-5 should be called the Great Mite Way because there are probably more mites per mile than people. all traveling in comfort and style on clones in the trunks of cars.

but how you set up is all about you and your needs! you may have medical plant count limits that you want to comply with. you may live in a state with sentencing laws based on plant counts.